The Academy - Serious Questions Need To Be Asked

[notsobigfatdave]

I know this has all been said before, but I will say it again and this time with the sincere belief that the Academy needs one serious and massive overhaul from top to bottom.

I am aware of a growing number of instances where our youth coaches are making huge blunders, where they are unprofessional to deal with, where coaches and parents are sending their kids elsewhere and where we are becoming a complete joke and laughing stock.

We should have the best youth set-up in the South West. We should have our pick of the players from this large region of ours, but alas we are slowly and surely becoming an absolute shambles.

I am not too sure how deep the problems go, but I'd argue they go from the very top of the youth set-up with Academy Manager John Clayton, right to the bottom with Recruitment Officer Trevor Challis.

We've been in the Championship for 5 years now and we have not produced a single home-grown player capable of playing at this level.

When we floundered in League 1 for 8 seasons, we had a few players come through, but how many of them were classed as genuine League 1 players - I can't see very many still out there playing at that level.

In the last 15 years, we've generally produced players who are capable of League 2 at best.

Questions have been asked before, but we really need to start asking some SERIOUS questions now!

There are some very sorry tales to tell.

One lad was recruited as a striker and was asked to play as a midfielder. After one year he was released as he wasn't 'progressing'! His parents took him to Southampton's set-up at Bath Uni and he's now 'progressing' very well as a striker and very likely to be signed by the Saints.

There is also the tale of the goalkeeper George Dorrington who went to Ashton Park School and played for City Junior Supporters Club. He was said to not be 'agile' enough. He attended some trials in Sept 11 and there was lots of interest and evetually Man Utd signed him on a 3 year scholarship in Jan 12 and he's now in Shanghai at the under 18's tournament. Remember - we didn't want this kid!! He lives on our doorstep and is now at Man Utd because we didn't think he was good enough. Does this make you question our recruitment under Mr Challis?

Speak to a lot of coaches in the local area (and a lot of parents for that matter) and they'll tell you that our set-up is a laughing stock. More and more kids are going to the likes of Southampton at Bath, Rovers or Exeter's academy, or the set-ups under Jamie Shore's Academy or Michael Meaker's Academy. Southampton at Bath Uni in particular make us look completely amateur.

I also understand that there is a 'face-fits' culture. They don't talk to some parents as they simply don't like them. Those whose face fits get better treatment - regardless of whether the kid is any good at football!

We've argued so many times on here before about why our kids seem decent up until a certain age and then they fail to progress any further. Is it the poor standard of coaching perhaps? I want to know directly from the likes of Clayton and Challis why we have turned down players like Dorrington, and why kids are seemingly able to make the grade for Southampton but not for us, and why the likes of Jack Butland's family didn't want him playing for City and instead chose Birmingham?

These are hugely important issues which we need to address as soon as we can. We are continually missing out on the best kids and those which we do attract do not progress.

We have the new Fifa Financial Fair Play regulations coming in, and as a result it will be imperitive to our survival that we are able to grow our own. We can't rely on SL bailing us out to the tune of £11m every year. We can't expect to go out and make multiple million pound signings. We can't expect to go out and pay top dollar wages to free agents looking for the best deal. We need to establish a culture where parents in the South West look to Bristol City as the number one youth set-up in the region, where they aspire to having their kids play for us, where we don't turn away the better players due to poor coaching/decisions, where we don't see the talented players progression stifled when they get to age 16.

I want everyone who cares about the future of our club to have a serious think about this. Our current set-up is a joke and parents and other coaches in the region are fully aware of this. It will only get worse unless we do something about this NOW.

The facilities at Failand are all in place, but it's like the Poison Apple. It looks all very nice on the outside, but once you look inside it is rotten to the core. We need to have some transparency. Who is responsible for the continual failure over many years? Why aren't we every parent's first choice? Why aren't kids at the Gloucestersire and Somerset trials recommended to City but instead coaches send them to West Brom, Wolves, Birmingham? (some of these coaches are City Season Ticket Holders and yet do not recommened their own club!!) That is scandalous!!!

We need to do something about this. We need to alert the club to this problem. We need to change the culture. We need to do this for the sake of our own future. I don't have the answers, but perhaps together we might be able to cause enough of a stir to elicit change within that department.

Help our club - post your thoughts on here about our Academy. The club HAVE to listen to us.

Excellent post...infact in my knowledge of these things I would say even Cheltenham two divisons below us have a better set up than city at the moment. something is obviously amiss and I think a root and branch overhaul is required. I cant believe the raw talent is not available in the Bristol catchment area...

[Lack of Action Man]

Just thought I might add my story to the thread as the time finally seems to be right.

In 2009 I had the opportunity to apply to the City academy so I did. The academy were advertising for goalies at the time. I was not invited for a trial but was invited to join the academy keeper coach on Saturdays along with some of the academy keepers for training. I was enticed in under the insinuation that for each keeper your progress would be monitored and if you improved enough you would be recommended to either Cheltenham, Yeovil or City's youth set ups.

I trained with the academy coach for the majority of the 09/10 season without getting anywhere and it cost a fair bit in subs payments too. I was told towards the end of the season that because I didn't live in Bristol, the academy wouldn't trial me (even though I lived within the regulation time/ distance to be eligible). He didn't seem bothered to recommend me to either Cheltenham or Yeovil either.

The next season I trialled for semi-pro side Halesowen Town and was signed for their youth team. I then noticed that the Rovers had a centre of excellence about an hour from where I was living and were advertising for keepers. I applied for a trial not thinking I would get in but sure enough I was offered a 6 week assessment period. After 2 of those weeks I signed on for them.

Sadly, my coach left at the end of that season so did I to go to UWE, where I'm now playing my football too.

Now say what you will about what I've written, i.e. Rovers academy must be a lower standard, you're just bitter about not making it...

No, not at all. I just think that my story is just another in a long line of potential talent being missed out on for either trivial or nonsensical reasons.

[cheese]

Yes, the club missed out on me 40 years ago - I could have been a leg end. As it was, I was snapped up by a bank instead!

[Fiale]

As mentioned though there are lot's of changes to the coaching staff and leadership roles in the academy - let's see how they pan out as the issues addressed in this thread may have already been resolved.

[Number 13 red]

Don't think it is all doom and gloom. My son plays for the acadamy and is receiving some excellant coaching. Yes there are glaring problems,some have already been addressed. Pumping in a Million quid shows city is committed to the cause. Been to a couple of meetings, loads of changes for the better.

From my son's age group havn't seen many teams that are better ability wise, Played Rovers at the gate and there was certainly a big differance, in our favour. (only talking about my son's age group)

[monkeygoblin]

Indeed, the stories coming out of the Academies do not paint a pretty picture and unfortunately word of mouth is a very powerful tool.

As has already been suggested, many many parents and people involved in youth development in our region are aware of our academy's unfavourable reputation.

Someone has already mentioned that the club need to stand up and take notice.... so...... What can we do to affect that?.....

I have a twitter account but rarely use it... Who else uses twitter from here and who in the club can be tweeted?

If we bombard any relevant people (ie those connected to the club) with the same links (ie to this thread) then we can at least say we've done our bit in trying to drive change.

[Sunday League Leg-end]

The OP clearly knows what he's talking about and the amount of youngsters produced at the club speaks for itself.

But I do get the feeling that some of the people complaining about the "professionalism" of the club are bitter parents? Just an observation I could be wrong.

I dont think people realise how good these youngsters need to be. It's a highly competitive sport and millions of young boys want to become professional footballers - are tiny percentage make it....

Just thought I might add my story to the thread as the time finally seems to be right.

In 2009 I had the opportunity to apply to the City academy so I did. The academy were advertising for goalies at the time. I was not invited for a trial but was invited to join the academy keeper coach on Saturdays along with some of the academy keepers for training. I was enticed in under the insinuation that for each keeper your progress would be monitored and if you improved enough you would be recommended to either Cheltenham, Yeovil or City's youth set ups.

I trained with the academy coach for the majority of the 09/10 season without getting anywhere and it cost a fair bit in subs payments too. I was told towards the end of the season that because I didn't live in Bristol, the academy wouldn't trial me (even though I lived within the regulation time/ distance to be eligible). He didn't seem bothered to recommend me to either Cheltenham or Yeovil either.

The next season I trialled for semi-pro side Halesowen Town and was signed for their youth team. I then noticed that the Rovers had a centre of excellence about an hour from where I was living and were advertising for keepers. I applied for a trial not thinking I would get in but sure enough I was offered a 6 week assessment period. After 2 of those weeks I signed on for them.

Sadly, my coach left at the end of that season so did I to go to UWE, where I'm now playing my football too.

Now say what you will about what I've written, i.e. Rovers academy must be a lower standard, you're just bitter about not making it...

No, not at all. I just think that my story is just another in a long line of potential talent being missed out on for either trivial or nonsensical reasons.

I don't mean to be rude - but you are seriously deluded. The reason you haven't been taken on, is because you are nowhere near good enough - and you'll never be. No amount of professional coaching was ever going to make you anywhere near good enough for even semi-pro - let alone league clubs.

Please don't think I am trying to attack you personally, because I am not - far from it. But someone needs to tell you..... Even at the lowest level of football, your just not very good.

[luke_bristol]

Do the under 9s/10s/11s (and younger) play Futsal, 9 a side or 11 a side full pitch?

[Harry]

Left working at the Premier League to take over our Academy as Director about 3 months ago, having also done work with City in the past (remember previous Player features when his boys went abroad for tournaments). Been running the Bath & Wiltshire Primary Schools FA representative teams for maybe 10 years? http://www.bpsfa.com/

Very good guy, work with youngsters is all about getting them to play the right way.

Thanks for posting this 'Coach'. It is encouraging to see (as some other posters have noted) that there is some evidence of change, but by the sounds of some of the other stories, we have a very very long long way to go.

But - I do have one further problem with this. Why are we being informed of the presence and qualities of Tim Kirk by a member of OTIB. As referenced by another poster on this thread, we hear a miniscule amount from the club about our Academy. The Official Club Website holds barely any information, and there are zero press releases.

That's why I asked for some transparency in my opening post. Where is John Clayton? Has he left? Is he now working under Kirk? What exactly is Challis' role? What is Kirk doing to change the culture at the Academy? Does he have anything to say about the hugely disappointing stories we have heard from many a poster? What is his vision? What goals has he set for himself? How does he feel he can turn around the negativity felt by many local coaches and parents? We need some answers. We hear diddly squat about what is ACTUALLY HAPPENING at our Academy, and yet this is our life-blood. We need to be given much more access to information. It's OUR CLUB'S academy, it's not North Korea - why do we not get to hear about this? Perhaps Adam Baker as Media Officer can get us an interview with Tim Kirk and we can find out what is going on to improve this sorry state of affairs.

Believe me - I am encouraged by some of the comments posted here (I was incredibly disappointed before as you can tell by my opening rant), and I am very receptive to the changes Del is making, and I know he has expressed disappointment in our youth set-up, so there are some good things happening. Please can the club shed some light on this and inform it's supporters of the changes that are happening and the future it can see for us. This is an incredibly important subject brought sharply into focus with the FIFA Fair Play regs and we need the club to take action and to communicate with it's fan base as to what those actions are and what they will mean. Not only this, they need to ensure they remedy the broken trust that is felt with local coaches and parents, and they can only do this by declaring their intent and their changes in the local press, on their website, in the schools etc.

Positive action is needed and positive communication is essential. People's perceptions are very hard to change and at the moment our reputation is at an all time low. It will be a long road to recovery, so please, someone tell us that his recovery has already begun. Acknowledge the errors of the past and assure us we are moving in the right direction.

Statement from the Club required - please!!!

[Coach]

_{Do the under 9s/10s/11s (and younger) play Futsal, 9 a side or 11 a side full pitch?}

_{They won't be playing 11-a-side under Tim Kirk, absolutely no way.}

[eskay]

It's shocking to read so many stories of failure at the academy especially as it was always sold as being a cornerstone of our development as a club. It's clear that it hasn't done a great deal for us and something needs to be done.

The son of a bloke I know was invited up to the Academy for them to have a look at the lad as a Goal Keeper, apparently the trial went quite well but the club rejected him on the grounds that he was a year behind those at the same age level and the club felt that while he had potential they would have to invest too much time helping him catch up. I don't know how much was flanel from the Dad and how much was the club soft soaping the lad but it sounds a bit lame. You are either good enough or not. You look good but frankly we can't be bothered seems an odd thing to say.

They don't invest enough in keepers, they put all if their eggs in one basket and have one (occasionally two) keepers at each age group. They must turn away loads of potentially good keepers each year just because they will not accommodate more than 1 or 2.

[eskay]

Do the under 9s/10s/11s (and younger) play Futsal, 9 a side or 11 a side full pitch?

10 & 11s play 9 aside

[NifflerNomad]

Don't think it is all doom and gloom. My son plays for the acadamy and is receiving some excellant coaching. Yes there are glaring problems,some have already been addressed. Pumping in a Million quid shows city is committed to the cause. Been to a couple of meetings, loads of changes for the better.

From my son's age group havn't seen many teams that are better ability wise, Played Rovers at the gate and there was certainly a big differance, in our favour. (only talking about my son's age group)

I was there too. My son plays in goal for the under 9s for city and you see could that city kids were playing as a team passing well while the rovers kids get the ball run abit and then shoot plus just leave they're striker goal hanging all game.

I've heard the city academy has improve a lot this year but they have lost some kids to Southampton academy

[NickJ]

Anyone know anything about Tim Kirk (Academy Director)?

Excellent coach of young kids and more importantly has the right philosophy in terms of how success of training programmes for young kids should be judged. I speak solely from my experience of how my lad has been coached at one of Tim's teams but if its anything to go by I'm more than happy.

The OP is correct if you look to the past and has a point but comments about Julian Dicks for example are not the entire story, and irrelevant to the present.

The club are at long last making efforts to ensure that investment in is exceeded by output out.

As somebody critical of the crapness of how the club has been run in the past that should be taken as a big gold star.

[Ian M]

I happened to be browsing the Academy section of the O/S yesterday and saw this article advertising for new/replacement coaches which backs up what others have been saying on this thread about big changes happening under Kirk.

http://www.bcfc.co.uk/page/NewsDetail/0,,10327~2729959,00.html

[madmax]

I was there too. My son plays in goal for the under 9s for city and you see could that city kids were playing as a team passing well while the rovers kids get the ball run abit and then shoot plus just leave they're striker goal hanging all game.

I've heard the city academy has improve a lot this year but they have lost some kids to Southampton academy

I was there too and heard the U9's was a very good game and pretty equal, this was from one of the City coaches. The U8's game Rovers were winning 4-1 with 5 minutes to go and drew 4-4 for several reasons.

MM

[eskay]

I was there too and heard the U9's was a very good game and pretty equal, this was from one of the City coaches. The U8's game Rovers were winning 4-1 with 5 minutes to go and drew 4-4 for several reasons.

MM

What was the score of the U9s game?

[bs3]

My view is that club shouldn't being having u9 teams it's to young for the kids and gives the parents false hope.

What should be happening it that the club should have very very close links to local youth teams and schools and network of local scouts ( anyone remember jock ray). Get the City coaches coaching local teams and also training the local coaches of these teams on how to coach better .

Then they can invite the cream of these lads from the Bristol area just for training days and get close to the parents . When they get to say u12 or u13 area invite the lads to play for the City youth team against the like of other professional teams, but at the same time the lads can still play with their mates at their local club and still enjoy their football .

[madmax]

What was the score of the U9s game?

A draw as well I think.

MM

[sodburyred]

My view is that club shouldn't being having u9 teams it's to young for the kids and gives the parents false hope.

What should be happening it that the club should have very very close links to local youth teams and schools and network of local scouts ( anyone remember jock ray). Get the City coaches coaching local teams and also training the local coaches of these teams on how to coach better .

Then they can invite the cream of these lads from the Bristol area just for training days and get close to the parents . When they get to say u12 or u13 area invite the lads to play for the City youth team against the like of other professional teams, but at the same time the lads can still play with their mates at their local club and still enjoy their football .

That in theory sounds sensible, but in reality if you don't sign these kids up you risk loosing them to other clubs.

[eskay]

My view is that club shouldn't being having u9 teams it's to young for the kids and gives the parents false hope.

What should be happening it that the club should have very very close links to local youth teams and schools and network of local scouts ( anyone remember jock ray). Get the City coaches coaching local teams and also training the local coaches of these teams on how to coach better .

Then they can invite the cream of these lads from the Bristol area just for training days and get close to the parents . When they get to say u12 or u13 area invite the lads to play for the City youth team against the like of other professional teams, but at the same time the lads can still play with their mates at their local club and still enjoy their football .

The trouble is that those are the golden years for coaching the kids and the clubs want to be training them the way that they see fit from as young an age as possible. Leaving it to the community clubs to coach would expose the kids to lower quality coaching and would (again) leave us lagging behind Europe.

[madmax]

The trouble is that those are the golden years for coaching the kids and the clubs want to be training them the way that they see fit from as young an age as possible. Leaving it to the community clubs to coach would expose the kids to lower quality coaching and would (again) leave us lagging behind Europe.

Totally agree. Kids pick up so many bad habits up to the age of say 10 or 11 that come this age it increases the risk of getting them out of it. They say if a 12 year old doesn't get his chin up and use his vision, he never will. I think thats more a saying than a fact but I have seen many kids try to be taught things and an 'older' age only for it never to sink in or if it does, they soon revert back to it.

"but at the same time the lads can still play with their mates at their local club and still enjoy their football"

As for playing with their mates, what means to say their mates are not at the academy and they enjoy the football there?

MM

[bs3]

The trouble is that those are the golden years for coaching the kids and the clubs want to be training them the way that they see fit from as young an age as possible. Leaving it to the community clubs to coach would expose the kids to lower quality coaching and would (again) leave us lagging behind Europe.

I did make the point about City coaches going to the clubs to teach the kids. As for picking up bad habits I would say its the pressure to win games stops talent at a young age the coaches always picks the biggest strongest players so they bully their opponents and winning is everything even at the expense of becoming better players.

My daughter played under 9 in goal and the biggest lads who kick the longest took the goal kicks ! And this was meant be a footballing club. I was dismayed at this . Can you imagine Spanish or Dutch kids doing this , no they would be rolling the ball out trying to keep possesion and passing the ball instead of hoofing it forward to try and win the game. Remember these kids were 8!!!

[bs3]

Sorry another point I wanted to make was that can over coach kids. By kids practising their technique ie passing dribbling, ball control you do that by playing and playing not always in a organised game but with you mates in a park or by yourself in your back garden on you own kicking a ball against a wall.

[Number 13 red]

my lad started at under 9 with city and in just a few years the standard he is at opposed to his mates are streets apart, so yes get them in early

[Portland Bill]

my lad started at under 9 with city and in just a few years the standard he is at opposed to his mates are streets apart, so yes get them in early

Same as that mate, my son started at Yeovil at 8, the stuff he has learnt and his technique etc is far better than anything he would have got at club level.

[cheese]

Does anyone have a son that hasn't been to a local academy? Reading this thread it seems every lad in a 50 miles radius of Bristol has played for someones academy!

[Tonto]

Well it appears improving the academy is on dels agenda as we have offered the job of "head of coaching" to Willie Mcstay. The role is a new one at city and will be similar to one already in place at Celtic.

Assume this will cover both 1st team, development squad and academy. Perhaps somebody to ensure quality and consistent methods are being used at all levels of the club.

[Portland Bill]

Does anyone have a son that hasn't been to a local academy? Reading this thread it seems every lad in a 50 miles radius of Bristol has played for someones academy!

When your son plays at at COE or Acadamy its obvious that you will show an interest in this thread.

[Number 13 red]

Does anyone have a son that hasn't been to a local academy? Reading this thread it seems every lad in a 50 miles radius of Bristol has played for someones academy!

Lots and lots of trialist come and go but not that many gets signed. When you think of a hour from the training ground that's a lot of clubs and kids to go through. This will however disapear under the new sructure.