Confusing Effort With Ability, Confusing A Win Over A Garbage Team With A Great Display.

[Red_Jim]

Thought provoking original post at the start of this thread.

Two things for me though, firstly you have to remember McInnes has only had one transfer window (the notoriously rubbish January one) and a hugely swollen squad limiting capacity to bring in many new players. He has not had a chance to build a footballing team, just the challenge of remoulding a team who did not know how to win. The priority is also very different when the team you take over is propping up the league.

Secondly, Scuse. Sorry, for me he is and should remain the first name on the team sheet. If you want dazzling wing play, shots and stinging 70 yard passes look elsewhere. But if you want someone who will consistantly work for 90 minutes, monopolise all the decent tackles made by the team (in both the middle and your own penalty area), make time for yourself on the ball, play simple passes, more or less never give the ball away, not pick up red cards, only get minimal injuries (involving things breaking rather than wusey muscle strains), and genuinely play a key part in the team, he is your man.

Tommy Doc was never known for much diferent, but the recognition he got was probably helped by the fact that other players around him at the time did their job properly, a job which was very different to his. Leave the long passes to Tinman, and the shooting to Super Bob.

Scuse is not Messi. But then again neither were Makelele, Mascherano, Batty, Roy Keane, or Gattuso - would their respective teams have been as balanced or successful without them?

I also believe Scuse is our best right back, but largely unable to play there given our lack of defensive midfield cover at a time we are fighting for survival and desperately need to 'win ugly'.

Bang on!!

The end of the season is the time for long-term repercussions. Now we are trying to fight for every point we need to stay up.

I was there yesterday, it was brilliant, not pretty, but Skuse was an inspiration.

Redhyde, I agree with some of what you say, but the timing of your post is strange. Let us enjoy the weekend, we've just had 2 MASSIVE results.

[Volta]

People slate Foster but his chaenge on Platt potentially kept the game At 2-1.....it was superb defending and he showed real strength in fighting him off.

[Volta]

People slate Foster but his chaenge on Platt potentially kept the game At 2-1.....it was superb defending and he showed real strength in fighting him off.

[One Team In Keynsham]

Secondly, Scuse. Sorry, for me he is and should remain the first name on the team sheet. If you want dazzling wing play, shots and stinging 70 yard passes look elsewhere. But if you want someone who will consistantly work for 90 minutes, monopolise all the decent tackles made by the team (in both the middle and your own penalty area), make time for yourself on the ball, play simple passes, more or less never give the ball away, not pick up red cards, only get minimal injuries (involving things breaking rather than wusey muscle strains), and genuinely play a key part in the team, he is your man.

This. Watching yesterday, there was a spell when it seemed to be a spate of the ball moving Skuse - ANOther - Skuse - ANOther, rinse and repeat. He might not be a world beater, but doing simple things, keeping possession, and waiting to play the right ball are not the hallmarks of the worst footballing midfielder in the club.

[Redhyde]

I've changed my mind, this is absolutely the right time for this as it cautions against the celebratory bandwagon.

Derek McInnes's reign is all about short termism. We have to stay up, at practically any cost. This isn't a criticism, because this is the job he's been hired to do. He's been hired to galvanize a team of really poor quality players and beat the other really poor teams in the league. There's not too many teams left who are capable of self imploding like this season. The clubs coming up an down are not going bust, and not asset stripping. We need to get better.

I've defended the loan signings DMc's made throughout the season. We needed bodies, whoever they were and however we got them. It's not fair to judge his transfer record on the policy of keeping us up.

But that's not the same at all as saying he's bad or he's good. I'm saying if Richard Foster's signing was indicative that's the key here, of what's to come. Then we're in trouble. He might be the new Brian Wilson, purely here to add a body at a key time. And that's fine.

Having blind faith in McInnes with pretty much no evidence of a transfer record success is equally dumb. We might be letting a guy with no real record, sign say 10-12 players this summer, maybe more. That is concerning. Just for the pure simple, we don't have a clue what he'll do. And the first indication in Foster of his longer term plans, is a shocking footballer who runs around.

Of course you can have water carriers, I'm not a Barcelona fanboy, this is English tier 2 football, I've for many years understood the limitations of the players we've had and will get. But you can't have a team of them anymore. The @Forest back four Foster, Carey, Amougou, McAllister, that was laughable. People were laughing as the whooshed it time an time again. Woolford, Skuse, Cisse, Wood, Stead we just couldn't keep the ball.

This isn't cynical me, who picks and chooses his games. These are the people who go everywhere with City. They were laughing at our team. It worked we won I hear you cry! Just because we've won didn't mean it worked at all.

Comparing Skuse and the post injury Tommy D is interesting. Because they're the exact opposites on what they could do. Tommy couldn't run and could pass the ball more than five yards. And he'd launch himself into tackles. Skuse is the jockeying king runs around and keeps it simple because he has very little ability. Cole Skuse is a much more athletic, Joe Burnell. Skuse isn't a leader on the pitch, he's not a dominant figure he's a quiet lad who works hard. And fair play to him, he's totally maximising his career. I don't hate the guy, I just don't rate him. If you look at him compared to Cisse, who can break things up and play a bit too. There's an obvious gap in class.

I'm not who whinges for the sake of it, I've defended McInnes as much as slated him this season. Writing something on the forum is not the same as not getting behind the team at a match. I wish people would understand that.

Newcastle sacked their manager because he's mediocre an brought in someone better. They weren't doing badly. I'm not holding NUFC as a way to run a club or do things. But the principal is right. Don't settle for mediocrity, strive to be better. What McInnes has done so far is the minimum. It's the expected, the achievable, the probable considering the mess of the three clubs below. But he needs to be better. Or we need to find better. And have people really decided without question he's the guy to take us forward.

[Ashton1]

Cole Skuse worst midfielder at our club?! You're joking right? Please say you're joking.

Skuse is by far the BEST midfielder we have, it's only since Skuse has come back from injury have we started winning any games.

Cisse and Kilkenny are definitely no better.

Can't agree mate,

Cisse is by far the best midfielder in our squad

I don't dislike Skuse, but come on , what he makes up on in effort he loses out twice as much on ability ! I even believe Pearson is better than Skuse ability wise.

Pearson and Cisse both have played in the prem and didn't embarrass them selfs . Could you see Skuse in the prem ??

You can see a mile of, Cisse, pearson, Amougou, stead ( the spine if our team IMO ) have played at the highest level !

[Garland-sweden]

We are in a bottom zone. We beat Forest and Coventry. We have the players that we have. Think the defence was good yesterday. City 0-1 ht, then makes 3, could it be better. DM once again used the best team. In the end of the game showed Kilkenny that he is a footballer. We are fighting to avoid relegation and got 3 points. The only matter, Imo, is that we stay in cc. Skuse. Albert or any other player, if they bad I dont think its time to look at particular players. City have to stay up. Im sure DM and big boss have a plan for next season. Well done City in the easter. Always believe.

[chipdawg]

I've changed my mind, this is absolutely the right time for this as it cautions against the celebratory bandwagon.

Derek McInnes's reign is all about short termism. We have to stay up, at practically any cost. This isn't a criticism, because this is the job he's been hired to do. He's been hired to galvanize a team of really poor quality players and beat the other really poor teams in the league. There's not too many teams left who are capable of self imploding like this season. The clubs coming up an down are not going bust, and not asset stripping. We need to get better.

This paragraph implies, inherently, that you believe that another manager could have come in after 12 games with us rooted to the bottom of the league with 6 points and achieved more than 'safety'? I would argue that McInnes was appointed with an eye to building something; firefighting options were available and ignored

[real_bristol]

.....I've been level headed throughout the McInnes reign. I'm concerned we're going to get much too self congratulatory on beating a team who lets an agent sign their players, a team who should have been liquidated by now, and a team stripped bare of any decent players over a perio of years. Let's not make the mistake we made when we lost in the playoffs, let's not reward failure. Maybe it didn't come across on Tv, but at Forest there was a massive gulf in the footballing intelligence of the two teams. They passed and moved, we were chasing them all over the park and lumping it long. Praising the people giving the ball away, for closing them back down is backwards. Don't give the ball away.......

What is the point in having superior footballing intelligence if you can't get results.

Lets not forget we could have just as easily won that game 2-0, due to a perfectly good Woolford goal disallowed by another awful refereeing decision, as well as losing by the same if not more.

Id rather play ugly and win than play pretty and not. Del's got us performing ugly and not losing now for four games, I'll take that.

Bring on Birmingham.

[steviestevieneville]

Footballing skills seem to go by the wayside these days. It's more about being athletic, fast and being able to run for 90 odd minutes.

There used to be a term... 'Let the ball do the work'... Run into space, receive and pass. A lot of players refuse or don't know how to run into space. A lot of the 'distribution' looks woeful from our fullbacks, because our midfield and forwards don't make themselves readily available for a pass. Diagonal runs and coming back to receive the ball, seem a long distant memory. They just sit on the shoulder of the last defender....

Someone mentioned Barcelona...you don't need to be Barcelona....but at least have some footballing nowse.

I agree with the OP... it's a sham that 'players' can't do what used to be expected as the basics.

Great result... but i fear if we stay up, this is the type of football we will have to endure week in week out.

Doing a 'Swansea'.... would be my favoured route in the future.

I think we will see a decent passing side next season as long as we stay up. Del will be able to rip this squad apart and get his own players in.

[Red_Jim]

I've said it before on here and I still believe that Derek McInnes has done an excellent job since he's taken over. The team was totally inept under Millen, and the fact is McInnes has taken a team that is not up to Championship standard, and used his squad well. This weekend illustrated his quality as a manager, by managing his squad properly for two crunch games in three days and getting 6 points.

We all agree the squad needs a major overhaul in the summer but for me McInnes has shown enough since taking over to suggest that he can build something here. We're 4 clear with 4 to play, he has spent the season using the loan market to keep our heads above water and we are 4 points clear with 4 to play. He is still unproven, but I've seen enough to believe he deserves to be given plenty of time to get this club heading in the right direction.

[Hope&Glory]

The summer signings will be absolutely critical should we stay up. This season would indicate that SL will not be dipping too deeply into his pockets in the summer so Delboys summer signings will need to be shrewd ones indeed and the days of wages like those paid to David james etc are gone. I will be elated if we stay up like all of us but I do share the concerns of many that with 50% of this squad likely to leave in the summer , what quality players will we have on our books when we kick off again in August. Potentially , we have our most important summer for years coming up !!

[Jordan Tansley]

This paragraph implies, inherently, that you believe that another manager could have come in after 12 games with us rooted to the bottom of the league with 6 points and achieved more than 'safety'? I would argue that McInnes was appointed with an eye to building something; firefighting options were available and ignored

I think it was two fold appointment. This season was all about firefighting, as you put it, with plenty of money thrown at short term signings to get us over the line (touch wood). The second stage of DMC's appointment is the rebuilding job he will begin in the close season. Thankfully he has a head start that most managers don't get in that he has a large number of poor players out of contract so he can pretty much start from scratch. Obviously we've seen with the sad sags that this has some risk and that a new side can take a while to gel, but the opportunity is there for Derek to mould this club his way.

In hindsight it will be viewed as a good appointment if we stay up and he then builds something better than we have. I have every faith

[XBOXMAN69]

This post is spot on.

[miketh2nd]

As a few have mentioned many of us know of downfalls of our team , that many of us season ticket holders have been wasting our money putting blind faith into a team that has wilted season by season since GJ lost the plot in the third season in the championship.

It's all easy saying Mcinnes is a short term fix but hell if he keeps us up I'm happy to trust to see where he can take us next, yes our football has been awful to watch for past few seasons. Yes we haven't had a any creativity since hartely, yes we haven't had any decent full backs for a few seasons also bar Orr.

If Mcinnes keeps us up I'm happy to see what he does heaven forbid next season we don't get a top 12 finish I'd be chuffed with that but honestly I'd take near the top 12/ mid table as an achievement unless we spend big. Then build on year on each year etc... sorry forgot being a footy fan your not supposed to have patience?

Really do not see the need to look at the negatives this time of the season.

[Nibor]

This post is probably four games too soon, but I've become annoyed at the forgetfulness of people over the course of the 90 minutes today.It's a great result over an equally garbage team who by their managers own admissions had nothing in the tank. The difference today was physical we had fresh legs. You know who that is down to? SL backing our manager with loan signings, and Coventry's board selling all the best players out from under them. A victory for SL if ever there was one.

Let's speak about fresh legs. Cole Skuse. He ran around a lot today, he worked super hard, he worked hard against Forest too. He is a superb athlete. He is unfortunately the worst footballing midfielder at the club. I'm really sad to see people singing his praises today. This is what's wrong with British football. 100% effort is a minimum requirement, not a praiseworthy action. The fact he's being praised for running around, is an embarrassment to the standards we set ourselves when we came up.

Neil Kilkenny is another one who's been elevated above his station today. He did what? He played decently against a team running on fumes, a poor team running on fumes. He's meant to be the creative force in our midfield and to show up half a dozen games a season isn't something to shout about. He received the ball sprea it out to the wings and moved forwards to support. That's what he's meant to do, and what he's (over)paid to.

Richard Foster. Another case of what's wrong with football in these isles. I was reading with horror/fascination about his performance today. Do people not count distribution in a performance? Woeful player.

Brett Pitman gave the ultimate why I shouldn't start games in the championship audition. Passing, control, technique. Awful. His second touch was a poor pass or a tackle. Even the BBC commentator mentioned him putting in a shift. How about not giving the ball away constantly and not having to make up for your errors.

I'm super happy with the result. And at this stage of the season results are it. We got battered at Forest we won, we looked equal with an abysmal Coventry team and we won. I really care about this club, and this isn't a future I look forward to. We sign a team in the mold of players McInnes has brought in (in the summer) we're looking at a team of players who can't pass or control the ball. This group of players is dreadful.

I've been level headed throughout the McInnes reign. I'm concerned we're going to get much too self congratulatory on beating a team who lets an agent sign their players, a team who should have been liquidated by now, and a team stripped bare of any decent players over a perio of years. Let's not make the mistake we made when we lost in the playoffs, let's not reward failure. Maybe it didn't come across on Tv, but at Forest there was a massive gulf in the footballing intelligence of the two teams. They passed and moved, we were chasing them all over the park and lumping it long. Praising the people giving the ball away, for closing them back down is backwards. Don't give the ball away.

Maybe it will never click for some fans/managers.

This isn't about not getting behind the team, I don't want us to make the same mistakes again, and I don't want to be in this position ever again when it's avoidable. The top 5-6 in league 1 are either big clubs or have money behind them. This is the last year we can afford to be this bad. We were before but definitely now, a small fish in the big championship pond. And we need to think smarter to survive.

I know i'm going to get hit with the stop moaning, and get behind the lads cult that goes on. I'm delighted with the result. I'm concerned about the future. I'm frustrated by the celebration of mediocrity, It's possible to separate the issues.

Done until we start tearing up player's contracts, COYR.

IMO the only accurate thing in this post is that Foster's distribution was abysmal. The Scotch habit of place kicking to the touch line is one we must break if he's to be of use to us longer term.

Skuse was deserved MOTM, he won a hell of a lot of possession and retained the ball for us. I want to see him travel more with the ball rather than dwell on it and pass short but it was a very good midfield performance. The worst midfielder at the club? OTT. They all have different weaknesses and are much of a muchness.

Kilkenny moved the ball well, his passing could have been a bit better (too many passes to feet instead of a sensible distance in front when we're breaking) but I don't think anybody's elevated him to any status in particular. He's looked a very good player when able to get around the box and less so when forced to sit deep in the old LJ "buck passing" role I've come to despise.

Pitman made key contributions to two goals, linked play well in the main and only lost it when under lots of pressure (and take a look at the options he was given when that happened). He could have got into the box more and the sending off was avoidable. You can't sensibly judge his performances as a starter because he never gets a run of starts. The signs of a good partnership with Stead being possible are there, they read each other well and usually end up close enough to work together.

If we want to criticise individual performances, how does Albert's complete (and continuing) no show not get a mention?

In any case, whether you agree or disagree with the post, the timing is a whole way beyond inappropriate.

It's all about staying up, nothing and I do mean nothing else matters. McInnes will have a clean slate to rebuild in the summer, we can worry about everything else then.

[Red Ferret]

"GET IT IN THE MIXER!!!"

[leadman]

lets face it, unless yer a barca fan, football has gone pretty crap

[PolskRed]

This post is probably four games too soon, but I've become annoyed at the forgetfulness of people over the course of the 90 minutes today.It's a great result over an equally garbage team who by their managers own admissions had nothing in the tank. The difference today was physical we had fresh legs. You know who that is down to? SL backing our manager with loan signings, and Coventry's board selling all the best players out from under them. A victory for SL if ever there was one.

Let's speak about fresh legs. Cole Skuse. He ran around a lot today, he worked super hard, he worked hard against Forest too. He is a superb athlete. He is unfortunately the worst footballing midfielder at the club. I'm really sad to see people singing his praises today. This is what's wrong with British football. 100% effort is a minimum requirement, not a praiseworthy action. The fact he's being praised for running around, is an embarrassment to the standards we set ourselves when we came up.

Neil Kilkenny is another one who's been elevated above his station today. He did what? He played decently against a team running on fumes, a poor team running on fumes. He's meant to be the creative force in our midfield and to show up half a dozen games a season isn't something to shout about. He received the ball sprea it out to the wings and moved forwards to support. That's what he's meant to do, and what he's (over)paid to.

Richard Foster. Another case of what's wrong with football in these isles. I was reading with horror/fascination about his performance today. Do people not count distribution in a performance? Woeful player.

Brett Pitman gave the ultimate why I shouldn't start games in the championship audition. Passing, control, technique. Awful. His second touch was a poor pass or a tackle. Even the BBC commentator mentioned him putting in a shift. How about not giving the ball away constantly and not having to make up for your errors.

I'm super happy with the result. And at this stage of the season results are it. We got battered at Forest we won, we looked equal with an abysmal Coventry team and we won. I really care about this club, and this isn't a future I look forward to. We sign a team in the mold of players McInnes has brought in (in the summer) we're looking at a team of players who can't pass or control the ball. This group of players is dreadful.

I've been level headed throughout the McInnes reign. I'm concerned we're going to get much too self congratulatory on beating a team who lets an agent sign their players, a team who should have been liquidated by now, and a team stripped bare of any decent players over a perio of years. Let's not make the mistake we made when we lost in the playoffs, let's not reward failure. Maybe it didn't come across on Tv, but at Forest there was a massive gulf in the footballing intelligence of the two teams. They passed and moved, we were chasing them all over the park and lumping it long. Praising the people giving the ball away, for closing them back down is backwards. Don't give the ball away.

Maybe it will never click for some fans/managers.

This isn't about not getting behind the team, I don't want us to make the same mistakes again, and I don't want to be in this position ever again when it's avoidable. The top 5-6 in league 1 are either big clubs or have money behind them. This is the last year we can afford to be this bad. We were before but definitely now, a small fish in the big championship pond. And we need to think smarter to survive.

I know i'm going to get hit with the stop moaning, and get behind the lads cult that goes on. I'm delighted with the result. I'm concerned about the future. I'm frustrated by the celebration of mediocrity, It's possible to separate the issues.

Done until we start tearing up player's contracts, COYR.

Thanks for that, I think we all understand we are not Manchester United or Arsenal.

Are you maybe confusing a "celebration of mediocrity" with a "celebration of improvement, results and effort"?

[Super]

lets face it, unless yer a barca fan, football has gone pretty crap

don't agree with that. Look at Swansea and the brand of football they play.

[chipdawg]

don't agree with that. Look at Swansea and the brand of football they play.

Erm, while Swansea's brand of football is quite pleasing on the eye, its really not like watching Barcelona is it?! Looking at the stats, they've won less than 1 in 3 of their games this season and lost about 40%. They have a negative goal difference and haved only scored one more goal this season than bottom club Wolves at a rate of marginally over 1 goal a game. Don't get me wrong, Premier League survival is a fantastic achievement for a club like Swansea (and a position i'd give my left testicle for City to be in this season), but lets not get carried away. Neat triangles in midfield are all very well and good, but its goals that are entertainment and Swansea don't score them