Is Something Deeper At Fault?

[Olé]

not meaning to open a conspiracy discussion but does anyone else think there must be a reason why regardless what manager or players we sign, we rarely improve? the best we can hope for is stay the same!

Where does this continual pattern of players refusing to play for the manager come from?

To quote myself from another thread yesterday:

The problems with players go back a lot lot further, since money came into the game. We're not a very good place for players since the sport became about money. Our club can't win - big fish, small pond so low expectations compared to other cities, no real pride, and all at once we pay enough for players to be big bollocked and complacent, yet not enough to make a difference quality speaking.

Arguably looking at the other thread about players wages, what we need to do is actually embrace disparity, stop paying lot of average players decent money to waste around in Bristol and simply pay top dollar to 3 players who can make a difference until we can get the club up the league. A nucleus of young local players and one top class player in each position is better than an overpaid substandard squad.

The problem is with contracts etc it takes several years to re-group and transition the club to this sort of approach and we never let a manager last long enough to do so, not that managers are blameless themselves as they usually fail to get a grip of the players around them and end up having to raid the transfer and loan markets to fix things short-term, which just mortgages the problem.

[Eco]

To me, Fontaine is just appallingly out of form at the moment. He urgently needs a break from the team but I still think he's, at the very least, a decent squad player in the Championship.

I think DMac is between a rock and a hard place, Fonts isn't playing horrendously recently, but if he drops him it would have to be for Tangs & if we subsequently shipped a few goals there would be hell to play for leaving out our 'best' CB.

[Timbo7]

Yes there is something deeper -0- and sadly I am convinced it is the players not the management. The likes of Fontaine and Elliot whilst not all that good are certainly not the abysmal performers we have seen of late.

My scenario -- no contacts or rumours but based on decades of watching City fail more miserably than any other similar sized club is that:-

My suspicion is that he has told some of them what he really thinks ie they will be offloaded as quickly as possible -- they then rebel, the word gets around the football grapevine very quickly that all is not well so why should anyonewant to come here. Del cannot say what needs to be said in public as he would immediately be hammered by the PFA -- so the players remain in control. If they force Del out then they may get the reprieve on their contracts he is clearly not willing to give them.

I think Del will be a very good manager

If Del is to become a very good manager he might need to learn not to tell players what he really thinks of them (not that I believe for a second that your suspicion has merit) if this leads to poor performances and to better players refusing to come here as you suggest. A key role for any manager in any walk of life is to get the maximum performance from the available resources - it is this more than anything else (e.g. transfers, tactics formations etc.) that Derek is conspicuously failing to achieve.

[Timbo7]

Managers have come in done badly but gone onto better things, I bet Derek will be the same.

How many of Cooper, Lumsden, Smith, Osman, Jordan, Ward, Benny, Stinking Gashead, Fawthrop, Wilson, Tinnion, Johnson, Coppell or Millen have gone on to better things? - I, as I assume you intend, we are limiting "better things" to managing (rather then coaching or assisting) professional football clubs to greater success, the answer to this is just the stinking gashead (I am not sure he was sacked). As far as I am aware none of the others have gone on to manage a club in a higher division than us and only one has achieved a promotion (I think Ward achieved this from the 4th division at Cheltenham)

The truth is that Ashton Gate has proved to be something of a graveyard for careers in football management just as it has for goal scorers and players on loan.

[Timbo7]

Depressingly, I think you're right. "Player power" seems to be all too common these days. The players don't like a manager's methods, they decide to stop playing for him - cos they know that soon enough it'll lead to him getting the boot. And even more depressingly, this doesn't reflect badly on the players in the long term because football is one of the few industries in the world where you can be completely and utterly useless and still get snapped up by another club for huge wages.

Saying all that, it's still Del's job to show the players who's boss. Somehow I can't see Fergie standing for any shit (mind you, he does have the benefit of being able to say, 'Play badly and you'll never play for Man United again'.

Tempting though it is to believe that performances apparently lacking in passion, effort and aptitude are the product of player conspiracy or absence of character, this IMO is rarely if ever the case. I can clearly remember making the same accusations in regard to TC's fading team in 1987/8 and Lumsden's in 1991/2 before the internet was invented. The truth is that belief, self-motivation, determination and drive are fickle mistresses for all but a fortunate (frequently obstinate) few (e.g. Shaun Taylor, Gerry Gow, Rob Newman, Freddie Flintoff, Winston Churchill, Steven Gerrard dare I say John Terry) and are quickly driven from the scene by fear of failure and self-doubt. Professional football players are no different to the rest of us in this regard except that their failures are immediately evident to thousands who they do not know and who are quick to criticise in the plainest of terms - for all of their exorbitant income this cannot make it easier.

There are few consistently failing teams who don't appear to lack the same things that we appear to lack and there are few fans' forums that do not include the same observations when their teams are failing.

Would Wayne Rooney's performance in the 2010 World Cup look out of place in our team at the moment?

Did the England team's dislike of Capello cause the players to intentionally sacrifice a (in some cases their last or only) World Cup campaign?

Were all the players devoid of talent?

Wayne Rooney is talented enough and lucky enough to play for a club where despair is seldom evident and is part of strong enough squad that he can be effectively substituted if and when self-doubt raises its head (relieving him of the unbearable pressure that can destroy a lesser player). When he travels with England there is no such safety net and he can succumb to the same soul-destroying doubts as the rest of us.

It is the role the management team to somehow overcome this barrier to success. It is by no means easy and certainly no easier at Bristol City than it is at Manchester United. I have no doubt that Derek and his crew are currently doing all and everything they can to give the players belief but it is not working and is becoming more difficult with every defeat

[SecretSam]

How many of Cooper, Lumsden, Smith, Osman, Jordan, Ward, Benny, Stinking Gashead, Fawthrop, Wilson, Tinnion, Johnson, Coppell or Millen have gone on to better things? - I, as I assume you intend, we are limiting "better things" to managing (rather then coaching or assisting) professional football clubs to greater success, the answer to this is just the stinking gashead (I am not sure he was sacked). As far as I am aware none of the others have gone on to manage a club in a higher division than us and only one has achieved a promotion (I think Ward achieved this from the 4th division at Cheltenham)

The truth is that Ashton Gate has proved to be something of a graveyard for careers in football management just as it has for goal scorers and players on loan.

The stinking Gashead in question (Lousy Pint), may his testicles rot in hell, left of his own accord to go to Pompy. I went to the first game after - Bournemouth away (which we won) - and bumped into some Pompy fans in a services after. They'd just played Wolves, for whom Akinbiyi - sold by the Welsh thing - scored. I laughed out loud when they told me, and one of them turned to the other and said "I told you that would happen". One of the all time best footie days...

[Red-Robbo]

How many of Cooper, Lumsden, Smith, Osman, Jordan, Ward, Benny, Stinking Gashead, Fawthrop, Wilson, Tinnion, Johnson, Coppell or Millen have gone on to better things? - I, as I assume you intend, we are limiting "better things" to managing (rather then coaching or assisting) professional football clubs to greater success, the answer to this is just the stinking gashead (I am not sure he was sacked). As far as I am aware none of the others have gone on to manage a club in a higher division than us and only one has achieved a promotion (I think Ward achieved this from the 4th division at Cheltenham)

The truth is that Ashton Gate has proved to be something of a graveyard for careers in football management just as it has for goal scorers and players on loan.

Wilson got Hartlepool promoted; Cooper got Birmingham and - I think - Exter promoted; Benny won the Norwegian cup three times with Viking; and I hardly regard being first-team coach at Spurs as a backward step for Joe.

Of course, if you go back from Cooper you'll find we were managed by some obscure bloke called Roy Hodgson. Wonder what happened to him?

[myol'man]

Johnson 'lost' the dressing room. Millen 'lost' the dressing room. Has McInnes now 'lost' the dressing room?

It's not down to management its perhaps a certain player or a group of players or even board members who are spreading a poison among the club. In my opinion keep McInnes and sack most of the players.

When Johnson 'lost' the dressing room at half time at Plymouth, the 4 players involved should have been instantly dismissed. That would have sent a message out.

[Monkeh]

When Johnson 'lost' the dressing room at half time at Plymouth, the 4 players involved should have been instantly dismissed. That would have sent a message out.

for some one who "loses" the dressing room as often as Johnson please explain to me how the players he meant to of lost keep signing for him?

[GlennHumphrys1]

Tempting though it is to believe that performances apparently lacking in passion, effort and aptitude are the product of player conspiracy or absence of character, this IMO is rarely if ever the case. I can clearly remember making the same accusations in regard to TC's fading team in 1987/8 and Lumsden's in 1991/2 before the internet was invented. The truth is that belief, self-motivation, determination and drive are fickle mistresses for all but a fortunate (frequently obstinate) few (e.g. Shaun Taylor, Gerry Gow, Rob Newman, Freddie Flintoff, Winston Churchill, Steven Gerrard dare I say John Terry) and are quickly driven from the scene by fear of failure and self-doubt. Professional football players are no different to the rest of us in this regard except that their failures are immediately evident to thousands who they do not know and who are quick to criticise in the plainest of terms - for all of their exorbitant income this cannot make it easier.

There are few consistently failing teams who don't appear to lack the same things that we appear to lack and there are few fans' forums that do not include the same observations when their teams are failing.

Would Wayne Rooney's performance in the 2010 World Cup look out of place in our team at the moment?

Did the England team's dislike of Capello cause the players to intentionally sacrifice a (in some cases their last or only) World Cup campaign?

Were all the players devoid of talent?

Wayne Rooney is talented enough and lucky enough to play for a club where despair is seldom evident and is part of strong enough squad that he can be effectively substituted if and when self-doubt raises its head (relieving him of the unbearable pressure that can destroy a lesser player). When he travels with England there is no such safety net and he can succumb to the same soul-destroying doubts as the rest of us.

It is the role the management team to somehow overcome this barrier to success. It is by no means easy and certainly no easier at Bristol City than it is at Manchester United. I have no doubt that Derek and his crew are currently doing all and everything they can to give the players belief but it is not working and is becoming more difficult with every defeat

Good post. What's the answer though?

[Snufflelufagus]

Good post. What's the answer though?

Derren Brown.

[Timbo7]

Wilson got Hartlepool promoted; Cooper got Birmingham and - I think - Exter promoted; Benny won the Norwegian cup three times with Viking; and I hardly regard being first-team coach at Spurs as a backward step for Joe.

Of course, if you go back from Cooper you'll find we were managed by some obscure bloke called Roy Hodgson. Wonder what happened to him?

I stand corrected - thank you - I had completely forgotten Terry's post-City career!

I'll leave the Norwegian cup for others to evaluate

4th division championship at Exeter (and a subsequent third division relegation) and 3rd division promotion for Birmingham City for Terry Cooper - success at precisely what he failed to achieve at Bristol City

4th division promotion at Hartlepool for Danny Wilson - plus continuing the spectacular play-off record begun here

I had elected not to commence my analysis in 1982 as few could argue that Bob and Roy were not hindered by the club's financial predicament at that time BUT it is true that Roy's record is probably the best available illustration of how well other ex-City managers have typically done since.

So since 1982 Bristol City has sacked 12 managers who have since between them achieved 3 promotions from the 4th division, one from the 3rd and three cup wins in Norway - plus some success in other jobs (in one case notable). More than half of them (did Russell actually manage the Gas?) have yet to manage another club in England.

Does this suggest that they were all prevented from achieving their true potential at Bristol City by some mysterious and unique obstacle - as I had understood was suggested?

[downendcity]

for some one who "loses" the dressing room as often as Johnson please explain to me how the players he meant to of lost keep signing for him?

I have a funny feeling that a player GJ never signed might have had a big part to play in helping him lose the dressing room.

[myol'man]

for some one who "loses" the dressing room as often as Johnson please explain to me how the players he meant to of lost keep signing for him?

Because they weren't good enough to go anywhere else.

[Red-Robbo]

I stand corrected - thank you - I had completely forgotten Terry's post-City career!

I'll leave the Norwegian cup for others to evaluate

4th division championship at Exeter (and a subsequent third division relegation) and 3rd division promotion for Birmingham City for Terry Cooper - success at precisely what he failed to achieve at Bristol City

4th division promotion at Hartlepool for Danny Wilson - plus continuing the spectacular play-off record begun here

I had elected not to commence my analysis in 1982 as few could argue that Bob and Roy were not hindered by the club's financial predicament at that time BUT it is true that Roy's record is probably the best available illustration of how well other ex-City managers have typically done since.

So since 1982 Bristol City has sacked 12 managers who have since between them achieved 3 promotions from the 4th division, one from the 3rd and three cup wins in Norway - plus some success in other jobs (in one case notable). More than half of them (did Russell actually manage the Gas?) have yet to manage another club in England.

Does this suggest that they were all prevented from achieving their true potential at Bristol City by some mysterious and unique obstacle - as I had understood was suggested?

I just think we've knocked around at lower league level - mostly third tier, occasionally second - for most of our existence and we got the managers suited to that sort of job.

Both Wilson and Johnson are good managers for a L1 club. The only time we appointed a big managerial 'name' - Coppell - "he go crazy". *to be said in a Manuel from Fawlty Towers voice*

[Eco]

How many of Cooper, Lumsden, Smith, Osman, Jordan, Ward, Benny, Stinking Gashead, Fawthrop, Wilson, Tinnion, Johnson, Coppell or Millen have gone on to better things? - I, as I assume you intend, we are limiting "better things" to managing (rather then coaching or assisting) professional football clubs to greater success, the answer to this is just the stinking gashead (I am not sure he was sacked). As far as I am aware none of the others have gone on to manage a club in a higher division than us and only one has achieved a promotion (I think Ward achieved this from the 4th division at Cheltenham)

The truth is that Ashton Gate has proved to be something of a graveyard for careers in football management just as it has for goal scorers and players on loan.

I somehow doubt if we're alone in that though.

Also would be interesting to know what criteria is used how to judge a successful career in management ? Presumably win % woud have to apply but over what number of games, as a bare minimum, bearing in mind the shelf life of managers.

In the Championship I'd say only Steve Bruce, Neil Warnock and Dave Jones have had long successful management careers.

[Fiale]

We should accept the fact even in the Championship we are deemed very low on the list of clubs players would care to play for. We should therefore invest a large amount in a spine of a team

GK / CB x2 / CM x2 / Striker - 6 quality players on bloody good money - then use lower league players, academy players hungry to showcase themselves on relatively cheap contracts. A average player will remain average, but playing alongside quality players raises peoples games, and a hungry player looking to advance his career will improve instead of stagnating around mediocrity. We can then keep these players if we see fit, release if they do not improve, or hopefully sell on at a profit if they prove themselves....

Maybe by looking at ourselves as a club like that we will be able to succeed - though I can already hear the gnashing of teeth at the untried wingers, left backs etc making mistakes - but raw talent, coaching, playing alongside quality players would help shape them, and give them first team opportunities not available anywhere else - making us a sort of goto club for people with something to prove/showcasing themselves.

[Northampton Red]

Sounds good to me, even if it means knocking about in L1 to do so. We need a clear out.

[Aizoon]

When Johnson 'lost' the dressing room at half time at Plymouth, the 4 players involved should have been instantly dismissed. That would have sent a message out.

Well said, sir! Just ask yourself "what would Fergie have done?"

[Red-Robbo]

Well said, sir! Just ask yourself "what would Fergie have done?"

Fergie wouldn't have been hovering around the Championship relegation zone though, would he?

[Monkeh]

Fergie wouldn't have been hovering around the Championship relegation zone though, would he?

[Mr Popodopolous]

When Johnson 'lost' the dressing room at half time at Plymouth, the 4 players involved should have been instantly dismissed. That would have sent a message out.

We'll never know if those stories were true or not, but if they were I quite agree. Best manager statistically in some while or 4 players, at least some of whom are still probably here in the underperforming side- who to sack...?