4-5-1 We Have To Stick With This Formation...

[spudski]

... For the sake of building confidence and because of the lack of ability and quality in both defence and midfield, we need imho, to stick to a 4-5-1 formation for a while.

I hope Milley realises this. In his latest comments re the Donny game, he says 'we were more than comfortable for the first 60 mins'.

It's no coincidence then, that he took Kilkenny off on 59 mins. What was he thinking...why did he do that? I'd love to know.

For me, Kilkenny is the one person that is able to control the game and pass. We need him on the pitch.

I have a friend who is a Leeds fan, he told me it is no coincidence that when they went on a poor run last season, Kilkenny wasn't playing.

Personally I would also drop one winger. Allow the winger to roam from left to right. Play Kilkenny deep, Albert as the winger, and 3 from Skuse, Elliot, JCR and Cisse in the middle. Stead and Pitman are luxurys at the moment. We need to shore up, get some confidence, then think about 4-4-2 in the future.

Wingers...we all love to see a winger flying down the flank, get to the bye line and get in a telling cross. But when was the last time we actually witnessed goals coming from crosses on a regular basis?

I read today in the Gaurdian, that in the Prem last year, from approxiamately 15000 crosses only 150 goals were scored... 1%.

Surely it's time for British managers to realise why most European teams don't play with two out and out wingers.

Any thoughts?

[City1984]

I see what your saying and agree about Kilkenny,but for the love of god, stop playing pitman on the ******* left. Killa cane off today for pitman, pitman then goes to the left with jcr in the middle ffs.

Get out Brett and get out now. We are screwing up your progress.

Square pegs and all that shit

[BCAGFC]

Until we strengthen our defence and midfield, we have to stick with 5 in midfield.

I wouldn't mind trying 352 at home though, think that makes the defenders make better decisions as they just can't look for cover from their full backs.

3 at the back worked very well at Baaardiff 2nd half and they were tested, even though the Woolies were 3-0 up.

BCAGFC.

[Strictly Obi]

Agree we have to stick with 4-5-1.....but with either Elliot or Skuse not both!

Midfield needs to be Kilkenny and one of Skuse or Elliot (not both), and one of either Bobby Reid or Clarkson (both intelligent players that are comfortable on the ball!

Skuse and Elliot are hopeless on the ball, they are not gifted footballers and Kilkenny desperately needs another midfield teamate who can actually play a bit of football rather than running around 100mph like a headless chicken!

[bristolcitysweden]

... For the sake of building confidence and because of the lack of ability and quality in both defence and midfield, we need imho, to stick to a 4-5-1 formation for a while.

I hope Milley realises this. In his latest comments re the Donny game, he says 'we were more than comfortable for the first 60 mins'.

It's no coincidence then, that he took Kilkenny off on 59 mins. What was he thinking...why did he do that? I'd love to know.

For me, Kilkenny is the one person that is able to control the game and pass. We need him on the pitch.

I have a friend who is a Leeds fan, he told me it is no coincidence that when they went on a poor run last season, Kilkenny wasn't playing.

Personally I would also drop one winger. Allow the winger to roam from left to right. Play Kilkenny deep, Albert as the winger, and 3 from Skuse, Elliot, JCR and Cisse in the middle. Stead and Pitman are luxurys at the moment. We need to shore up, get some confidence, then think about 4-4-2 in the future.

Wingers...we all love to see a winger flying down the flank, get to the bye line and get in a telling cross. But when was the last time we actually witnessed goals coming from crosses on a regular basis?

I read today in the Gaurdian, that in the Prem last year, from approxiamately 15000 crosses only 150 goals were scored... 1%.

Surely it's time for British managers to realise why most European teams don't play with two out and out wingers.

Any thoughts?

I believe you are absolutely right.

[notsobigfatdave]

Some fair points but I dont agree...

Youre never gonna win games consistantly, especially away, with five in midfiled and one lone striker. even if its Diago Maradonna in his heyday

[Murraysrightplum]

I agree but I didn't see Kilkenny showing for the ball at all today, in fact I didn't see him do anything. We need to drop skuse and play Reid (or a new signing) behind the lone striker. Maynard was so isolated it was unbelievable.

[Aztec]

John,

Agree about Clarkson as an AM option........ he played the gap behind the strikers a few times when GJ was playing with a 3 5 2 (or 3412) and looked tidy!!!!

[ateyomike]

IMO really really dont like 5 4 1 think in the long run it will never work or be a good system for wnything except failure sorry sorry to be soo negative its the worst possible football system in the world never had worked and never will

[ateyomike]

never liked clarkson as an out and stiker but once he was put in midfield felt he blossomed as a player for us felt his role was to be more deeper

[123456789000]

Agree we have to stick with 4-5-1.....but with either Elliot or Skuse not both!

Midfield needs to be Kilkenny and one of Skuse or Elliot (not both), and one of either Bobby Reid or Clarkson (both intelligent players that are comfortable on the ball!

Skuse and Elliot are hopeless on the ball, they are not gifted footballers and Kilkenny desperately needs another midfield teamate who can actually play a bit of football rather than running around 100mph like a headless chicken!

Unless you go to reserve games then I seriously doubt you have seen enough of Reid to come to that conclusion. And as bad as the football is, I don't want to see Clarkson anywhere near the football pitch, particularly in midfield where we are weak.

[Mr Popodopolous]

... For the sake of building confidence and because of the lack of ability and quality in both defence and midfield, we need imho, to stick to a 4-5-1 formation for a while.

I hope Milley realises this. In his latest comments re the Donny game, he says 'we were more than comfortable for the first 60 mins'.

It's no coincidence then, that he took Kilkenny off on 59 mins. What was he thinking...why did he do that? I'd love to know.

For me, Kilkenny is the one person that is able to control the game and pass. We need him on the pitch.

I have a friend who is a Leeds fan, he told me it is no coincidence that when they went on a poor run last season, Kilkenny wasn't playing.

Personally I would also drop one winger. Allow the winger to roam from left to right. Play Kilkenny deep, Albert as the winger, and 3 from Skuse, Elliot, JCR and Cisse in the middle. Stead and Pitman are luxurys at the moment. We need to shore up, get some confidence, then think about 4-4-2 in the future.

Wingers...we all love to see a winger flying down the flank, get to the bye line and get in a telling cross. But when was the last time we actually witnessed goals coming from crosses on a regular basis?

I read today in the Gaurdian, that in the Prem last year, from approxiamately 15000 crosses only 150 goals were scored... 1%.

Surely it's time for British managers to realise why most European teams don't play with two out and out wingers.

Any thoughts?

Agree 100% with this, not much to add really except I think Cisse can also help on the ball retention front, certainly more so than Elliott for example. Unless he is injured mystery to me as to why he's not playing. 1% of goals from crosses is also interesting indeed- often thought too great an emphasis on wingers, especially 'out and out, touchline hugging, chalk on boots' etc. Personally I see 4-4-2 as the failed system in this era realistically but then its all about opinions.

[Mr Popodopolous]

IMO really really dont like 5 4 1 think in the long run it will never work or be a good system for wnything except failure sorry sorry to be soo negative its the worst possible football system in the world never had worked and never will

Depends on the personnel I suppose- Barcelona play a variation of 4-5-1, not bad. Chelsea at the height of the Mourinho era only played one striker with 2 wingers either side. Was a 4-5-1/4-3-3 hybrid. Man Utd when they won the CL 07/08 played a version of 4-5-1 arguably (though it was massively fluid). Far from automatically negative as a formation though- certainly can be but some very good to all time great sides have played it or do play it, such as those I just listed.

[spudski]

Agree 100% with this, not much to add really except I think Cisse can also help on the ball retention front, certainly more so than Elliott for example. Unless he is injured mystery to me as to why he's not playing. 1% of goals from crosses is also interesting indeed- often thought too great an emphasis on wingers, especially 'out and out, touchline hugging, chalk on boots' etc. Personally I see 4-4-2 as the failed system in this era realistically but then its all about opinions.

Unfortunately the FA and all it's level of coaching badges are miles behind the rest of the world. Playing 4-4-2 is ingrained in our system, and wingers are still seen as important. Times have changed, defences are more diciplined, and the winger is largely ineffective these days.

You only have to look at the way Barcelona play. It's all about slow build up play from midfield, retaining possesion, and quick darting runs into space. Many teams are trying to emulate their system, obviously with lesser results. Wingers leave you too open, and tacticians can easily manipulate them.

From what i've seen down at the Gate... Wiggley and Milley are definately of the British coaching set up...diciples almost. It's old hat and rather embarrasing to be honest.

I've had friends over from Italy and Spain recently. They have all commented on how poor technically all our players are, shocked at the basics, and laugh that we pay so much to watch such poor quality. Both described our footballers as Athletes who are fit and can run for 90 mins and some run fast, but few are footballers who can play football properly. I agree with them 100%.

[RedUn]

... For the sake of building confidence and because of the lack of ability and quality in both defence and midfield, we need imho, to stick to a 4-5-1 formation for a while.

Someone - I can't be bothered to look up who* - once said: "Formations don't win matches, Players do"

In any case, a formation is a Tactic (flexible, deployed according to the requirements of the moment) not a Strategy (inflexible, deployed irrespective of opposition / match situation / player availability)

* It have been Sir Alex

[Portland Bill]

Spudski has it spot on in saying that Albert could "float" rather than sticking in the right wing. Teams are doubling up on him now, and full backs are more adept at stopping wingers especially when there 2 of them.

I would like to see Albert in positions where he can run at central defenders, there just not comfortable being run at by a skilful player with pace.

Can remember Jordon playing Gordon Owen in the "hole" years ago, he had a field day against slower centre halfs.

Other Managers know that Albert is our main link from defence to attack and have worked on nullifying that, so it's up to KM and SW to get a step ahead of them.

[marshy]

Unfortunately the FA and all it's level of coaching badges are miles behind the rest of the world. Playing 4-4-2 is ingrained in our system, and wingers are still seen as important. Times have changed, defences are more diciplined, and the winger is largely ineffective these days.

You only have to look at the way Barcelona play. It's all about slow build up play from midfield, retaining possesion, and quick darting runs into space. Many teams are trying to emulate their system, obviously with lesser results. Wingers leave you too open, and tacticians can easily manipulate them.

From what i've seen down at the Gate... Wiggley and Milley are definately of the British coaching set up...diciples almost. It's old hat and rather embarrasing to be honest.

I've had friends over from Italy and Spain recently. They have all commented on how poor technically all our players are, shocked at the basics, and laugh that we pay so much to watch such poor quality. Both described our footballers as Athletes who are fit and can run for 90 mins and some run fast, but few are footballers who can play football properly. I agree with them 100%.

Plenty of teams play/have played 4-4-2 without having a recognized 'winger' in the team. Going way back, for instance, Ramsey's team played a version of 4-4-2 and were referred to as the 'wingless wonders'. Many examples since where the full-backs provide the width and four midfield players occupy the centre ground. We may well have to deploy such a system if we are going to keep five strikers happy rather than use a 4-5-1 which means that either four can't play or some have to be played out of position. For me, with the squad we have, we should be considering a 4-4-2 diamond.

[spudski]

Spudski has it spot on in saying that Albert could "float" rather than sticking in the right wing. Teams are doubling up on him now, and full backs are more adept at stopping wingers especially when there 2 of them.

I would like to see Albert in positions where he can run at central defenders, there just not comfortable being run at by a skilful player with pace.

Can remember Jordon playing Gordon Owen in the "hole" years ago, he had a field day against slower centre halfs.

Other Managers know that Albert is our main link from defence to attack and have worked on nullifying that, so it's up to KM and SW to get a step ahead of them.

Exactly...We are too regimented in our formation. The opposition manager finds it way easy to deploy spoiling tactics against us.

By allowing someone like Albert to float between wings and centrally, it is harder to defend against, as defenders have to keep swapping the man they are marking. I would play Albert as a floating winger, and if all is going well, someone like JCR just behind Maynard, who can run direct centrally. With Cisse, Elliot or Skuse, and Kilkenny dropped in behind to pick up the pieces or defend if the move is broken down.

There are so many advantages to doing it this way. Like you say... Albert is a known quantity now, and there will always be 2 defenders on him. We need to use him differently to before, as he will only suffer. It's not rocket science when you think about it really. Is it?

[mundz18]

Plenty of teams play/have played 4-4-2 without having a recognized 'winger' in the team. Going way back, for instance, Ramsey's team played a version of 4-4-2 and were referred to as the 'wingless wonders'. Many examples since where the full-backs provide the width and four midfield players occupy the centre ground. We may well have to deploy such a system if we are going to keep five strikers happy rather than use a 4-5-1 which means that either four can't play or some have to be played out of position. For me, with the squad we have, we should be considering a 4-4-2 diamond.

Isn't Norwich using that sort of system, with Hoolahan in the hole?

Quite effective if that's the case, stick Albert in the 'hole' I say because were severely lack a link up between midfield and attack.

[DT The Optimist]

Yesterday, we had 4 (FOUR) attempts on goal in 90 mintues. One on target (The goal) 3 off target. We had 52 % of the ball (BBC match statistics) That is simply dire. Swindon, Portsmouth and Ipswich games I have not looked but I suspect a similar ratio. I bet the opposition keeper did not even need a shower after the game

Watching match of the day last night I heard Shearer say any team not creating chances would be in Trouble

What we are playing is simply boring tepid tediuos crab like football. Fans will walk, and sadly some regulars who are not season ticket holders will not pay £30 to watch what is currently being served up. The players have to have movement and quality to be successful in a 4.5.1, particularly at home. We do not have that at present. We might get lucky away from home every so often catching teams on the break (Leicester) but I see nothing to make me think that than 4th from bottom would be a result this year ?

[spudski]

Plenty of teams play/have played 4-4-2 without having a recognized 'winger' in the team. Going way back, for instance, Ramsey's team played a version of 4-4-2 and were referred to as the 'wingless wonders'. Many examples since where the full-backs provide the width and four midfield players occupy the centre ground. We may well have to deploy such a system if we are going to keep five strikers happy rather than use a 4-5-1 which means that either four can't play or some have to be played out of position. For me, with the squad we have, we should be considering a 4-4-2 diamond.

In a perfect scenario, I agree. The whole idea of playing 4-5-1, is to instill some confidence first. If it works, then obviously playing a Diamond formation works in many instances. Tbh... the 4-5-1 should really be broken down into 4-1-3-1-1. Kilkenny deep, 2 holding midfield, Albert floating, Another sticker, then Maynard.

[Murraysrightplum]

I remember crab football at school when the weather was too bad to play outside!

[BcfcAllen]

Look what a run of games can do to an up and coming player. James wilson gets his chance and despite the occasional mistake which is to be expected of a young unexperienced player, he has been a solid defender and is very promising for the future. For this reason i say we have to give young Bobby Reid a run of games in the centre of the park. He looked a class act throughout pre season and i truely believe he could be the answer to our midfield problems. Sit him along side killa and like everyone said, one of marv or skuse and hopefully he can grow like wilson has. You can garauntee that if Bobby is given a chance, he will put in his all to perform unlike the current regulars who are getting to comfortable. Dropping one of them should then make them wake up like we saw from Jamo at the weekend who had an excellent game and this should provide a chain reaction which will hopefully kick everyone into gear and get them playing again.

[arpaul]

4-5-1 away is fine,

But not at home, where the onus is on us to attack, and TRY to win games

[Spud55]

4-5-1 away is fine,

But not at home, where the onus is on us to attack, and TRY to win games

I don't understand why 4-5-1 has to be negative, Man City played what was essentially a 4-5-1 on saturday and scored 5 goals and could have easily had another 5, don't see why 4-5-1 has to be negative.

It can be negative in that you can have a flat 3 holding players and two wide players and use the 3 to crowd out the opposition midfield and stop the ball reaching their strikers, or you can play with 2 wingers, 2 ball playing defensive midfielders and an out and out attacking midfielder.

There is no reason why this midfield couldn't be inherantly attack minded,

---------------------Cisse----------Kilkenny--------------------

--Adomah--------------------------------------------Bolaise---

-----------------------Pitman/Stead/Clarkson--------------------------

---------------------------------Maynard---------------------------------

Thats a 4-5-1 and it's not even close to being a defensive set up, especially if you can get Bolaise, Adomah and the pitman/stead/clarkson player breaking beyond Maynard, if one of Stead, Pitman or Clarkson do a good enough job in that role, when you go away and want to be more solid you can swap Kilkenny for Skuse and have 2 holding players, or if you want you can push Kilkenny into the more advanced role and allow him to dictate play from further up the pitch.

4-5-1 is a great formation as if set up right can be inherantly defensive and attacking at the same time, as long as your wingers are prepared to put a shift in to track back, Barcelona play only one recognised striker in their team (and he plays on the left) they essentially play 4-1-5 with busquettes sitting, and then Messi, Inniesta, Xavi, Villa and Pedro being pretty much interchangable, none of them play as an out and out striker and that's what mkaes them almost impossible to defend against as your center backs do not know what to do as they have nobody to mark as they all drop so deep and then when one of the players has the ball the other 4 all break infront of him, which either openes up huge gaps in the defence when the close the man with the ball down, or allows the player with the ball to get running and then the dfence have real problems.

4-5-1 is in my view the best all round formation to play, as it allows you to play a set system so the players all know their role but can be with a couple of tweaks to personel can be a completely different tactic.

It's also the only formation i can see that we actually have the players to be effective in, but it does mean leaving out some players that Millen seems loathed to do, JCR can't play as a winger as he can only move sideways and rarely looks to run beyond his man without the ball and would rather stand facing the wrong way waiting for the ball to feet, and you can't play as a winger if you only ever cut inside as even the worst full backs will not struggle when they know exactly where a player is going. From what i've seen of the lad from Plymouth Bolaise looks as if he could like adomah play as a winger, woolford i'm not so sure about.

It also means you can't play Elliot most of the time, Elliot is so bad at passing that in a team designed to retain possesssion he's a complete waste of space, Skuse can at least pass the ball, so could replace Cisse without too much trouble.

[foghornred]

It's a good formation if you have he right one up front who can hold the ball up or win headers to flik on.

We do not have that player in the club so we will have to sell Maynard to get a Kitson,Davies,Drogba or Crouch.

[arpaul]

I don't understand why 4-5-1 has to be negative, Man City played what was essentially a 4-5-1 on saturday and scored 5 goals and could have easily had another 5, don't see why 4-5-1 has to be negative.

Exactly. As I said. 4-5-1 is fine when playing away.

To be honest I pay very little attention to the Premier League, but I'm certain Manchester City were away at Tottenham Hotspur on Saturday?

Our problem is that Millen sets up 4-5-1 in order not to lose at home.

I've said it numerous times on this forum; Home form is where survival will be secured.

We have to set about beating sides at Ashton Gate.

We have to take the game to our opponents.

We have to defend higher up the field.

We have to press our opponents into mistakes inside their own half, not retreat.

We have to control the tempo of the game.

We have to stretch opponents defence wide.

We have to support from midfield.

We have to believe that we have the ability within the team to make things happen.

Under Millens 4-5-1 we are failing to achieve any of the above.

[Mr Popodopolous]

It's a good formation if you have he right one up front who can hold the ball up or win headers to flik on.

We do not have that player in the club so we will have to sell Maynard to get a Kitson,Davies,Drogba or Crouch.

A big header winning striker is not a pre-requisite for a lone striker. What are Messrs Berbatov, Villa, Benzema like in the air? A technical player can do that role provided they receive adequate support. Bit of a myth that a lone striker needs to be big- provided the support is there.

Exactly. As I said. 4-5-1 is fine when playing away.

To be honest I pay very little attention to the Premier League, but I'm certain Manchester City were away at Tottenham Hotspur on Saturday?

Our problem is that Millen sets up 4-5-1 in order not to lose at home.

I've said it numerous times on this forum; Home form is where survival will be secured.

We have to set about beating sides at Ashton Gate.

We have to take the game to our opponents.

We have to defend higher up the field.

We have to press our opponents into mistakes inside their own half, not retreat.

We have to control the tempo of the game.

We have to stretch opponents defence wide.

We have to support from midfield.

We have to believe that we have the ability within the team to make things happen.

Under Millens 4-5-1 we are failing to achieve any of the above.

4-5-1 or a variant thereof (4-3-3/4-2-3-1/4-2-1-3) has bene played at home to great effect by many sides. Amongst them Mourinho's Chelsea, Barcelona, Real Madrid, Inter when they won the treble, Bayern that same year aznd other lesser but still pretty good sides- Valencia being one, Liverpool being one until it all finally went tits up under Benitez. Yeah it can be done, however I agree entirely about many of your points- but a 4-4-2 isn't the be all and end all in order to press high- Barca play 4-5-1/4-3-3 yet they're one of the hardest working sides without the ball around. With our personnel a 4-4-2 can leave us too open hence susceptible to being hit on the break, inability to get a good spell of possession etc.Controlling possession at home enables us tog radually build and disrupts the rhythm of the opposition. Far better that than to be overly attacking and get hit on the break due to gaps in midfield.

Control the midfield, control the game!

[arpaul]

4-5-1 or a variant thereof (4-3-3/4-2-3-1/4-2-1-3) has bene played at home to great effect by many sides. Amongst them Mourinho's Chelsea, Barcelona, Real Madrid, Inter when they won the treble, Bayern that same year aznd other lesser but still pretty good sides- Valencia being one, Liverpool being one until it all finally went tits up under Benitez. Yeah it can be done, however I agree entirely about many of your points- but a 4-4-2 isn't the be all and end all in order to press high- Barca play 4-5-1/4-3-3 yet they're one of the hardest working sides without the ball around. With our personnel a 4-4-2 can leave us too open hence susceptible to being hit on the break, inability to get a good spell of possession etc.Controlling possession at home enables us tog radually build and disrupts the rhythm of the opposition. Far better that than to be overly attacking and get hit on the break due to gaps in midfield.

Control the midfield, control the game!

There's a lot of numbers to take in here Mr Popodopolous!

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against 4-5-1.

What I'm against is the negative style of play. Under Millen the system doesn't appear to work at Ashton Gate.

Millen can play any formation he likes, but the style is woeful. To make any formation work, you have to have the ability to instill a "pass and move" attitude into the players.

I agree about controling midfield. Unfortunately, ours sit so deep they hand control and initiative to the opponents; especially at home.

Ipswich were a prime example. They looked world beaters at Ashton Gate, and as suggested on here, "certs for a play off berth". Since then, they've been spanked week in, week out.

[Mr Popodopolous]

There's a lot of numbers to take in here Mr Popodopolous!

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against 4-5-1.

What I'm against is the negative style of play. Under Millen the system doesn't appear to work at Ashton Gate.

Millen can play any formation he likes, but the style is woeful. To make any formation work, you have to have the ability to instill a "pass and move" attitude into the players.

I agree about controling midfield. Unfortunately, ours sit so deep they hand control and initiative to the opponents; especially at home.

Ipswich were a prime example. They looked world beaters at Ashton Gate, and as suggested on here, "certs for a play off berth". Since then, they've been spanked week in, week out.

100% agree on the bit I bolded arpaul, yeah more dynamism is necessary and no mistake. Our counterattacks are painstakingly slow at least from what I've seen at home. Fast counterattacking or patient passing but to bring in patient counterattacking and a fair amount of long ball stuff is counterproductive. Pass and move would be excellent- with our team though like I say, I think we'd have a good chance of being overrun or outplayed in the possession/control stakes in a 4-4-2.

let's say for arguments sake that we are going to play on the counter a bit more even at home- then it must, absolutely must be quick, rapier like breaks- not the slow ponderous 'counterattacking' we have- worst of all worlds.