Esmond Million's Bung Posted January 23, 2012 Report Share Posted January 23, 2012 Is it just me but a Union giving there members money away to a football club a little bit odd and wrong, I mean a poiltical party that will fight ( or make out they will ) for your unions views I can see the logic Almost as ridiculous as giving it to the Liebore party. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duesseldorf Citizen Posted January 23, 2012 Report Share Posted January 23, 2012 Surely you can see the differance though? Di Canio uses a Roman Salute...it's not his fault the Nazis chose to use a similar salute. It's the same as using the two finger salute nowadays...completely different in meaning to when used at Agincourt...but could be misconstrued either way. If a German player did it, with no Roman background, then yes...we could fairly assume it would be *unacceptable word* led. Di Canio has said he agreed with some of Mussolini's ideas...not all of them. Hitler was a stark raving lunaatic and evil...but he also had some good ideas. The VW beetle for one...the peoples car. It's understanding where he is coming from that makes it difficult for people to understand. Just because he's different, doesn't make him bad imho. Always loved him during his days in England. But his views stil are a no-go in my eyes. You can't seperate fascism from racism plus Lazio well known being a club with pretty right-wing following and Di Canio gives them a "roman" salute ? Still don't believe it. He clearly knew what he did and surely it wasn't just showing his sympathies for Rome... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red-Robbo Posted January 23, 2012 Report Share Posted January 23, 2012 He's neither a 'Fascist' in the sense the media portray, or a rascist. Since a very early age Di Canio has been a self-proclaimed fascista and has been photographed and videotaped several times giving the controversial Roman salute to Lazio supporters while playing for Lazio.[21] So how do you square these two quotes from your post, Spudski? He calls himself a fascist, gives a salute that is connected to Italian fascism but he isn't a 'fascist' because the salute originated in ancient Rome?? The swastika originated in ancient India, but you'd be a bit of a twaat to fly one nowadays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spudski Posted January 24, 2012 Report Share Posted January 24, 2012 It's purely the context...seriously...if you really are interested and want to understand the man, read his biography. It would be much easier to understand. Trust me... I don't like 'right wing' views...but his views are not 'right wing' per se. I wouldn't stand up for him otherwise. The media like to jump on the bandwagon and sensationalise everything, without actually doing proper research. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samo II Posted January 24, 2012 Report Share Posted January 24, 2012 Di Canio is a very complex individual. For many years I first admired his individualism, personally and on the pitch, then was disturbed by his seeming allegiance to politics and views I totally disagree with. However, as Spudski has indicated, Di Canio's world view is much more nuanced than the gestures and his proclaimed views indicate. Italian football culture is equally complex (I'd recommend 'Calcio: A History of Italian Football' by John Foot) and this interview with Di Canio from December last year is worth reading for some context. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esmond Million's Bung Posted January 24, 2012 Report Share Posted January 24, 2012 It's purely the context...seriously...if you really are interested and want to understand the man, read his biography. It would be much easier to understand. Trust me... I don't like 'right wing' views...but his views are not 'right wing' per se. I wouldn't stand up for him otherwise. The media like to jump on the bandwagon and sensationalise everything, without actually doing proper research. of course many controversial people write books, but your assumption the press are the only the people in this process who print only lies and sensationalism and people who write biographies only tell the truth, i've read enough biographies to know most of them are sensationalised, twisted, lies and 'look at me i'm wonderful', it's actions and not words that count in the final analysis, talk will always be cheap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan Tansley Posted January 24, 2012 Report Share Posted January 24, 2012 He's either a fascist - in which case racism goes with the ideology - or he's a numpty not understanding the significance of fascist idolatry. Mussolini was not a nice chap. Imagine the outcry if a German player had given a Na.zi salute? Mussolini was the ultimate pragmatist. He was originally in the socialist party and his move to the right was, some would argue, less to do with ideology and more to do with self promotion. Fascist Italy had numerous racist policies, particularly at the time that Mussolini was forging closer links with Hitler... However the extent to which these policies were enacted is debatable. I've seen many an article written by respected historians that argue that Mussolini saw racism as a necessary tool to be close to the N.azi machine that, at the time, was sweeping through Europe at an unstoppable rate. That willingness to advocate racism is of course lamentable and may even be considered worse than being a racist... He wasn't misguided like racists are but he was calculated and willing to sacrifice a race of people for his own gain. There are some pretty major differences between Fascism and National Socialism, I was never comfortable hearing the Germans described as fascist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red-Robbo Posted January 24, 2012 Report Share Posted January 24, 2012 Mussolini was the ultimate pragmatist. He was originally in the socialist party and his move to the right was, some would argue, less to do with ideology and more to do with self promotion. Fascist Italy had numerous racist policies, particularly at the time that Mussolini was forging closer links with Hitler... However the extent to which these policies were enacted is debatable. I've seen many an article written by respected historians that argue that Mussolini saw racism as a necessary tool to be close to the N.azi machine that, at the time, was sweeping through Europe at an unstoppable rate. That willingness to advocate racism is of course lamentable and may even be considered worse than being a racist... He wasn't misguided like racists are but he was calculated and willing to sacrifice a race of people for his own gain. There are some pretty major differences between Fascism and National Socialism, I was never comfortable hearing the Germans described as fascist. Hmmm, Mussolini went on about the superiority of the 'Mediterranean race' and decided to invade first Albania and then Abyssinia as part of a drive to allow Italian expansion around the Adriatic and in Africa. And as early as 1921 he was banging on about how Jews were behind 'International Bolshevism'. It's worth remembering too, that while Hitler was elected, Mussolini seized power by overthrowing the elected government - and maintained his grip on power by murder, torture and intimidation. As I say, he wasn't in any sense of the word, a good bloke. He didn't even make the trains run on time, despite the myth ! As for Di Canio, I respect him as a person, but I think he's playing a dangerous and foolish game by allowing himself to be identified with the sort of people who'd like to see a fascist dictatorship back in Europe. He will know how the world at large will interpret those 'Roman' salutes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan Tansley Posted January 24, 2012 Report Share Posted January 24, 2012 Hmmm, Mussolini went on about the superiority of the 'Mediterranean race' and decided to invade first Albania and then Abyssinia as part of a drive to allow Italian expansion around the Adriatic and in Africa. And as early as 1921 he was banging on about how Jews were behind 'International Bolshevism'. It's worth remembering too, that while Hitler was elected, Mussolini seized power by overthrowing the elected government - and maintained his grip on power by murder, torture and intimidation. As I say, he wasn't in any sense of the word, a good bloke. He didn't even make the trains run on time, despite the myth ! As for Di Canio, I respect him as a person, but I think he's playing a dangerous and foolish game by allowing himself to be identified with the sort of people who'd like to see a fascist dictatorship back in Europe. He will know how the world at large will interpret those 'Roman' salutes. I didn't intend to paint him in a positive light, if that's what I did? He was a murderous tyrant and met the end he deserved, strung up on a Petrol station. My point is mainly focussed on the idea that Mussolini made most of his decisions pragmatically including encouraging Nationalism and subsequently racism. We did a recent study of the film "Life is Beautiful" in one of my modules at University and read a lot of stuff about the Italian Holocaust and how the Italians tried, in the face of great German pressure, to avoid taking the final solution to the same extremes as it would have under Naz.i control. Still, people did lose their lives at the hand of the Italian holocaust and that kinda defeats any argument for bravigenti. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrs Court Red Posted January 24, 2012 Report Share Posted January 24, 2012 Muslim????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan Tansley Posted January 24, 2012 Report Share Posted January 24, 2012 Pragmatically?? Your history of WW2 faschism is worse than you getting on your high horse daily. "You did a recent study"...FFS ask any WW2 vet and ask them about the German/Italian/Muslim alliance. Bloody hell man, change tutors! It's a train of thought for respected historians that Mussolini made his decisions based on what would be successful or popular as opposed to someone like Hitler who genuinly believed the hatred he spouted. I'm not saying I agree with that view point, it's irrelevant what I think on the subject. The Italian people frequently present themselves as the victims of German occupation and like to portray the idea of bravigenti (good people) when talking about themselves, particularly in reference to the Italian holocaust and their role in the war. Though "Life is Beautiful" is a popular film (I think it won oscars?) it is a good source for analysing the Italians perceptions of their role and their guilt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan Tansley Posted January 24, 2012 Report Share Posted January 24, 2012 It won best foreign film. And it was fiction. Sorry mate,but the Italian people embraced National socialism with a vigor matched by Germany. Mussolini was the result of that. Il Duce,was however more of a puppet in regard to axis decisions, and that left Italian troops open to switching sides in the confusion post Italian surrender,very much like the French Navy under the Vichy Govt attacking British warships after a British initiated attack. http://en.wikipedia....s-el-K%C3%A9bir WW2 - sometimes no-one knew who was who. Mr DiCanio now please! The thing about film is whilst they don't profess to be works of fact they do give a useful insight into the culture or thoughts at the time it was made. In this instance the film mocks the Germans throughout and plays up the Italian ideal of bravigenti. It's an interesting concept, using films as historical sources. Mississippi Burning was another film we used as a source to answer a historical question. I'd love for Nick Carter, one of my lecturers to have this discussion with you. He's a published author on Modern Italy... http://www.newport.ac.uk/research/researchcentres/researchcentres/SWCHIR/Staff%20Research%20and%20Publications/Pages/DrNickCarter.aspx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcfcbs20 Posted January 24, 2012 Report Share Posted January 24, 2012 The thing about film is whilst they don't profess to be works of fact they do give a useful insight into the culture or thoughts at the time it was made. In this instance the film mocks the Germans throughout and plays up the Italian ideal of bravigenti. It's an interesting concept, using films as historical sources. Mississippi Burning was another film we used as a source to answer a historical question. I'd love for Nick Carter, one of my lecturers to have this discussion with you. He's a published author on Modern Italy... http://www.newport.a...NickCarter.aspx LMFAO who is that in your avatar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan Tansley Posted January 24, 2012 Report Share Posted January 24, 2012 LMFAO who is that in your avatar. It's me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcfcbs20 Posted January 24, 2012 Report Share Posted January 24, 2012 It's me... Top man put it back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan Tansley Posted January 24, 2012 Report Share Posted January 24, 2012 Haha, it isn't... And I'm quite fond of Tommy now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcfcbs20 Posted January 24, 2012 Report Share Posted January 24, 2012 Haha, it isn't... And I'm quite fond of Tommy now. You funny ****** I teared up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan Tansley Posted January 24, 2012 Report Share Posted January 24, 2012 You funny ****** I teared up. Makes a change to do something right on here, I'd better start being an arrogant ****** again just to avoid getting a reputation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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