The Red Planet Posted October 24, 2012 Report Share Posted October 24, 2012 Like most of you, I was pretty depressed after last night's defeat v Burnley. Score three at home and still lose ?? I have just spent quite a long time trawling all the various threads about Mcinnes. I must say that the most intelligent, balanced and informed comments about our current situation come from otib regular poster Nibor - as usual. Nibor - your deep knowledge of our club (and the game generally) make me hesistant about posting. How could I better that ? Read his posts. His analysis is brilliant. What I will say is this. The majority view amongst City fans (myself included) is that Mcinnes is basically a good manager who we should support. Of course you can criticise decisions - like last night when he took off Davies (our best player up to then) but actually after that - we played our best football for the last 20 mins - especially with the introduction of Anderson who I thought looked really lively. So - remember, DMC took St Johnstone up to the SPL. And as many on here have said, changing a manager every year is madness. Stick with DMC. I am confident it will work out in the end,. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Posted October 24, 2012 Report Share Posted October 24, 2012 I posted the following last night and want to repeat it given this thread. Anyone wanting to remove McInnes is quite simply insane. The bloke has been in charge for a year and literally has had to change a whole team of players bar the right wing in Adomah. Aside from that, none of the team he inherited are good enough for mid-table championship. He has improved us at GK, LB, RB, ST & ST. That is 5 positions in the team upgraded in one year. You could argue that Anderson will in the long run prove more useful than Wooly, so arguably 6 positions of the required 10 have been upgraded in 1 year. You can't do it all overnight, and people will rightly argue that the 2 CB and 2 CM positions are our most needy, but there is no doubt to me that he knows he needs to get better in these positions. I know this because he has signed 3 different CB's on loan since he's been here, as well as signing 2 CM's permanently and 1 other on loan since he's been here (granted it would appear the 2 CM's he's signed are not an upgrade (although I do feel Morris given the chance is an upgrade on Skuse for sure! - but you're not going to get 100% success rate). Clearly the targets he is going for are not willing to come to BCFC due to one of either wages or league prospects, not because of McInnes. As I said, for me he has upgraded 6 positions. He now needs to be given the time to upgrade the other 4. 2 CB's and 2 CM's are needed, but we're not going to get them all at once, it'll take time, and one year is not enough time. Yes, we are all baffled as to why he is persevering with the Skuse/Pearson combo and for me at the moment this is the only thing I can question Del on - I just don't get it, but maybe it's because he genuinely feels that Kilkenny/Elliot/Morris are simply not good enough. I don't feel that this is our best midfield pairing but clearly Del does, and I disagree with him on that and would remove Skuse immediately. This does not in my mind though make him a bad manager, just one which I disagree with on that point. He has also made incredible strides off the field and has had a firm hand in overhauling the backroom staff and turning his attention to improving our academy. Yes, the results haven't been great recently and he needs to find a way of continuing to score goals but also to shore up the defence. But I'll tell you for sure - we are in a hugely better place as a football club than we were this time last year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chappers Posted October 24, 2012 Report Share Posted October 24, 2012 I agree that it is not time to look at removing Del, but equally I won't just have blind faith. There are countless examples of manager with previously outstanding records failing, it is usually a case of right man, right time, right club, and I'm yet to be convinced. I see a mixed bag of positives and negatives, I hope he comes good, but there are a few worrying signs. I also wonder if expectation may be too high, we are a small club at Championship level, and now that we are looking to live more within our means, it will be more difficult to recruit. As for 'hugely better place' - maybe recent results suggest that is over-stating things somewhat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrizzleRed Posted October 24, 2012 Report Share Posted October 24, 2012 Like most of you, I was pretty depressed after last night's defeat v Burnley. Score three at home and still lose ?? I have just spent quite a long time trawling all the various threads about Mcinnes. I must say that the most intelligent, balanced and informed comments about our current situation come from otib regular poster Nibor - as usual. Nibor - your deep knowledge of our club (and the game generally) make me hesistant about posting. How could I better that ? Read his posts. His analysis is brilliant. What I will say is this. The majority view amongst City fans (myself included) is that Mcinnes is basically a good manager who we should support. Of course you can criticise decisions - like last night when he took off Davies (our best player up to then) but actually after that - we played our best football for the last 20 mins - especially with the introduction of Anderson who I thought looked really lively. So - remember, DMC took St Johnstone up to the SPL. And as many on here have said, changing a manager every year is madness. Stick with DMC. I am confident it will work out in the end,. Agree with everything you say there RP and in particular about Nibor. Whenever people are getting carried away with knee-jerk reactions, you can bank on Nibor to bring everything into sharp focus with well thought out, thoughtful and realistic comments. There are a few on here who continually spout carp and I usually skim through or totally ignore their comments, as they usually aren't worth wasting the time to read them. On the other hand, I've never once seen Nibor anything other than sensible and worthwhile comment and it's people like that who make this forum worth reading. For what it's worth, I reckon DMC needs to given however long he needs to turn this club round, because if he hasn't got the answer to our problems, we are in very deep $h*t. If he can't sort it, I think this will indicate our problems can't be fixed by any manager and run far deeper than just the playing staff. Hopefully things will turn round soon, but this mentality of wanting instant success or sack the manager is killing football, just as surely as greedy players and agents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Youngish Posted October 24, 2012 Report Share Posted October 24, 2012 Finally, some sense. Top posts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snarf Posted October 24, 2012 Report Share Posted October 24, 2012 Sacking him is pointless because who would do a better job with the same resources? But therein lies the problem....why was our second best player offered a pay cut to stay? Why wasn't enough money made available for a CB? Why couldn't we compete with Millwall for the signature of Danny Shittu? I understand the wage bill needed slashing to stay onside with FFP, but the bloke lurches from one extreme to the next. Keeping Cisse and signing a CB was not exactly a decadent purchase - it was a bare minimum requirement. Steve Lansdown is a bad influence on this club and needs to sell up. Just my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WolfOfWestStreet Posted October 24, 2012 Report Share Posted October 24, 2012 Agree with all. However DM should not be immune to criticism. Some people have been shot down for making comments (probably in the aftermath) that have gone against the grain. Before I say anymore DM is the right man for the job and I back him all the way. What I don't support is this angst against fellow posters who at times (legitimately) question his abilities. These people are not "deluded", "mental" "insane" but sharing their thoughts. Even the best managers, eg. Wenger have massive critics, DM is no different (obviously not at the same level just yet) What I'm getting at, badly, is yes - lets encourage our talented manger as much as we can but let's not blindly go "in del we trust" as an answer to everything, if he deserves it give him praise, if he doesn't then let's let's debate why he has gone wrong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pigeon Posted October 24, 2012 Report Share Posted October 24, 2012 I posted the following last night and want to repeat it given this thread. Anyone wanting to remove McInnes is quite simply insane. The bloke has been in charge for a year and literally has had to change a whole team of players bar the right wing in Adomah. Aside from that, none of the team he inherited are good enough for mid-table championship. He has improved us at GK, LB, RB, ST & ST. That is 5 positions in the team upgraded in one year. You could argue that Anderson will in the long run prove more useful than Wooly, so arguably 6 positions of the required 10 have been upgraded in 1 year. You can't do it all overnight, and people will rightly argue that the 2 CB and 2 CM positions are our most needy, but there is no doubt to me that he knows he needs to get better in these positions. I know this because he has signed 3 different CB's on loan since he's been here, as well as signing 2 CM's permanently and 1 other on loan since he's been here (granted it would appear the 2 CM's he's signed are not an upgrade (although I do feel Morris given the chance is an upgrade on Skuse for sure! - but you're not going to get 100% success rate). Clearly the targets he is going for are not willing to come to BCFC due to one of either wages or league prospects, not because of McInnes. As I said, for me he has upgraded 6 positions. He now needs to be given the time to upgrade the other 4. 2 CB's and 2 CM's are needed, but we're not going to get them all at once, it'll take time, and one year is not enough time. Yes, we are all baffled as to why he is persevering with the Skuse/Pearson combo and for me at the moment this is the only thing I can question Del on - I just don't get it, but maybe it's because he genuinely feels that Kilkenny/Elliot/Morris are simply not good enough. I don't feel that this is our best midfield pairing but clearly Del does, and I disagree with him on that and would remove Skuse immediately. This does not in my mind though make him a bad manager, just one which I disagree with on that point. He has also made incredible strides off the field and has had a firm hand in overhauling the backroom staff and turning his attention to improving our academy. Yes, the results haven't been great recently and he needs to find a way of continuing to score goals but also to shore up the defence. But I'll tell you for sure - we are in a hugely better place as a football club than we were this time last year. Spot on, think everyone on this forum needs to read this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiz Posted October 25, 2012 Report Share Posted October 25, 2012 Davies was taken off as he was tired. I totally agree we have to get behind del. And yours sir is a great post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eskay Posted October 25, 2012 Report Share Posted October 25, 2012 Davies was taken off as he was tired. I totally agree we have to get behind del. And yours sir is a great post Great thread. We only see the players for a handful of minutes each week. DM sees them all week and he will see things in training that we do not. He knows the players and will know how much he can get out of them on a particular match (Davies for example). He may well have planned to have subbed Davies around that time even before a ball was kicked. He may have him down as being a big part of his tactics for Hull so wanted him fresh for that. Too many people on here know more than Derek does with only limited exposure to the players (and without even talking to them) - an incredible achievement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chipdawg Posted October 25, 2012 Report Share Posted October 25, 2012 Davies went off because he's not yet fully fit according to Del I wasn't there Tuesday night so won't comment on the specifics of last nights loss, but we need to remember that last season we were leaking goals AND we weren't scoring; at least Del has sorted one of the problems and I think because a level of progress gas been made I still believe Del is the right man for the job. However, this defencive thing has become a full blown crisis IMO and he needs to sort it out very quickly. On results alone (this season and last) I'm not convinced that McManus alone is the answer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sglosbcfc Posted October 25, 2012 Report Share Posted October 25, 2012 In modern football this belief is increasingly being lost, but if football fans could leave emotion aside and the desperate desire for their team to win every week and think calmly in a level headed way, they would have to agree that two seasons is an absolute minimum requirement for a manager to make any real difference to a football club. McInnes took over a football club that was bottom of the championship, let us see where City are at the end of the season and then we can make a more reasoned judgement. I for one think we have a good manager and that we will be mid table by the end of the season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snufflelufagus Posted October 25, 2012 Report Share Posted October 25, 2012 I agree with a lot of this on here. What I don't understand is surely there are some good centre backs at league one of even two level that we could recruit. Wages and both transfer fees would be much lower. They would also (hopefully) be much hungrier to prove themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sglosbcfc Posted October 25, 2012 Report Share Posted October 25, 2012 I agree with a lot of this on here. What I don't understand is surely there are some good centre backs at league one of even two level that we could recruit. Wages and both transfer fees would be much lower. They would also (hopefully) be much hungrier to prove themselves. Think Jamie McCombe, excellent League one centre back, but often cruelly exposed by Championship forwards. We sometimes forget that there is a huge chasm between the quality of strikers in League one and the Championship. And don't get me started on the 'quality' you find in the lower reaches of League two - enjoy gasheads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snufflelufagus Posted October 25, 2012 Report Share Posted October 25, 2012 Think Jamie McCombe, excellent League one centre back, but often cruelly exposed by Championship forwards. We sometimes forget that there is a huge chasm between the quality of strikers in League one and the Championship. And don't get me started on the 'quality' you find in the lower reaches of League two - enjoy gasheads. Yes maybe but desire and the will to win the first header or throw their body in front of a shot goes a long way. Something I'd say is missing at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisBCFC Posted October 25, 2012 Report Share Posted October 25, 2012 A lot of people are very concerned with His INABILITY to sort our problem areas out. We all knew we were shit in defence and even shitter in the centre of midfield. But he hasn't solved it, and hasn't done the obvious.....and where do we stand at the moment? One place out of the relegation zone. Still cannot understand why the likes of Anderson hasn't featured, and why we signed Morris i cannot understand Should he be sacked? No of course not......but am I concerned? VERY. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eco Posted October 25, 2012 Report Share Posted October 25, 2012 No manager will ever please every single fan, hence they're always in a no win situation and why they hopefully don't read forums. When DMac took over we were rock bottom, in a worse position than Ipswich currently are, and to escape releagtion last season was a great achievement. We have made progress since then, that's obvious, he's a bright young manager so just let him get on with the job. Must admit the booing from the Dullmoan was slightly worrying though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCFC_Dan Posted October 25, 2012 Report Share Posted October 25, 2012 Yes maybe but desire and the will to win the first header or throw their body in front of a shot goes a long way. Something I'd say is missing at the moment. This is a point I've been labouring for some time now. In terms of pure ability our current squad is miles better than the playoff final squad but it's mentally weak. Jamie McCombe isn't really good enough for Championship football but his attitude allowed him to be successful. Hardly a game went by that he didn't make some catastrophic error that he then rectified by going up the other end and scoring. Had the 07/08 squad been playing against Burnley the other night you'd have seen McCombe, Orr, Basso et al hurling themselves in the way of the ball to keep it out of the goal. We have more quality now but we don't have the desire. And I don't think the answer is a Johnson-style hand grenade because you need the right sort of players to react to that and we don't have enough of them. McInnes was a mentally tough player himself so I think he knows what's needed but he hasn't quite got it yet. A league one player with the right attitude might help stave off any problems in the short term but longer term McInnes needs to find a player with attitude and ability and that's pretty tough with the budget he has to work with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brizzle Jordan Posted October 25, 2012 Report Share Posted October 25, 2012 Del will come good, it has to be this year though because if we are in a relegation fight all year he will leave as he said doesnt want to be part of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Fleuriot Posted October 25, 2012 Report Share Posted October 25, 2012 Agree with all. However DM should not be immune to criticism. Some people have been shot down for making comments (probably in the aftermath) that have gone against the grain. Before I say anymore DM is the right man for the job and I back him all the way. What I don't support is this angst against fellow posters who at times (legitimately) question his abilities. These people are not "deluded", "mental" "insane" but sharing their thoughts. Even the best managers, eg. Wenger have massive critics, DM is no different (obviously not at the same level just yet) What I'm getting at, badly, is yes - lets encourage our talented manger as much as we can but let's not blindly go "in del we trust" as an answer to everything, if he deserves it give him praise, if he doesn't then let's let's debate why he has gone wrong I draw a distinction myself in terms of types of criticism. It's all about language. "I was surprised Davies came off early. Thought he was our best chance of scoring, especially the way that he was bringing the midfield into play, and Baldock wasn't having any luck against their centre backs" = criticism that I may disagree with, but clearly expression of an opinion. "Why the hell did Davies come off? Del is being clueless YET AGAIN! Baldock was crap tonight and anyone could see he wouldn't score. Am SERIOUSLY fed up with the way this club is going" = over the top, not helpful, and, frankly, a bit insane. Both make the same point. To my mind, the former encourages debate about performance and can be sustained even when winning. The latter, which I see far more often on this forum, discourages calm discussion and heaps on negativity, which I can't but feel transfers into matchday attitudes. In other words, everyone should just calm the frick down. Oh, and while I'm here, I agree that Nibor understands what's going on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
real_bristol Posted October 25, 2012 Report Share Posted October 25, 2012 A lot of people are very concerned with His INABILITY to sort our problem areas out. We all knew we were shit in defence and even shitter in the centre of midfield. But he hasn't solved it, and hasn't done the obvious.....and where do we stand at the moment? One place out of the relegation zone. Still cannot understand why the likes of Anderson hasn't featured, and why we signed Morris i cannot understand Should he be sacked? No of course not......but am I concerned? VERY. Id have to disagree with the defence I'm afraid. He bought in Cunningham who (although I've only seen him play once in a league game) offered a great deal of balance to the left hand side of the park, so much so Woolford became a new signing. When injured he signed Elokobi who according to many on here is just as good. He also waited on McManus and is now apparently paying under half the wages that he's on at boro - with games he too should also offer some stability. You have to take into account the bad luck on injuries, Elliot and Kilkenny have are also injured although the jury is still out on the latter for me. I still think there is more to see from the Skuse Elliot combo, but all that said if McInnes had had an opportunity (in terms of value) to sign the same type of player for CB and CM I know he would have jumped at the chance. The other thing I like is that he's pretty covert when it comes to signing players, we've suffered in the past when being openly interested in quality, other "bigger" clubs come in and beat us to it. He needs time to improve the whole team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiz Posted October 25, 2012 Report Share Posted October 25, 2012 Top post ^^^^^"^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beaverface Posted October 25, 2012 Report Share Posted October 25, 2012 I agree that it is not time to look at removing Del, but equally I won't just have blind faith. There are countless examples of manager with previously outstanding records failing, it is usually a case of right man, right time, right club, and I'm yet to be convinced. I see a mixed bag of positives and negatives, I hope he comes good, but there are a few worrying signs. I also wonder if expectation may be too high, we are a small club at Championship level, and now that we are looking to live more within our means, it will be more difficult to recruit. As for 'hugely better place' - maybe recent results suggest that is over-stating things somewhat. To be fair, a majority of fans would expect to win all our games or not concede the odd winner here or there, or even get the odd tanking, but what we don't expect to is to let three goals in every game! That's not high expectations, but just wanting us to be reasonable competitive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BITW Posted October 25, 2012 Report Share Posted October 25, 2012 Del will come good, it has to be this year though because if we are in a relegation fight all year he will leave as he said doesnt want to be part of that. I highly doubt he'll just bail out on us as soon as the going gets tough(er.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
City's Defence!! Posted October 25, 2012 Report Share Posted October 25, 2012 Personally i cant understand why people are voicing that they want Mcinness out to be honest. Ok we are conceding goals alarmingly but now the difference is between the Johnson/Millen era is the amount of goals were scoring down the other end. I cant remember the last time we had strikers with the techincal ability of Baldock and Davies. Baldock has a quiet game score a pen. Davies set pieces are excellent and coming into form. If we are able to sign a good centre back on loan or buy in January then i think anything can happen. People have got to have patience. How can a club grow if we keep chopping and changing managers it doesnt help anyone. I thought the problem the other night was neither full back were over lapping helping the wingers out. Adomah every time he had the ball he was surronded by 2 to 3 players. M Wilson didnt overlap more then once all he offered to Albert was a pass back. He didnt take one defender off of Albert so couldnt do anything with it. Carey was just woeful when he came on tuesday. Definatly past his best but it goes to show what Del thinks of Nyatanga and J. Wilson in my opinion. Every team goes through a slump but we will be fine still a mid-table finish in my eyes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loderingo Posted October 25, 2012 Report Share Posted October 25, 2012 For me it is very simple. if we did sack McInnes then I would expect that to cost us a quarter a million quid or so. We hire Mr New Manager. He comes in and says to the board - the defence isn't good enough I want to get someone on loan. Better to spend money on getting good players on loan than sacking the manager. If the players, weren't playing for the manager you might say sack him but I don't think that's the case seeing we battled to come back from 3-1 down The problem is a lack of quality at CB. Fontaine for whatever reason has gone off the boil, Carey is too old, Nyatanga was never much cop, Wilson is unproven. If only we could get another Caulker in then we could still quite well this year.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park End Boy Posted October 25, 2012 Report Share Posted October 25, 2012 I highly doubt he'll just bail out on us as soon as the going gets tough(er.) Agreed, think there's more to Del than we give him credit for, he's instilled a never say die attitude in the team, Me thinks he's a fighter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brizzle Jordan Posted October 25, 2012 Report Share Posted October 25, 2012 I mean he will leave in the summer, he has set a target of a respectable position this season without having to worry about relegation, if that happens in the summer he'd either be sacked or he'll resign imo. Especially if the fans get on his back like they did with Millen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Hitler Posted October 25, 2012 Report Share Posted October 25, 2012 For me it is very simple. if we did sack McInnes then I would expect that to cost us a quarter a million quid or so. We hire Mr New Manager. He comes in and says to the board - the defence isn't good enough I want to get someone on loan. Better to spend money on getting good players on loan than sacking the manager. If the players, weren't playing for the manager you might say sack him but I don't think that's the case seeing we battled to come back from 3-1 down The problem is a lack of quality at CB. Fontaine for whatever reason has gone off the boil, Carey is too old, Nyatanga was never much cop, Wilson is unproven. If only we could get another Caulker in then we could still quite well this year.... Spot on, saved me typing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park End Boy Posted October 25, 2012 Report Share Posted October 25, 2012 I mean he will leave in the summer, he has set a target of a respectable position this season without having to worry about relegation, if that happens in the summer he'd either be sacked or he'll resign imo. Especially if the fans get on his back like they did with Millen I personaly cant see that happening, he came to us unproven in the english game ( management ), last season he got the team playing well, and fighting, cos their futures depended on it, i am sure he will turn things around and plug the gaps in our leaky defence and send us up to a dizzy mid-table finish Thats all we could expect from him at the begining of the season, if he achieves that, imo he deserves credit But it aint what he needs, he wants what all of us want...success, he needs to make his mark in the english game to justify his move south, so my guess is he will be around for a few years to come, and as for fans on his back, we all know what a fickle bunch we are, two good results and he will be walking on cider...just my opinion so shoot me down lightly please Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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