Club V Country

[Frank Reynolds]

Don't think it's sad at all to be completely disillusioned by the actions on and off the field of the so called Golden Generation.

I watched the game and to be honest had we not got a goal from a set piece it would have been lamented as an embarrassing performance, The gulf in class (despite the result) was huge. Thankfully Terry was dropped and Lescott was absolutely immense. I hope that the performance/result doesn't cloud over the huge huge problems in English football.

These problems are completely embodied in the adulation Scott Parker has received in the Press since the win. I will happily admit that defensively he is an outstanding player, However he is about as much use going forward and at retaining the football as Marvin "Carthorse" Elliot. He was absolutely atrocious in possession of the ball against Spain, particularly in the first half. I felt so sorry for Darren Bent (Who I don't particularly rate) feeding off the awful scraps of an immobile old man, A centre half played out of position and a bloke who couldn't pass to a team mate without completely stopping the attacking flow of the game if you paid him.

However, Second half I was delighted to see the impact of Rodwell and Welbeck. Both showed promise and a desire to run the channels, which is the only way to win games against Spain. Exploiting the gaps left when they flood forward is a huge deal and with Wilshere, Gerrard and Ashley Young to come back in we could have something resembling a midfield come the Euro's.

A lot of these players aren't going to represent us again following the Euro's, so why bother taking them? If I was to select a side for the Euro's it might not necessarily be the guys with the biggest reputation that went.

I'd love to see something like this come the first game of the groups.

GK: Hart

RB: Walker

CB: Jagielka/Cahill

CB: Lescott

LB: Cole

Holding Midfield: Wilshere

Box to Box: Gerrard

B2B: Rodwell

RW: Theo

ST: Welbeck/Carroll/Bent

LW: Young

I was at Wembley and Scott Parker was our best player by a country mile. Retained possesion well, won the ball and was all over the place.

I also notice that you propose putting our most promising youngster, Jack Wilshere in a role that will stifle his attacking qualities. You also want to play a 3 man midfield with 2 box to box midfielders?! I am very, very glad that you aren't in charge as it would be a bloody shambles.

I don't even care about England but wouldn't wish your football knowledge on all but a couple of teams!

[TRL]

I was at Wembley and Scott Parker was our best player by a country mile. Retained possesion well, won the ball and was all over the place.

I also notice that you propose putting our most promising youngster, Jack Wilshere in a role that will stifle his attacking qualities. You also want to play a 3 man midfield with 2 box to box midfielders?! I am very, very glad that you aren't in charge as it would be a bloody shambles.

I don't even care about England but wouldn't wish your football knowledge on all but a couple of teams!

Haha anyone who has caroll anywhere near the squad, let alone in the team needs their head read. Maybe its a good lineup in FM. I'm not sure wilshire would be good as a holding midfielder, I am uncertain that he has the patience or know how to play the role, I'd rather him linking midfield and attack.

[Jordan Tansley]

I was at Wembley and Scott Parker was our best player by a country mile. Retained possesion well, won the ball and was all over the place.

I also notice that you propose putting our most promising youngster, Jack Wilshere in a role that will stifle his attacking qualities. You also want to play a 3 man midfield with 2 box to box midfielders?! I am very, very glad that you aren't in charge as it would be a bloody shambles.

I don't even care about England but wouldn't wish your football knowledge on all but a couple of teams!

Sorry, but his ball retention was horrendous and I think I could count on one hand the number of times a Scott Parker pass went forward AND reached an England shirt. He may have stopped the Spanish but he did an even better job of stopping us. First half especially he was absolutely terrible. But then again, you seem to be another idiot who falls into the "English way" when it comes to footy.

This idiocy is perfectly shown by your understanding of simple footballing terminology and of Jack Wilshere. Jack plays deep for both Arse and England. That is a fact. Whilst you and I have no credibility in terms of football knowledge both Wenger and Capello are quite highly qualified don't you think?

Holding doesn't mean stifling at all either. Only a complete buffoon would think that. If anything Wilshere would have much more freedom sat a little deeper to orchestrate our attacks. This is the role Xavi plays for Spain... But I suppose that he is stifled?

Again, idiotic understanding of the role of a box to box midfielder. Probably the most attack minded role for a central midfielder running beyond the strikers and getting on the end of the wingers balls. It also means we don't have to sacrifice closing down (Which is a huge part of the way the Spanish play... hmmm) and is an asset that the English side might as well put to some use.

Apologies to other posters if you think my response here is rude, I personally found CityDan's original reply rude and replied with equal levels of respect.

Haha anyone who has caroll anywhere near the squad, let alone in the team needs their head read. Maybe its a good lineup in FM. I'm not sure wilshire would be good as a holding midfielder, I am uncertain that he has the patience or know how to play the role, I'd rather him linking midfield and attack.

Carroll has a big future in the game and in a team that contains out and out wingers and two players who like to get beyond the strikers his hold up play would be very useful. He's nowhere near my first choice but I would rather see him in the side than Bobby Zamora.

As I said previously, Both Wenger and Capello have played Wilshere in a deep role and that is where he looks most comfortable to me. He has the versatility to play all across the midfield and wings of course but his passing and positioning are such that I see him in the Xavi mould as opposed to a Frank Lampard or Steven Gerrard type player.

Got no idea if it would be a good formation on FM, I haven't changed anything tactics wise from what Capello has done for a while now. Just a tinker with the personnel.

[Frank Reynolds]

Were you there? I'm guessing not.

His ball retention was good, as it usually is. I'll ignore the rest of that 'English way' sentence as it's utter bullshit.

And your post RE: Wilshere doesn't mention him playing as a deep-lying midfielder, it meantions him being a 'holding midfielder'. Now as an expert in all things 'footy' (are you 12?) I'm sure that you're aware it's almost universally recognised that a holding midfielder is a player in the mould of Claude Makelele who protects the defence allowing the players who act as a conduit between midfield and attack the freedom to push on. That is not Jack Wilshere. Again I'm assuming that you don't actually watch football because the things you come out with are 99% of the time complete bollocks.

You're not the footballing genius that you evidently think you are, and your condescending tone when arguing about football was the reason for my tone in my previous post.

[Jordan Tansley]

Were you there? I'm guessing not.

His ball retention was good, as it usually is. I'll ignore the rest of that '

Was the game televised?

edit:Oh, no, you went there.

Again, the idea of a holding player is he sits back when the other players flood forward. Hence the term holding. That in no way implies he is defensive. Claude Makelele played as an anchorman. Holding midfielder implies position discipline when in possession, not sitting in front of the defence like an Anchorman.

England have always referred to the deeper midfielder as the "sitter" or "Holder". That was always the argument regarding Lampard and Gerrard in a 4-4-2.

I wasn't condescending at all in the post you replied to. I haven't provoked anything like that kind of arrogant tripe from you so don't try and blame me for the way this conversation has descended.

Fact is, whatever you think about my "terminology" you're completely wrong about the way that side was set out in this hypothetical selection. I don't think anyone else is suffering from the same difficulty in understanding the point I was making so perhaps it's you who's got the problem? Just a thought oh godly one.

[TRL]

Sorry, but his ball retention was horrendous and I think I could count on one hand the number of times a Scott Parker pass went forward AND reached an England shirt. He may have stopped the Spanish but he did an even better job of stopping us. First half especially he was absolutely terrible. But then again, you seem to be another idiot who falls into the "English way" when it comes to footy.

This idiocy is perfectly shown by your understanding of simple footballing terminology and of Jack Wilshere. Jack plays deep for both Arse and England. That is a fact. Whilst you and I have no credibility in terms of football knowledge both Wenger and Capello are quite highly qualified don't you think?

Holding doesn't mean stifling at all either. Only a complete buffoon would think that. If anything Wilshere would have much more freedom sat a little deeper to orchestrate our attacks. This is the role Xavi plays for Spain... But I suppose that he is stifled?

Again, idiotic understanding of the role of a box to box midfielder. Probably the most attack minded role for a central midfielder running beyond the strikers and getting on the end of the wingers balls. It also means we don't have to sacrifice closing down (Which is a huge part of the way the Spanish play... hmmm) and is an asset that the English side might as well put to some use.

Apologies to other posters if you think my response here is rude, I personally found CityDan's original reply rude and replied with equal levels of respect.

Carroll has a big future in the game and in a team that contains out and out wingers and two players who like to get beyond the strikers his hold up play would be very useful. He's nowhere near my first choice but I would rather see him in the side than Bobby Zamora.

As I said previously, Both Wenger and Capello have played Wilshere in a deep role and that is where he looks most comfortable to me. He has the versatility to play all across the midfield and wings of course but his passing and positioning are such that I see him in the Xavi mould as opposed to a Frank Lampard or Steven Gerrard type player.

Got no idea if it would be a good formation on FM, I haven't changed anything tactics wise from what Capello has done for a while now. Just a tinker with the personnel.

Maybe wilshere will be best there, time will tell. Carroll for me is over hyped target man from a bygone era, his finishing is not great, neither is his hold up play. I know he probably won't get another game for capello, but in terms of talent and technique crouch is far better. But 442 with two wingers will disappear from international scene. 433 well I cannot see Carroll in that formation, I see nothing in him to convince me he is even close to an international footballer.

Edit but wilshere as holding midfielder is very different to deep midfielder as you say in your 2nd post. That said I can see him.being pushed up further as his control and technique allow him to attack that space between midfield and defence, where I see him doing more damage.

[Frank Reynolds]

Was the game televised?

and good, you ignore it. Saves me going round in circles proving you wrong.

Deary me, you really are a clown.

You haven't proved anything I've said wrong. You made a whole lot of assumptions, made some casual generalisations about nationality and came across as a div as you often do. You're wrong, plain and simple.

[Jordan Tansley]

Deary me, you really are a clown.

You haven't proved anything I've said wrong. You made a whole lot of assumptions, made some casual generalisations about nationality and came across as a div as you often do. You're wrong, plain and simple.

Knickers in a twist?

As above in the edit... you were far too quick to change your mind and reply.

[Frank Reynolds]

Knickers in a twist?

As above in the edit... you were far too quick to change your mind and reply.

I'm bored of you now darling.

[Jordan Tansley]

I'm bored of you now darling.

[rednotblue]

Parker had a decent game. Ashley Cole had a shocker imho. It seemed every time he got the ball he just stood still and let himself be closed down and all passing momentum was lost. I hope Joe Cole comes back for the euros. He is still the most technically able footballer we have.

[Jordan Tansley]

Parker had a decent game. Ashley Cole had a shocker imho. It seemed every time he got the ball he just stood still and let himself be closed down and all passing momentum was lost. I hope Joe Cole comes back for the euros. He is still the most technically able footballer we have.

Crikey!

[MC RISK77]

Havent been on otib for a week now, but just read responses to my post, thanks everyone enjoyed reading how peoples opinions of England are...

despite being born in this country since the lineker generation i havent really been interested in englands fortunes.....more interested in the azzuri due to sicilian parents, mainly because they are better, but still not overly got an interest...

cue banter of tanks going into reverse etc etc