Experience And "hasn't Done It At This Level"

[Esmond Million's Bung]

Righty, great post but snipped it as just want to answer these points.

Lee Clark has been at Huddersfield for a while and is being bank rolled to get promotion. In his third season with them now and has blown 2 playoffs. A Danny Wilson in the wings I fear, and after being on a 3 1/2 year contract is now on a rolling 12 monther. Given if he doesnt get promoted this time it may be end of the line for a Huddersfield who have thrown everything but the kitchen sink to get up under the current boss. Sure he has a fantastic record and I dont think they have lost in the league yet this season either, but it is beginning to get to a time where he has to step up to the plate with the resources he has had and not be the nearly man.

Karl Robinson is afaik the youngest manager in the football league at 31. He has had 18 months or so in position at MK Dons and has got lots of accolades for being the youngest this and the youngest that. For sure he has done some fine work, Finishing 5th in his first season in charge, but also having a very leaky defence. Scored 68 or similar and conceded 60. Given our current issues with defence that have now stretched at least 3 different managers would he be the man to fix them? This season the defence has seemingly much improved only conceding around 10 which is why the MK Dons are now 2nd iirc. However in saying all of that he has yet to achieve if that makes sense. Villas Boas who is older than Robinson, but not by much. Boas turned around Academica before Porto, blitzed Porto and won everything he could and is now 'home' at Chelsea, after being a scout under Mourinho. Robinson though is doing things of a much lower impact, I also have a feeling that John Gorman is his assistant, would we want him back for a 2nd time if Robinson was to come?

Derek McInnes, came up when Coppell or GJ went iirc, I asked some Scots fans what they thought at the time, and they laughed at us in no certain terms. This still holds true today and the terms 'Bunch of thugs' has come up time and again. Currently has Jody Morris as club Captain and it goes from there. Challenge Cup with was afaik 4 seasons ago and had a minus 20 goal difference last season, scoring 23 and conceding 43 again doesnt inspire confidence as the way forward, despite a better showing this time.

Sean O Driscoll, basically, Ive said this else where on here, his Win Percentages at Bournemouth and Doncaster were around 36%, now whatever plaudits he has for playing neat or attractive football, it doesnt translate into consistent results. Blackpool proved it could be done with a zero budget or at least a very limited one, whilst Donny floundered about because of injury excuses last year, but as for the rest of it the stats speak for themselves. Also the last team to appoint a manager from a team below them or who had left a team below them in this league whilst in or near the relegation places was PNE with Darren Ferguson and we all know how well that worked out. 1 win in 19 in the current league suggests the man needs a break and then to comeback with someone else rather than straight into yet another relegation fight.

Mark Robins. Decent at Rotherham, appalling at Barnsley has an equivical record at this level to the manager we have just sacked in terms of results with 31.58% vs 31.52% Again was burnt out with politics at Barnsley and may not fancy going straight back into a relegation/bottom of the table scrap. Furthermore does nothing to dispell the jobs for the oldboys ethos. Finally, needs to buy in to get success has brought a plethora of players at both clubs he has been at and cant work with what he has to start.

Paul Tisdale, Seemingly great managerial skills on paper with all those promotions and so on, plays nice attractive football, however has the strongest links with city already than any other manager mentioned. Ex- Player, but not only that, has signed plenty of players from our club direct or who have played for the club in recent times including Keohane, Edwards, Noble, Stewart, Russell, Danny Coles, Scott Goldbourne and Ryan Harley. This is the thing that sets the alarm bells ringing for me to be honest. He is too close to the club, its too cosy and instead of managing the 'tribute' team he would be doing the real thing. and for some reason it doesnt sit well Sorry

Huddersfield are 35 games unbeaten, Lee Clark must be doing something right. Play off games are cup finals and throw up odd results

[bcfcnick]

I'd lean towards Tisdale but take the point that it might work better if he came as a package with Steve Perryman who would make a great director of football. I think that would be unlikely as I've got a feeling that Perryman is invested in Exeter and has got financial links as well as a soft spot for the Club. I couldn't see him moving.

[the1stknowle]

Im only going off what people have said for this one. tbf looking at the most recent of stuff I cant tell either way Last season only scoring 23 goals and conceding twice that is something of a worry in a league that is percieved (weather it is or not) to be much worse than our current one

Maybe it is maybe it isnt, but the reasons I gave inc 1 in 19 at this level, wanting to deal with a squad in turmoil etc etc and the win percentage as a secondary thing dont stack up even with th injuries. Ive looked at the 'conditions' at both, but they both scream that although its lovely football it doesnt produce results, and the most recent run isnt encouraging as per the PNE comparison from hiring managers in the same league below

Connections count for diddly squat, see Wigley, S and the Caulker signing and lack of signings since to do with his heightened position or again Ferguson, D and PNE. Those on loan despite being from United hardly set the world alight there. How has Robins garnered a reputation at Barnsley?

Yes, seriously. All people are allowed irrational fears, this happens to be mine. I fear as an ex player and part of a 'tribute' act its too close to home, despite all the positives in his favour. Its the best fit because he is 'local' and the best of a local bunch, worries me some what. and hasnt had to deal with a situation as is. We have been there before with lots of positives etc and a better way of playing with Benny, bizarrely enough, but it didnt work and he got completely destroyed for trying it by the faithful. How is Tis going to be any different if the results dont pick up, yet the playing style changes.

Thatmay well be, but exactly how many promotions has Lee Clark had despite this wonderous record? Its very similar to what we had under Wilson (13 or 14 straight wins or similar and still we didnt get promoted. Ring any bells?), in terms of nearly and not quite, again has had cash to spend whether on full transfers or Bosman's and again no experience of picking up a team as disjointed as this and working potentially under a slashed budget. Also suspect Mcdermott is the key here and if not allowed to bring in staff as Sexton alluded to, there may well be issues.

On the connections thing - I'll give you its not an important criteria, but it hardly counts for nothing. All you've done is give a few examples where it hasnt worked. I'll give you examples where it has. Darren Ferguson this season with the Utd players, Brendan Rodgers and Scott Sinclair and Fabio Borrini, Bournemouth and Jermain Defoe and Rio Ferdinand. These loans happened only because of personal connections. But this is a side point.

I'll take your point on O'Driscoll and if he hadnt have won 1 in 19 we'd be looking at paying a million quid comp for him rather than pick him up for free. Maybe he is in a rut. Personally I dont think so but at least it's a valid point.

On McInnes - it might be an inferior league to ours but there is the other side of that same coin: he has an inferior team in that inferior league. Everything is relative in football. Relative to the teams in your league. He's done well to get them promoted in his first full season in charge and then keep them in the SPL. I dont know who these Scottish lads youve talked to are but most Glaswegians have no time for any other clubs. And also its just so anecdotal - there are plenty of people on this forum saying they've talked to Scottish fans who have only good things to say about McInnes. Certainly he is rated in the game as West Brom, Burnley and Brentford all have registered confirmed approaches for him.

On Tisdale - I just dont understand your point. I know you say its irrational which self-evidently I cant argue against. But a "tribute" team. It just makes no sense as a concept and if you're the board, that's not going to run through your head. All you're talking about is a geographical coincidence that makes it easier for him to attract players that leave city. He hasn't tried to build a wicker man style tribute to his lords Bristol City in the hope that would really impress us and we'd give him a job.

I dont think anyone here is pushing tisdale because he's local or that he played a handful of games. I barely remember him playing for us. And we certainly dont get a lot of exeter city news on htv. He's being pushed because he has a management record that it would be very, very hard to better.

How many new managers stay continuously employed for their first 10 years in management? And suffer no relegations? Across 2 different teams? Spending money once? And gaining 6 promotions?

Come on, if you're the board and you ignore this, admittedly irrational, "tribute team" thing then that is an impressive cv that you would be neglectful in your job to ignore.

[the1stknowle]

Looks like Forest have the same ideas in appointing a lower profile, successful coach:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2011/oct/03/karl-robinson-paul-tisdale-nottingham-forest

[the1stknowle]

So in general signing Marquee players that arent your own and developing them is the way forward? Especially when we have a 'great' academy. Something has to give and they cant co exist or development from the academy in house will have to be stifled. Since the transfer window came in Loans are pretty much transfers in all but name to circumvent regulations. The issue is that instead of being used of cover then signed after wards, bigger clubs are using the loans for development without the risks and this is now to the detriment of people coming through in house. Teams are actively relying on loans as being the Golden Goose, see Caulker ,S last season

FWIW The Bournemouth connection stems from Harry's days as manager there and iirc both players were loaned to Mal Machin then manager. Redknapp still lives in Sandbanks iirc as for Ferguson Wootton and Tunnicliffe are the loanees, and its not as if they are even the pick of the loans, with the better players now going to Prem clubs, so is infact getting the dross, the sub Robbie Savages the Joe Roberts and the George Switzers of the Man Utd 1992 youth team for example, and they treat it as if they have recieved manna from heaven by getting these players as if somehow they are brilliant because of the name Man Utd. That is fundamentally a growing problem. So no I dont thing that personal connections arent that important. but thats just my view

Scots fans Ive talked to are Motherwell, Dundee and Aberdeen fans amongst others, a nice mix tbf. If they are wrong they are wrong. Also just because he is highly rated doesnt mean that it translates across leagues and will be a sudden success down here either. Scottish football is really struggling and some of the players that make up his team and others in the SPL come from Champs level or lower Sam Parkin for example for St Johnstone. Heck even the likes of Rangers or rather Celtic are going to the Champs for their first team signings now Joe Ledley and Gary Hooper and the likes of Motherwell signing Nicky Law and so on. Back to McInnes, some St Johnstone fans have also commented that if the pitch isnt great then the passing game goes to pot and that there is no plan B and that would worry me some what

By tribute I mean in the sense that its emulating the club in all but name anyway. As said its not a rational thing. As for a record that's harder to better, is his appointment going to be good for the club. Is he good for getting the best out of players here or signing more to sort his own things out. What would he be like with a relatively massive step up in money and stuff. What would his plans for the club be. Is he happy where he is? does he want to step up? Does he even want to come here after the way he was treated before and so on? The list is vast and infinite

As an aside I have a a feeling that him and Robins played together at Panonios in the late 1990's

I dunno how many managers stay incontinous employment with no relegations, but id wager that there are more than meets the eye. I ve not got the time to look into it but im sure they exist though. Team Bath was a great experiment getting ex- pros and so forth back into football after injury or other such stuff. They started at a very low level and the players that they had were miles better than the leagues they were playing in and this was still true after Tisdale left as they got promoted to the Conference South and finished 11th in their one and only season up there (unless my brain's melding things together in which case Ill concede Im wrong).

Tis has done well for Exeter, until he got promoted to League One. There are two ways of looking at it. He did brilliant with no cash and great football, or looking at an 18th, 8th, 23rd (currently) that he may have found his level. Now he could go onwards and upwards this is true. I'm looking at the likes of Paul Lambert ( however what I thinks stands Lambert out is that he did his badges whilst at Dortmund iirc and knows a different way of playing and coaching than the usual and leads to a different conversation about coaching in this country in general) to say that it can be done, with the added impetus of good ground works already laid in a number of cases. But conversely it could all be too much and we sink like a stone back into the pit oblivion from which we came

We dont have the luxuary to spend time sorting this out this time, our previous manager who was a great and respected coach remember didnt address properly many long standing issues and according to many and the club is a mess top to bottom. Its easy to say we could drop down and come back stronger but those teams that have done it in Recent times, Man City, Norwich etc havent had the SMP regulations to contend with and were we to go down (coming in next season iirc 60% wages to turnover, much more punitive that the Champs one. as in we wont be able to replace all those OOC players and indeed may have to trim even further), whilst this rebuilding phase was going ahead then Tis would need to hit the ground running sort the club out and maintain results on the pitch, whilst coming off his own fight to stay in league one presently. Its a tough ask and a magic wand will not solve it.

Yes there are tonnes of ifs and buts, but at the moment conjecture is all that we have. However Im not trying to be blindsided by everything and look and the positives and the negatives of the managers that people would like to see and in this case, all those suggested have draw backs other than the obvious they havent managed in this league for very long, or havent had the cash or whatever tertiary things people want to use as a basis for being anti them.

Not all is sweetness and light for all possible candidates and a more balanced approach for this board is a refreshing change

I dont know what you're getting at with the loans thing. Yes, they were harry redknapps and mel machin's connection. that's a personal connection, no? But these are side points for another time. I know some people like the loans system. Some don't. Thats not what Im arguing. Im just saying that whilst it is in place, connections in the game have some importance. Like I say, a side point. I consider connections in the game very low down in the qualities we;re looking for.

The McInnes stuff is all too anecdotal to debate. He said, she said, some have commented, all these scottish fans surveyed from all these different clubs. We can see from this forum today that no football fans can agree on what is a successful manager and what isn't... And even if you accept he is successful then you're right, it doesnt mean that success will translate across leagues. But similarly, success in the same league doesnt necessarily, nor more frequently, translate across clubs. There are no guarantees so this point can be made of every candidate.

However, whilst I accept your aiming for balance and Im definitely keen on that on here, for me, a lot of your analysis of Tisdale's career is overly negative. I dont see how you can say he's found his level or even might have found his level. Finishing 8th with Exeter then selling his best players and not spending anything to replace them. Say his level was the best manager in the world. Surely you can't expect him to come up through the leagues with Exeter until eventually winning the champions league? In which case, he has to plateau somewhere. Eventually a club, or rather the squad, will have to peak but that doesnt mean the manager has. Where would Jose Mourinho have this Exeter squad?

And I dont buy for a minute that there are a surprising number of managers in continual employment for 10 years. What number is "more than meets the eye"? Fergie, wenger, john coleman, moyes, tis, Nigel clough.. reckon thats it. Might be a few more. That's pretty decent company, no?

But its all conjecture and how you present the facts, right? We can each paint our chosen candidates qualities in glowing terms and downplay the negatives. As you hint at, only one way to find out what his level is and that is to give him a go. I say his record says he deserves a chance, he has clear talent, and he is what we are looking for. That's not the same as saying he'll guide us to easy promotion. Maybe it wont work out. No one has a crystal ball. All you can do is look to appoint the best managers out there that fit your club. And minimum Tisdale warrants an interview.

PS Having seen him play, I'll bet you a cheeky tenner that you look back in 5 years time at calling Ryan Tunnicliffe "dross" and "sub robbie savage" and freely admit that you were very, very wrong.

[Matty-H]

Lots of talk in here of managers like Tisdale introducing flowing, passing football. I'm of the opinion that you can't polish a turd. The turd being our squad on the whole. You can't just implement those tactics to a squad not capable and severely lacking in confidence overnight. It takes time, and time is something we don't have. We are bottom and in risk of being cut adrift from mid table. Anyone that comes in and tries to get a poor squad playing a beautiful passing game and expecting it to just work is going to take us down, in my opinion. Not that I actually think any manager would. There's a lot of idealistic and unrealistic stuff on here the last 24 hours or so. It's going to be an ugly battle. I just hope we have the balls.

[Mighty Squirrel Kingdom]

This is one of the best discussions I've ever read on here.

The key question for me about any appointment is how the new boss would respond if the worst happens and we find ourselves back in League 1. If we'd found ourselves in trouble next March or April with City in a perilous position at the bottom of the table, then Tisdale or Robinson would be the right decision.

However, the clocks haven't gone back yet, there's still three quarters of the season left and there's still time to make sure we finish 21st or better, which has to be the target for the new boss. The only thing that can screw it up is a decent run in the FA Cup...oh no, why did I even think that...

[The Bard]

Lots of talk in here of managers like Tisdale introducing flowing, passing football. I'm of the opinion that you can't polish a turd. The turd being our squad on the whole. You can't just implement those tactics to a squad not capable and severely lacking in confidence overnight. It takes time, and time is something we don't have. We are bottom and in risk of being cut adrift from mid table. Anyone that comes in and tries to get a poor squad playing a beautiful passing game and expecting it to just work is going to take us down, in my opinion. Not that I actually think any manager would. There's a lot of idealistic and unrealistic stuff on here the last 24 hours or so. It's going to be an ugly battle. I just hope we have the balls.

You can polish a turd. But it will still be a turd. Just a bit shiny. As long as we're not one of the 3 worst turds come May we'll all be happy.

Why is everyone going on about not having time? We have 36 games over 7 months. A good manager will have his style of play imposed within 6 games or so. We need someone with a clear idea of how they want to play and the ability to convey that to his players, giving them belief that it will produce results. Our squad is good enough to get out of this mess. We have 2 of the best goalscorers in the division. The manager needs to strike a balance between protecting an inexperienced defence and ensuring that these 2 players get the chances to win us games. Picking Cisse would be the first thing I'd do. If he'd been in the side this year, Millen would still be in a job.

[the1stknowle]

The analysis isnt overly negative its firm but fair, there isnt any evidence whatsoever to suggest that he can do it at a higher level, and many managers have to sell their best players and get on with the job in hand. Some can do it, some cant. Its great that he has only spent 50k on some double barred named dude from Tottenham it really is, but how does that transpose to being great for us. I keep hearing the we are skint discussion and everything is to be done by cutting the cloth. Despite the restrictions Millen still spent well over £2 Million at a conservative guess and that hardly screams out as being a situation whereby we are totally brassic despite the horrendous accounts, which I think are converted to loans from Lansdown rather than stagnate on the balance sheet, though again I may be getting muddled on the last bit.

The point about Mourinho at Exeter relates to Tis this way. I dont think Mourinho would do well at Exeter simply because its a different world to what he has been used to. Certain managers thrive under certain conditions, others fail completely when faced with different conditions. Look at Diaz at Oxford for example, genuine great manager abroad, completely flopped at Oxford, went back to what he knew and won the Argentine league again with San Lorenzo

We have gone down the road of impressive Non League to league and getting a small team to punch above their weight before in Gary Johnson, and in the end the job here became a step to far, that he has sunk back down the leagues and is now managing Northampton in League 2 is indicative of that he plateaued with us and it was a step to far ( people will argue that it was one game away from the promised land, but realistically we had started to go stagnant from Xmas that season and it went downhill from there as his level had been exceeded great for us in the short term, helped to create the current situation we are in in the long term) .

Looking at Tis, then its confirmation that we have form for this type of appointment, and ultimately whilst the manager was undoubtedly great at lower leagues it came undone spectacularly here and has downward spiralled since. Looking at the trends of managers who do this Ie come up and push from Non League, most plateau in the Champs and arent able to push on. Nigel Clough, Steve Cotterill for example have yet to push on after taking Cheltenham and Burton from obscurity to greatness and at present are seemingly stuck here, as in this league. Steve Evans tanked in the league below with Boston and is trying again with Crawley. Iirc only Joe Kinnear and Neil Warnock have gone all the way and done relatively well in this level or above after coming from non league management again I'll stand corrected but the hit rate isnt as high as it could be, What marks out Tis as being genuinely different to that?

Seems like Darren Ferguson doesnt agree at this stage, afaik him and Wotton have been confined to the bench for most of the season thus far, which is hardly fine praise as seeing as much was expected after last years heroics for the Man United Youth Team. iirc Pogba and Ravel Morrison at the gems from the youth team in terms of Man United's Midfield. I know some Reds really rate him, but it does appear to be a sink or swim loan for Tunnicliffe to see if he can make it in the game away from Old Trafford to see if he has it.. The reason I used Robbie Savage, is because many people forget he started at United and he had to do the business else where before eventually coming good. Or despite the talent he could end up dropping through the leagues, people with promise no matter how good have littered the lower leagues despite all their potential promise before now. Ronnie Wallwork, Kevin Pilkington, Ben Thornley, Michael Twiss, Mark Wilson an are names that have drifted down before and werent the greatest and more recently Cathcart, Corry Evans, James Chester, Kieran Lee, Richard Eckersley despite potental have moved away from OT to make it as a pro many of them have earned youth or full honours before they left OT.

Im not saying he wont make or indeed that he isnt good, just that in terms of potential there appears to be other players that are ahead of him in the pecking order at this stage of his career. He may blossom and indeed be push on, its taken Welbeck and Cleverley long enough to step out of the shadows following a number of loans elsewhere. So it can be done, its just whether its done at OT and he pushes on like Gibson or the two Ive just mentioned or falls by the way side and makes it as a pro somewhere else.

Think we're just going to go round in circles here so I'll leave it after this.

1. Gary Johnson in your eyes wasn't a good appointment? Or the job got too much for him because his natural level is League 1/league 2/non-league? Why can't his dip or his "loss of the dressing room" be put down to personality clash? Why does it get put down to his non-league past. Because for 4 seasons his non league past seemed to work pretty well at our league level. But we focus on the failure rather than the success. Would you not take Tisdale saving us from relegation then leading us into mid-table league above before a personality clash between him and Bobby Reid results in his resignation? I'd take that. And I wouldnt be focusing on his resignation. Id be focusing on the 4 years before.

2. Again, I dont buy your Tisdale analysis. All youre doing is pointing to stuff in the past at our club or other clubs, finding tenuous common links and saying history will repeat exactly. You could easily say Tisdale is bald, gary johnson was balding and so they are the same manager. But Pep Guardiola is bald too!

3. You did implicitly call Ryan Tunnicliffe "dross" and that is pretty extreme and normally would suggest you dont think he will become a good player. All Im saying is Ill take the bet that in 5 years time, you look back and of your own free will admit that was a wrong thing to say. If you take back the dross thing and say instead he mightn't fulfill his potential, then fine. He's played in 9 of p'boros 12 games this season and he's only 18. That seems a fine return for a loan player to me.

4. Like I say, no one knows whether Tisdale will work out. But I disagree strongly with your analysis of his career, I do think it's overly negative rather than balanced and I just havent heard an argument from you yet that says, in effect, anything other than "he starts in the lower leagues so maybe that is his level". Maybe it is. But you can equally turn the argument and say until he gets a shot, no one knows. If your argument holds, do all managers need to start in the championship to be a good manager in the championship? Where do you think Alex Ferguson started? David Moyes started in Division One. He's ok though, right?

This "trend" argument you have is again pretty anecdotal and I think you should consider there are other reasons that lower league managers dont get jobs - largely the preconceptions that you expound in your arguments. No women voted in 1910 in the US because the government didn't think they were capable of voting. But the fact that no women voted doesnt prove they werent capable. It proves they didnt have the chance.

5. We're not going to agree on the Tisdale thing and I have a feeling he won't be appointed anyway. But he is seemingly up for the Florist job and so we can see soon, I'm sure, what he will be able to do at this level.

[the1stknowle]

Option 2 there, he tried to succeed at this level and momentum very nearly carried us over the line. Personality Clash, doesnt result in the changes in football style that followed that Xmas. 101 reasons as to why that occured, but he hasnt been the same manager since and is trying to re assert that he can do it again or still has it hence the Peterborough and Northampton appointments.. John Ward was another who could do it lower down the leagues and admitted he couldnt do it up here and quit (among again several reasons as to why he went, not wanting a DoF etc etc)

Im not going to answer on your pure speculation re Tis, because Ive gone into detail or at least hinted at as to why in general managers that drag teams from non league dont succeed at this level. He may be the exception to the rule and having looked into it, I can strike Joe Kinnear from the list ( I got it wrong! it happens cest la vie) leaving Neil Warnock as afaik the only person in recent times to work their way up to the prem from non league management the rest have fallen by the way side whether they change clubs or stay at one which was my point the rest in general get stuck in a rut in this league or return to the lower leagues and dont push on. That's an historical trend, and yes, it can be broken, but the odds dont always add up no matter what the premise is. If we were still in League one then yes I could see having a go on Tis as being a viable option, but we arent.

Lets put the dross comment from post whatever it is in to context

There appears whether is true or not to be a hierarchy of youth players at OT

A grade players stay with the first team as they develop and dont go on loan. Darren Fletcher, Rafael, Fabio etc

B grade players get sent on loan to the Prem or to higher leagues around Europe to learn their trades away from OT. Diouf, Macheda etc

C grade players get sent on loan to championship clubs and then Prem Clubs if they are worthy De Laet, Wellbeck etc

D grade players get sent on loan to League one clubs or lower Norwood, Johnstone etc

At present despite all the potential promise Tunnicliffe would be in grade C for me. if Fergie or his staff really thought he was ready/good enough at this stage then Im sure he would have gone to a lower end Prem Team or someone with a higher profile with Man Utd loanees Some will make it, others as Ive mentioned James Chester and so one will end up in this league. In the grand scheme of things. Clearly he may well progress or blossom and become excellent, but in the interests of parity he could end up like so many others.

Darren Fergusson despite being SAF actually gets a raw deal in terms of loanees. Hull and Watford seeming to be the better beneficiaries at this level.

So Im not writing him off as a footballer nor saying that he isnt any good, just merely pointing out that if he was more highly rated, then surely he would have been kept in house to develop or loaned to the Prem or a favoured club

As for the Peterborough thing, check the stats on Espn 4 starts and 8 subs, he is fringing at Peterborough currently

Not sure what the Ott nature of this is for, but Alex Ferguson started off at East Stirlingshire iirc, then St Mirren ( won the scots league) then Aberdeen ( won the scots league and the Cup Winners Cup) and managed Scotland before he arrived at OT. Moyes did start in the third division of old for sure, and that's still about several levels above where Tis started. Again Im not saying he wont be a good manager. What I am and have said that those that break through from managing at non league are few and far between and of those, not many are successful, and that the natural level appears to be generally struggling in this league or returning to lower levels as is a step too far. Show me how Tis is suddenly going to break that mould and then Im all ears

Here's the main point. I cannot show you Tis will "break the mould". As I hope I showed, I dont buy the break the mould argument. Are you specifically saying people that started in non-league? So Fergie and Moyes who worked their way up dont count? Just to be clear. If that's the case, I would argue that the number who are given a chance is tiny, not just the number that fail (average league manager time in job is around 1.8 years apparently so actually, virtually all managers fail).

Of course I cannot show you how tis would do until someone gives him a chance. But nor can you show me the contrary. He is managing successfully in the second division currently. He's Paul Tisdale - who was going to give him a chance anywhere but the non leagues? So he's earned his place in the higher divisions. To call him a non-league manager when he has clearly shown himself to be above that level seems unfair. And to focus on the fact that he happened to start in non-league over his many other attributes also seems unfair.

Despite an absence of crystal ball, at some point you have to plant your flag and say "for me, this is our man". For me, it's Tisdale or Billy Davies (assuming MoN isnt even in the running) and Tisdale nudges ahead based purely on Billy Davies history of boardroom conflict. Maybe McInnes (I note the St Johnston fan on our forum today praising him to the hilt in contrast to your scottish friends so there are definitely other opinions available on him). And I'd be really happy with SoD too. There are good, gettable candidates out there and my main thrust of this thread is that I want the board to appoint (or more accurately interview) based on managerial talent not reputation or some weird idea of passion or respect from the players.

We're not going to agree and we're kind of going round in circles - Im guessing no one else is reading our long posts now.

Sorry if you thought I was being ott - it's just I radically disagree with what you're saying and struggle to understand some of your points sometimes.

Definitely keen to keep civil and Ive always got nothing but love and respect for my fellow City fans. Even the people calling for Peter Reid and Paulo di Canio I accept have their reasons!

[Jordan Tansley]

I'm still reading them Mr Knowle. Admiring your patience tbh.

I am a big fan of Tisdale, RMLF is a Preston "admirer" and won't have a bad word said about Mr Davies so I won't provoke him by telling you what I think about him!!

[Jordan Tansley]

Hahahahahahahahahahaha

Cheers JT, glad you set out that position. Nevermind Im sure youll get it right one year.

Admirer of PNE... Yeah, Im sure all the PNE fans would say that, Not!

I happen to be exiled up here, but hey why let that spoil a perfectly good assumption. The parallels between the two clubs draw themselves however. But why let that get in the way of speculation?

I couldnt see this thread on the first page, but was enjoying the banter, with the other poster. If you wish to continue this without resorting to spurious personal reasons ( without sign posting them) for being anti Billy Davies or whomever else the go for it. Im all ears

I know you are, I think I actually read one of your posts to the end once and learnt that. I was toying with simply calling you a "Supporter" of PNE tbh, such is the impression you give when talking about them... Very defensive!

You say spurious, but they are not false at all. He is a nasty and vile bloke, he is overtly aggressive towards opposition players, management and least tolerably to the officials. Billy Davies, despite (See here Ralphy, I'm giving him some credit) being a very good football manager in the lower leagues, (Championship and below) is actually a personification of a large amount of things that are wrong with the game.

I am of the belief that the chance that Billy Davies brings success here (about as likely as anyone else really) is not worth the price of losing integrity. I couldn't stomach watching a grown man having a paddy on the touchline or exacerbating heated moments on the pitch.

He is bad news.

[redlandrebel]

I think we need a manager who's on the way up, not already gone as far as they can and not one living on past glory.

Hear hear.

... how much longer...

[Jordan Tansley]

Er whut now? is this your Emile Zola bit? J'accuse and all that?

So again its the personal thing that is anti Davies, I see. As for us having integrity as a club, must be a different Gary Johnson as our manager who deliberately tripped up Chopra at AG or a different BCFC who have in recent times had two of our own players fighting each other in a televised game. Is that the integrity that you are on about? The same integrity that also sees other teams hate us, and Ive proven it on here before including because we have 'a well handy firm' or fans that are despised in terms of football in general,

I'm not quite sure what integrity you think we have to be honest? So on those terms, BD would be a good fit (somewhat tougue in cheek) As Ive said before I dont care about the personality of the manager I care about results end of, and if we hire someone who is a bit dirty or whatever you want to call it but start getting the results then Ill be happy How is that. 'bad news'?

I did think you'd bring GJ up, Thing about GJ is he has a likeable personality, he might well be the "bully" that Robbo believes him to be, he might well have done this that and the other but he is a particularly nice bloke in person and on screen... Billy... good god. I know the Jocks have a few problems with.. you know... pretending to be human but he takes the biscuit.

I think a lot more people "hate" Nottingham Forest on the back of the direction he took them than "hate" us.. I'm sure plenty of fans have experienced seeing Davies laugh and joke about a player who was on the floor in apparent danger like we did when Tyson "did" Gerken. Think that's worse than a cheeky trip on Chopra who was being a right **** at the time.

That's entirely your prerogative Ralphy. Likewise it is mine to want to feel some kind of bond to the manager of my football club. It's hard enough to feel connected to the "big time charlies" that pull on the red shirt, I can't imagine I'd find myself warming to Billy's childish and aggressive pitch side antics.

You said it yourself, we have a mirky reputation as it is, do we really want the only man in football who could possibly make us even more despised at the club? We'd be more popular if we employed "Call me Dave" Cameron and Maggy as joint managers...

[Riaz]

I did think you'd bring GJ up, Thing about GJ is he has a likeable personality, he might well be the "bully" that Robbo believes him to be, he might well have done this that and the other but he is a particularly nice bloke in person and on screen... Billy... good god. I know the Jocks have a few problems with.. you know... pretending to be human but he takes the biscuit.

I think a lot more people "hate" Nottingham Forest on the back of the direction he took them than "hate" us.. I'm sure plenty of fans have experienced seeing Davies laugh and joke about a player who was on the floor in apparent danger like we did when Tyson "did" Gerken. Think that's worse than a cheeky trip on Chopra who was being a right **** at the time.

That's entirely your prerogative Ralphy. Likewise it is mine to want to feel some kind of bond to the manager of my football club. It's hard enough to feel connected to the "big time charlies" that pull on the red shirt, I can't imagine I'd find myself warming to Billy's childish and aggressive pitch side antics.

You said it yourself, we have a mirky reputation as it is, do we really want the only man in football who could possibly make us even more despised at the club? We'd be more popular if we employed "Call me Dave" Cameron and Maggy as joint managers...

How do you know that Davies wasnt laughing at something else?

[Jordan Tansley]

How do you know that Davies wasnt laughing at something else?

He made a gesture like he was sleeping or dead... It was plainly obvious tbh.

[the1stknowle]

So basically, what your saying is its fine if you like the bloke to do childish and immature things, but completely wrong and will drag the name of football into the mud, if you dont like the bloke, despite the misdemeanours being of the same ilk.

Its a very strange way of looking at it and creates an interesting dichotomy, is there more to having the contradictory views than that or is it just plainly because you like one more than the other on a personal level?

I accept that we dont endear ourselves to the general footballing public, and appointing Billy Davies or other of that ilk really isnt going to make it any better or any worse in the short term. I suspect there will be some football fans who will be quite glad we are where we are in the league and not all of them will be affiliated to the Gas. Given that you have accepted that unacceptable behaviour is acceptable if you like the bloke who does it, I cant see what discussions you can have on those grounds, when making exactly the same points against it?

Feel like we've gone off course on this thread.

Surely main point against Billy Davies is that at his last three clubs he has taken a divisive attitude towards "the team" on one hand and "the board" on the other. I accept he is a great manager and fans of his clubs love him. But maybe one of the reasons they love him is they feel on his side because he creates this false dichotomy. Might even be a deliberate tactic.

For the rest of the football league, Nigel Doughty seems like a decent chairman who has pumped a huge amount of his fortune into a club and has brought in high-wage players above championship level to play in that team. Even under McClaren they signed 4 decent Premier League players and kept the majority of their play off squad. But the fans already had it in mind that the board was working against them even though many couldnt quite elucidate why.

I'd be more than happy with BD here as he is obviously very talented. Id actually prefer him to Dave Jones. But there is definitely a trend there to set up a them vs us attitude in relation to the board. And that could be really damaging to us at the moment given our boards relations with our fans. That is my only reservation in regards to Billy Davies.

No manager gets everything they ask for from their board. I'm very much of the opinion that unless it is particularly egregious behaviour by the board, managers should just get on with it. And with ffp coming in, managers that dont will get louder and more divisive during the acclimatisation period. Just think BD would probably be in that group and we could do without that at the moment.

But talent-wise I dont think anyone on this board has any reasonable complaints against Billy Davies. He might be a bit of a numpty, but he's not in the same league of "the world i against me and that's the only reason we lost" as Warnock and I think the personal stuff against him would be easily forgotten were he to take us up the league.

[the1stknowle]

I'm still reading them Mr Knowle. Admiring your patience tbh.

I am a big fan of Tisdale, RMLF is a Preston "admirer" and won't have a bad word said about Mr Davies so I won't provoke him by telling you what I think about him!!

Who said I was MR Knowle? Girls watch football too!

Always glad to see a fellow Tisdale-backer but I've got a feeling the Tisdale campaign is being usurped by the rampaging Derek McInnes. Truth be told, Id be happy with either and indeed 6 or 7 of the names mentioned on these boards. But I wanted to stress in this thread that we should hope our board takes a rational, considered and neutral view, thinks about what we need and what resources we can offer a manager, what our expectations are and then interviews the three or four best candidates that meet those criteria. Then appoints the one that interviews the best in their opinion (and that doesnt mean the one that shouts the loudest or is most animated in the interview!)

The board definitely seem to be taking their time and keeping everything very in house at the moment. I havet heard anything reliable coming from the usual places. I just hope they avoid one of the really divisive candidates like Boothroyd or Reid or Holloway.

I'd really like to get back to the gary johnson early years when pretty much everyone was pulling in the same direction - even if it only lasts 6 months.