Youth Players

[Bugben43]

I seem to remember a saints fan saying del doesn't like using youngsters either. God knows what thread it was on, there were loads back then. So I would be very surprised to see the use of our academy improve.

There's a difference using young players that are any use and not using youngsters at all.

The youth structure at Saints was a shambles and it was a fulltime enough job for Del to fix and build a first team that could stay and compete in the SPL. Also the chairman previous and now his son are not fans of the costs of running a programme like this and given the chance would shut it down if they had their own way.

So don't assume that Del doesn't rate youngsters.

He will be delighted you have facilities you have, that their is an academy in place and an infrastructure that can take BCFC forward. Whether he is happy at the way in which your academy is run, is working and who is running it... that will be a matter for him to define by the summer I suspect... when he has retained the Championship status that you need first.

[chipdawg]

Of course i understand that point, my son has been involved in academy football since he was an eight year old and i have travelled the country far and wide and probably visited them all over the last 9 years.

However my reply had nothing to do with your response !!!!!

i simply responded to the comment about Cardiff's academy being light years ahead of Bristol's, that simply isn't true and i simply gave some facts to substantiate my point.

The crisis in Bristol's first team is a completely different discussion to that of the academy, if you watch any academy club, even at the very top, the system rarely produces players who make the first team at the club where they serve.

Generally they are released or find other clubs and either progress from there or drift from the game completely.

At present Bristol's youth team has several players who will in my opinion make it, possibly not at Bristol City but they will make it at some level.

Joe Bryan, Bobby Reid, Aaron Amadi Holloway, amongst the current crop of first year pros for starters, and amongst the first and second year scholars we have some really promising players.

If you watch them regularly then please continue to comment about them and i will listen, but if you dont then simply dont judge them because they haven't made the first team at Bristol City.

The reserves have players who are not making the first team, i can reel them all off if you wish me to Ribero, Jackson, Clarkson,hunt spence bolasie i can go on,, so the coaches are under pressure to play those guys in all reserve team fixtures simply to justify their wages, until the club sorts that issue out, how on earth are first and second year scholars ever going to make it to that team never mind the first team.

So please dont ask me if i understand the academy system, its an insult

You clearly have a better understanding of the Academy than most on here and I won't try and tell you whether it works or not, but Bristol City's record of getting players from youth setup to first team is poor to say the least. I don't think that's a reflection on the kids in the youth teams, more a reflection on first team policy and the decisions made by managers in relation to youth. The cold facts are that in the last 10 years only Carey and Skuse have troubled the first team on a regular basis. You could make an argument for Lita, though he's not really a product of our youth team. Now Cardiff's Academy might be way behind ours right now, but in the past 5 years they've had Ledley, Matthews, Blake come through to e first team regulars. We've got Ribiero who's just been on loan at Carlisle and Wilson who's in and out the team (though should start IMO). Looking around the league, even 'smaller' teams like Barnsley have a better record than us of bringing through youth (Butterfield, Hassell, Noble-Lazarus) even though it's a town with maybe 1/4 of Bristol's population and with Sheffield and Leeds within 25 miles to Hoover up the best players. The problem is not with the talent of the lads in the adcademy but how the club manages the task of bringing those with talent into the 1st team

[Redcliffe 78]

Cardiff's academy is not light years ahead, where on earth did you get that from ??

And on what authority do you make that call ?

it ain't on facilities and it ain't on results either to be fair.

I know both academies intimately, the grass is always greener, but trust me you have that one wrong

Cardiff were beaten 5-1 at home by reading on Saturday who are second in the youth league, they lost 4-2 to Villa the game before who are half way down the league

our 18s beat villa 3-1 just before Xmas and lost narrowly 1-0 to Coventry on Saturday who are Top of the league, our guys played all the football.

we have 7 1st year scholars making the 18s regularly, Cardiff have two... Theo Wharton and Josh Yorath, the rest are second years who will inevitably be released come the spring.

Bristol have a great system of playing younger players up the age groups, that doesn't happen at Cardiff.

Academy football is not about results it's about producing players, Cardiff have produced many a good player over the last few years we have produced Wilson, we might have better facility's but they are producing first team players whilst ours is not.

[Redhyde]

Of course i understand that point, my son has been involved in academy football since he was an eight year old and i have travelled the country far and wide and probably visited them all over the last 9 years.

However my reply had nothing to do with your response !!!!!

i simply responded to the comment about Cardiff's academy being light years ahead of Bristol's, that simply isn't true and i simply gave some facts to substantiate my point.

Facts that aren't relevant. You going to games doesn't change the primary purpose of the academy. And the criteria on which it is judged. It fact your vested interest seems to have clouded your judgement.

The crisis in Bristol's first team is a completely different discussion to that of the academy, Who said it wasn't?if you watch any academy club, even at the very top, the system rarely produces players who make the first team at the club where they serve. And we produce less than most, and less than Cardiff.

Generally they are released or find other clubs and either progress from there or drift from the game completely.

At present Bristol's youth team has several players who will in my opinion make it, possibly not at Bristol City but they will make it at some level.

Joe Bryan, Bobby Reid, Aaron Amadi Holloway, amongst the current crop of first year pros for starters, and amongst the first and second year scholars we have some really promising players.

If you watch them regularly then please continue to comment about them and i will listen, but if you dont then simply dont judge them because they haven't made the first team at Bristol City.

That is the only thing we should judge them on. You do understand the people aren't attacking the individual players like your son? We're commenting on the continual failure of the coaches over a long period of time.

The reserves have players who are not making the first team, i can reel them all off if you wish me to Ribero, Jackson, Clarkson,hunt spence bolasie i can go on,, so the coaches are under pressure to play those guys in all reserve team fixtures simply to justify their wages, until the club sorts that issue out, how on earth are first and second year scholars ever going to make it to that team never mind the first team.

So please dont ask me if i understand the academy system, its an insult

Saying my response to your post had nothing to do with your comment shows you still don't get it. You reeled off results and performances and ages of players in Cardiffs current youth team. But you ignored the one thing that matters with an academy. Producing players, consistently. An that's why, simply looking at the academy graduates of the two sides, Cardiff City are light years ahead. Results and facilities and performances do not matter. Are we sacrificing individual player development for results? That would be a horrifying thought at academy level.

How do first an second year scholars make it into a reserve team and a first team? Be better? They need an opportunity, well they get that every day in training to impress. They get it when they go out on loan. You don't sign players if your youth team has better ones. Absolutely it's really rare to produce any players from a youth team, but we're doing less than others and have been for ages with no consequences to the coaching staff at that level.

Criticizing the academy is not the same as criticizing the academy players, they're victims of it as much as anyone. Defending their results and performances when they don't make it into the first team is the opposite of what we should be doing.

[djb6162]

You clearly have a better understanding of the Academy than most on here and I won't try and tell you whether it works or not, but Bristol City's record of getting players from youth setup to first team is poor to say the least. I don't think that's a reflection on the kids in the youth teams, more a reflection on first team policy and the decisions made by managers in relation to youth. The cold facts are that in the last 10 years only Carey and Skuse have troubled the first team on a regular basis. You could make an argument for Lita, though he's not really a product of our youth team. Now Cardiff's Academy might be way behind ours right now, but in the past 5 years they've had Ledley, Matthews, Blake come through to e first team regulars. We've got Ribiero who's just been on loan at Carlisle and Wilson who's in and out the team (though should start IMO). Looking around the league, even 'smaller' teams like Barnsley have a better record than us of bringing through youth (Butterfield, Hassell, Noble-Lazarus) even though it's a town with maybe 1/4 of Bristol's population and with Sheffield and Leeds within 25 miles to Hoover up the best players. The problem is not with the talent of the lads in the adcademy but how the club manages the task of bringing those with talent into the 1st team

on that final point i think we are saying the same thing, our academy system in the UK is now blocked up with professional squads that number in excess of 35 players in some cases, Bristol City no different.

Bristol recently had 8 players out on Loan who were not even getting a game for the clubs they were loaned to, and now they are back.

While they are Back and on the books, 1st year pros and scholars alike have limited chances to gain the relevant experience required to make the step up to first team football.

Its scandalous really and whilst the academy may not be providing absolute value for money to quote the chairman, neither are the club getting value for money on players who simply will never be first team regulars. It speaks volumes that BC had to put virtually the entire first team regulars out against Crawley, look at the Cardiff Squad that ran WBA so close this weekend.......... 10 changes and a 17 year old apprentice who played 20 mins. True their priority may not be as strong as Bristol City's,but i would argue that the priority for the manager is the next league game and also to look at his options.

[djb6162]

Saying my response to your post had nothing to do with your comment shows you still don't get it. You reeled off results and performances and ages of players in Cardiffs current youth team. But you ignored the one thing that matters with an academy. Producing players, consistently. An that's why, simply looking at the academy graduates of the two sides, Cardiff City are light years ahead. Results and facilities and performances do not matter. Are we sacrificing individual player development for results? That would be a horrifying thought at academy level.

How do first an second year scholars make it into a reserve team and a first team? Be better? They need an opportunity, well they get that every day in training to impress. They get it when they go out on loan. You don't sign players if your youth team has better ones. Absolutely it's really rare to produce any players from a youth team, but we're doing less than others and have been for ages with no consequences to the coaching staff at that level.

Criticizing the academy is not the same as criticizing the academy players, they're victims of it as much as anyone. Defending their results and performances when they don't make it into the first team is the opposite of what we should be doing.

I do get your point, even so, it does not mean that you are correct.

Firstly 1st and second year apprentices/scholars do not go out on loan, 1st year pros may do, and certainly fringe and reserve players do.

so lets get that bit cleared up shall we.

While those above were on loan, several 1st and second year scholars were picked in games for the reserves, go back and look at the squads on the website.

Now ask the reserve team manger if his hands are tied when he picks the reserve team squad to play Oxford last week ? why...... simple they are all back demanding match time.

until the club kills the size of its fringe squad, youth players will never get the chance to develop fully, if you cant see that then i am wasting my time.

Next point that you clearly believe in is producing players who are good enough, and of course how could i argue with that, it has to be the key objective, but the point i am making is that the system is clogged up with massive professional squads demanding match time and management who have to justify wage bills and subsequently fall into the trap of playing fringe players instead of developing youth players and first year pros.

Inevitably those youth players don't make the required leap or progress and either leave the club or are released.

Have a look at the number of players managed by the LMA and PFA who go on to find regular first team football after being released by their first clubs at academy level.

There isn't a single player in Chelsea's current U18s squad who is likely to make the first team for Chelsea, however ask me if they will make it elsewhere and you will get another answer. So with all their money they don't get the conversion rates, so why would Bristol City be any different.

The answer is the same, clubs find it easier to buy success than to nurture it organically ... the result is a huge loss on the balance sheet and a failing club

Chelsea included by the way, for all their millions, whats the average age of the first team squad. no doubt they will buy their way out of trouble over the next two years and continue to blow £150m a year doing it. BCFC doesnt have that luxury, but it does have the losses and failure so what do we have to lose by changing the system.

['Orns]

To go back to the original point - I see that Lennox is missing off the team list on the OS, sure he was number 26?

Has he been released? Ball is still on there

[Monkeh]

the thing is Harley aside (which is a well documented case of billy big balls) what players have we relased from our acadamey have gone on to play at a higher level to my knowladge none,

The like of Guy Madjo Marvin Brown Darren Jones Simon Clist (who came from spurs) Tristan plummer all gone on to do well at non league level or below but none have gone on to play at our level or higher,

The fact is the bristol and west area in general don't produce as many gifted footballers as other areas and the ones that are produced are quickly snapped up by top flight clubs like Sinclair from the gas,

Cardiff produce more players then us because it is the welsh capital the majority of welsh born players want to play for them or swansea out of pride for being welsh,

You'll find the same for alot of irsh players wanting to play in the SPL,

For every one player a top flight club produce about 50 get released the whole youth set up in this country is wrong its not just at city

[Riaz]

guy madjo didnt come through our academy!

just saying

[Red-Robbo]

The fact is the bristol and west area in general don't produce as many gifted footballers as other areas and the ones that are produced are quickly snapped up by top flight clubs like Sinclair from the gas,

Cardiff produce more players then us because it is the welsh capital the majority of welsh born players want to play for them or swansea out of pride for being welsh,

I'd imagine the West Country had a larger population than Wales. Certainly, Bristol is bigger than Cardiff. Also, the Yacky Dars are much more focussed on Rugby and it's the main sport in most parts of the principality.

I'm not disagreeing with you though, Monkeh. It is a bit of a mystery why the football culture here is not as deeply entrenched as it is in other parts of the country. A facet of this being a wealthier part of the country than many, perhaps?

[Monkeh]

guy madjo didnt come through our academy!

just saying

always thought he did I stand corrected but the point stays the same

[Monkeh]

I'd imagine the West Country had a larger population than Wales. Certainly, Bristol is bigger than Cardiff. Also, the Yacky Dars are much more focussed on Rugby and it's the main sport in most parts of the principality.

I'm not disagreeing with you though, Monkeh. It is a bit of a mystery why the football culture here is not as deeply entrenched as it is in other parts of the country. A facet of this being a wealthier part of the country than many, perhaps?

Maybe its a it could have somthing to do with all the amataur football thats played in the area, young players move from club to club quite often so scouts may miss them,

I don't know really it is a bit of a myth

[Spike]

A lot of people have mentioned youth would be better if we cleared the "dead wood" but I think that's a key problem with City... we simply don't clear the dead wood, if anything we tend to bring more players in who end up being in that category. I think City need a massive clear out and maybe even to save money in the long term some compensation may need to be paid out, or even City actively seeking out clubs to take these players off of our hands.

I think we've been a club who retain players for too long for far too long of a period of time. We seem to lose the ones we want to keep and keep the ones we want to lose.

[GrahamC]

To go back to the original point - I see that Lennox is missing off the team list on the OS, sure he was number 26?

Has he been released? Ball is still on there

Yes, last week (see Post 24).

['Orns]

Yes, last week (see Post 24).

Nice one, must have missed it - but just seen Foster with his 26 shirt, all makes sense now....!

[Redcliffe 78]

Club have put this on Twitter concerning Lennox.

http://www.bcfc.co.uk/page/NewsDetail/0,,10327~2572465,00.html

[internetjef]

When all these contracts run out at end of the season I really hope we are pretty merciless with renewals

Considering you prob want a first team squad with roughly 2 players in each position plus an extra keeper (23), i would be happy to see use perhaps only 16-17 seniors, and use make the rest up from our best youngsters. Basically a senior first 11, a versatile senior bench of players (such as this new full back sounds like), but then the rest to be the likes of Ribs/Reid/Amadi-Holloway etc

When we picked up injuries it would mean we would have to give the youngsters a chance out of necessity, and at the same time mean the wage bill would be massively lower as they are surely on pretty modest first year pro contracts.

Worst case scenario such as 2 or 3 most senior players in one area of the team are injured you can alway go for a 1 month emergency loan or something like that, theres always some prem player who isnt getting games and could bail us out short term.