Players Revert To Type - Managerial Record Comparisons

[Harry]

Sean O'Driscoll has rightly taken a great deal of credit for turning around our fortunes since he came in. However, it appears as though there is only so much a manager can achieve with a number of the players at his disposal.

The last few games seem to have seen the usual suspects reverting to type. They've raised their games for their new boss and now they're once again showing their true colours.

As said earlier, SOD has rightly been praised for the upturn in results. But let's have a look at his 13 games in charge so far. Won 5, Drawn 2, Lost 6. Total of 17 points.

Lets now look at Derek McInnes' first 13 games. Won 6, Drawn 3, Lost 4. Total of 21 points. It should also be noted that Del achieved 11 points away from home in this spell.

Now, I'm not here to big up either manager but instead to question the desire and motivation of the players. They seem perfectly capable of putting together a run of results when under the intense scrutiny of a new boss, but it doesn't take long for them to slip back into their old ways.

Interestingly, Del's first win came away at Barnsley with a starting line-up that included Fontaine, Nyatanga, Elliot, Kilkenny, Skuse and Adomah.

You'll note that 5 of those are still in the starting line-up at Derby, with Albert also featuring from the bench.

That's 6 of the current recognised first team who are a constant in this remarkable ability to be able to turn it on when they want.

I sincerely hope that SOD can get the best out of these players in the remaining 7 games, but sadly history will tell us that they've had their run and are about to slip back to being the average footballers that they are.

Good luck Sean. I sincerely hope you recognise the faults in these players and don't let them con you into believing they're better players than they are. I'm glad Sean himself said in his recent interview that some players train very well yet don't always translate that to the pitch. Hopefully he's seen through some of these clowns after the Derby debacle.

Whether we stay up or go down, I expect, nay demand, a large turnaround in the playing staff. A lot of us have had just about enough of a lot of these so called professionals.

[glynriley]

Sean O'Driscoll has rightly taken a great deal of credit for turning around our fortunes since he came in. However, it appears as though there is only so much a manager can achieve with a number of the players at his disposal.

The last few games seem to have seen the usual suspects reverting to type. They've raised their games for their new boss and now they're once again showing their true colours.

As said earlier, SOD has rightly been praised for the upturn in results. But let's have a look at his 13 games in charge so far. Won 5, Drawn 2, Lost 6. Total of 17 points.

Lets now look at Derek McInnes' first 13 games. Won 6, Drawn 3, Lost 4. Total of 21 points. It should also be noted that Del achieved 11 points away from home in this spell.

Now, I'm not here to big up either manager but instead to question the desire and motivation of the players. They seem perfectly capable of putting together a run of results when under the intense scrutiny of a new boss, but it doesn't take long for them to slip back into their old ways.

Interestingly, Del's first win came away at Barnsley with a starting line-up that included Fontaine, Nyatanga, Elliot, Kilkenny, Skuse and Adomah.

You'll note that 5 of those are still in the starting line-up at Derby, with Albert also featuring from the bench.

That's 6 of the current recognised first team who are a constant in this remarkable ability to be able to turn it on when they want.

I sincerely hope that SOD can get the best out of these players in the remaining 7 games, but sadly history will tell us that they've had their run and are about to slip back to being the average footballers that they are.

Good luck Sean. I sincerely hope you recognise the faults in these players and don't let them con you into believing they're better players than they are. I'm glad Sean himself said in his recent interview that some players train very well yet don't always translate that to the pitch. Hopefully he's seen through some of these clowns after the Derby debacle.

Whether we stay up or go down, I expect, nay demand, a large turnaround in the playing staff. A lot of us have had just about enough of a lot of these so called professionals.

Good shout H. I was arguing this very point with my old man last night. New manager arrives , performances improve for a bit then the cosy club returns in full on laid back mode.

My old man reckons they're all just shite , but then , he's been suffering City for nearly 60 years !!

[Rule The Waves]

The new manager effect is known as the "dead dog bounce."

Plenty of our 1st team have had ample opportunity to prove themselves and haven't, under various managers over the years. When we go down we need to use it as an opportunity for a clean slate.

[Aizoon]

Dead Cat Bounce, actually.

[Harry]

Interestingly I just looked at Millen's first 9 games in charge after GJ was sacked. 5 wins, 3 Draws, 1 Loss. 18 points in 9 games.

I picked a random game during that spell - away to Sheffield Weds when we won 1-0. 4 constants remain - Fontaine, Nyatanga, Elliot, Skuse.

Surprise surprise.

[TRL]

Interestingly I just looked at Millen's first 9 games in charge after GJ was sacked. 5 wins, 3 Draws, 1 Loss. 18 points in 9 games.

I picked a random game during that spell - away to Sheffield Weds when we won 1-0. 4 constants remain - Fontaine, Nyatanga, Elliot, Skuse.

Surprise surprise.

Out of interest, what are the common denominators when we are on a losing streak?

I am not trying to stick up for any players here by the way, just interested to know.

[Guest]

Interestingly I just looked at Millen's first 9 games in charge after GJ was sacked. 5 wins, 3 Draws, 1 Loss. 18 points in 9 games.

I picked a random game during that spell - away to Sheffield Weds when we won 1-0. 4 constants remain - Fontaine, Nyatanga, Elliot, Skuse.

Surprise surprise.

The problem for me has always been central midfield.

Both Skuse and Elliott can perform very well on occasions, but not often enough.

No manager has been able or willing to replace either or both.

[Harry]

Out of interest, what are the common denominators when we are on a losing streak?

I am not trying to stick up for any players here by the way, just interested to know.

As said earlier, 6 of those involved in the gutless defeat at Derby were also involved in Dels winning start.

So basically the same players I've noted earlier.

[TRL]

As said earlier, 6 of those involved in the gutless defeat at Derby were also involved in Dels winning start.

So basically the same players I've noted earlier.

No I am on about losing runs not one off games.

Be interesting to see who are the mainstays of failure. And see if we can pick out players which are in the team for defeats and those for failure.

Now looking at it you point out Nyatanga as being in the team for a lot of good runs... but of the top of my head, I don't think he plays that much, so surely that is making a case for him rather than against him.

Seeing as most of the team has changed, it's always going to be carey skuse tangs and Elliott that appear over a period of time.

For me the only one I can make any kind of excuse for is Elliott, who I believe has been saddled with so much injury, it shows when he is not fully fit due to the limitations to his game.

[RedRock]

I just hope that someone from the Club's management reads this post.

Thought it was going to be different under SoD, but sadly not.

Fed up with the same dross from the same old players. Hate to say this, but part of me is glad we are relegated so we can rid ourselves of the losers who proliferate in our squad.

At best most are inconsistent and/or injury prone, at worst, they're playing in a league way above their natural level/abilities and being paid a fortune for so doing. Our embarassing annual early round cup knocks-outs are a good indicator of where we are at with this set of players.

Fresh start please - Cunningham, Maloney, Kelly and Anderson to stay, the rest pack yer bags please. Apart from Carey and Stead, thanks for nothing

[WTFiGO!?!]

Only ones I'd keep would be:

Heston

Baldock

Stead

Kelly

James Wilson

Cunningham

Taylor

Moloney

Anderson

(Undecided on Davies)

plus the youngn's.

The rest can do one, this club is too soft.

[old_eastender]

The problem for me has always been central midfield.

Both Skuse and Elliott can perform very well on occasions, but not often enough.

No manager has been able or willing to replace either or both.

Indeed, our central midfield has been really poor for far too long, and part of that is the mistaken belief that Skuse is a part of the solution. He is not, one decent game in 10. Elliot despite some good cameos since SOD arrived is never going to really affect games either.

In general I'm really pleased we have SOD but I do wish he would have given some of the youngsters a chance to inject some energy and enthusiam into the side, Bobby Reid being the obvious candidate. Skuse, Elliot, Pearson (especially), Kilkenny none of them are good enough - even at League one level can't see them influencing and controlling games. We need CMs with some pace, one who can get stuck in and break up play and one who can pick out a FORWARD pass.

[WellRedPhil]

Only ones I'd keep would be:

Heston

Baldock

Stead

Kelly

James Wilson

Cunningham

Taylor

Moloney

Anderson

(Undecided on Davies)

plus the youngn's.

The rest can do one, this club is too soft.

I'm sorry but in what world is James Wilson worthy of staying but Fontaine not? People forget that Fontaine has been at this Club for many years, and for the majority of that time he has been a good performer. Yes he was piss poor in the first-half of the season but in fairness, who wasn't?! It was obvious his confidence was shattered and he should have been dropped rather than made captain! His improvement under SOD has been there to see and if we are in League 1 next season then he will without doubt be one of the best CB's in that league. Wilson on the other hand hasn't really shown any signs that he will become a good CB at this level and at 24 he isn't the 'youngster' many portray him to be. I'd take Nyatanga over him any day of the week and based on the number of professional appearances both have made it would appear I'm not alone in that view. Likewise unsure on Davies yet Baldock is in your list of people to stay? Odd, very odd.

As for Harry's point I think it's slightly simplistic to suggest that new players try for a new manager and then stop trying once they have settled in. This would suggest that as a team we could be a lot better if the players wanted us to be. Do people really believe that the likes of Marvin Elliot and Cole Skuse lack desire or effort? Sure at times they are not good enough but I do not think it is a case of effort with too many in our squad. I agree that in general a lot of the players we have haven't been good enough but it goes deeper than that. Poor transfer dealings, no long-term plan and a general lack of progression over the last few years have all led to us being where we are now. We've failed to grasp the idea of playing to our strengths or signing players that suit us and instead have spent big sums on the likes of Baldock who could well be a goalscorer at this level, but was never really going to exceed in this team. It's been coming and deep down are too many people surprised that we're where we are based on the last few years of events?

Part of me is actually looking forward to being in League 1 next season in a way, the thought of regularly winning football matches and actually enjoying football again fills me with excitement and it's something that hasn't been evident down the Gate for a while. The flip side of course is there's no guarantee we'll do well and we all know what a bastard that league can be to get out of! With the new transfer policy and more apparent dedication to a youth system that actually produces we appear to finally be getting to grips with some essential off-field issues. It's just a shame (but not a surprise) that it comes at a time when we're at our worst on the pitch.

[WTFiGO!?!]

I'm sorry but in what world is James Wilson worthy of staying but Fontaine not? People forget that Fontaine has been at this Club for many years, and for the majority of that time he has been a good performer. Yes he was piss poor in the first-half of the season but in fairness, who wasn't?! It was obvious his confidence was shattered and he should have been dropped rather than made captain! His improvement under SOD has been there to see and if we are in League 1 next season then he will without doubt be one of the best CB's in that league. Wilson on the other hand hasn't really shown any signs that he will become a good CB at this level and at 24 he isn't the 'youngster' many portray him to be. I'd take Nyatanga over him any day of the week and based on the number of professional appearances both have made it would appear I'm not alone in that view. Likewise unsure on Davies yet Baldock is in your list of people to stay? Odd, very odd.

Fontaine has been very much part of the dross that has been served up over the last 4 years, you are right.

The prove is in the pudding I am afraid so it is my opinion we should get rid.

Wilson was debatable as he hasn't had a settled run in the team so for me is not responsible for the inherent sub-culture of failure. Granted, I thought he was younger than 24.

Baldock and Davies I am undecided on but would probably keep.

This is all more complicated than we are making out, of course. It is highly hypothetical but my overall view is we need a mass dispanding of the squad akin to that of the Danny Wilson era due to their ultimate failure.

[And Its Smith]

Most of the players that people would keep are McInnes's signings. Interesting. Also how can you want to keep Wilson but be undecided on Davies? The latter is our best striker by some distance

[WTFiGO!?!]

Like I said, Wilson has hardly played so I'm unsure about him. I also thought he was a youngn', like Byran, but now know he is not.

I don't rate Davies as much as others seem too but all of this is opinion based anyway.

DMAC's recruitment was probably his best asset, he just couldn't seem to organise and motivate a team.

[bemmyredjeff]

Sean O'Driscoll has rightly taken a great deal of credit for turning around our fortunes since he came in. However, it appears as though there is only so much a manager can achieve with a number of the players at his disposal.

The last few games seem to have seen the usual suspects reverting to type. They've raised their games for their new boss and now they're once again showing their true colours.

As said earlier, SOD has rightly been praised for the upturn in results. But let's have a look at his 13 games in charge so far. Won 5, Drawn 2, Lost 6. Total of 17 points.

Lets now look at Derek McInnes' first 13 games. Won 6, Drawn 3, Lost 4. Total of 21 points. It should also be noted that Del achieved 11 points away from home in this spell.

Now, I'm not here to big up either manager but instead to question the desire and motivation of the players. They seem perfectly capable of putting together a run of results when under the intense scrutiny of a new boss, but it doesn't take long for them to slip back into their old ways.

Interestingly, Del's first win came away at Barnsley with a starting line-up that included Fontaine, Nyatanga, Elliot, Kilkenny, Skuse and Adomah.

You'll note that 5 of those are still in the starting line-up at Derby, with Albert also featuring from the bench.

That's 6 of the current recognised first team who are a constant in this remarkable ability to be able to turn it on when they want.

I sincerely hope that SOD can get the best out of these players in the remaining 7 games, but sadly history will tell us that they've had their run and are about to slip back to being the average footballers that they are.

Good luck Sean. I sincerely hope you recognise the faults in these players and don't let them con you into believing they're better players than they are. I'm glad Sean himself said in his recent interview that some players train very well yet don't always translate that to the pitch. Hopefully he's seen through some of these clowns after the Derby debacle.

Whether we stay up or go down, I expect, nay demand, a large turnaround in the playing staff. A lot of us have had just about enough of a lot of these so called professionals.

Have you got a dual personality, yesterday you were pleading with everyone to get behind the lads tomorrow now you're slating them , deservedly, big time.

Strange........

[bemmyredjeff]

Sorry Harry, should have checked first.

That was Harry Parfitt.

Apologies once again....

[Harry]

No I am on about losing runs not one off games.

Be interesting to see who are the mainstays of failure. And see if we can pick out players which are in the team for defeats and those for failure.

Now looking at it you point out Nyatanga as being in the team for a lot of good runs... but of the top of my head, I don't think he plays that much, so surely that is making a case for him rather than against him.

Seeing as most of the team has changed, it's always going to be carey skuse tangs and Elliott that appear over a period of time.

For me the only one I can make any kind of excuse for is Elliott, who I believe has been saddled with so much injury, it shows when he is not fully fit due to the limitations to his game.

Fair point TRL.

I don't think I've got time to run through all the line-ups through each period, but I will pick out some stats I've pulled together for this season :

Skuse's stats this season :

Won 5, Drawn 3, Lost 14.

City overall have Won 11, Drawn 6, Lost 22.

So, he's played in only 45% of our victories, 50% of our draws and 64% of our defeats (i.e when he's in he team, more often than not we lose).

Nyatanga has a record of Won 4, Drawn 3, Lost 7.

So his percentage compared to our overall record is 36% of our wins, 50% of our draws and 32% of our defeats.

So in actual fact, this season, we are slightly better off with Nyatanga playing!

Marv's record is Won 7, Drawn 4, Lost 12 (I'm only counting games he's had a chance to influence (i.e. not an 83rd minute sub).

So he plays in 64% of our wins, 67% of our draws and 55% of our defeats. A slightly better record than I expected I must confess.

Kilkenny's record is 3-3-8. So he plays in 27% of our wins, 50% of our draws and 36% of our defeats.

So again, more often than not, we lose with Killa in the team.

Seems to me from these stats that our best midfield partnership right now is Kelly & Elliot, but for some reason the likes of Skuse & Kilkenny convince the manager to play them.

[Harry]

Sorry Harry, should have checked first.

That was Harry Parfitt.

Apologies once again....

I was about to say!!

No worries Jeff. Too many Harry's around these days! I was the original, haha!

[Harry]

As for Harry's point I think it's slightly simplistic to suggest that new players try for a new manager and then stop trying once they have settled in. This would suggest that as a team we could be a lot better if the players wanted us to be. Do people really believe that the likes of Marvin Elliot and Cole Skuse lack desire or effort? Sure at times they are not good enough but I do not think it is a case of effort with too many in our squad. I agree that in general a lot of the players we have haven't been good enough but it goes deeper than that.

For me it's more that I don't think they are consistently good enough for this level of football. A new boss comes in and they put 110% effort in for a period of time and play above their ability, but eventually they will revert to type, and be the inconsistent footballers that they are at this level.

Quite simply, they're not good enough, but somehow manage to convince manager after manager that they are.

[biggythecity]

Sean O'Driscoll has rightly taken a great deal of credit for turning around our fortunes since he came in. However, it appears as though there is only so much a manager can achieve with a number of the players at his disposal.

The last few games seem to have seen the usual suspects reverting to type. They've raised their games for their new boss and now they're once again showing their true colours.

As said earlier, SOD has rightly been praised for the upturn in results. But let's have a look at his 13 games in charge so far. Won 5, Drawn 2, Lost 6. Total of 17 points.

Lets now look at Derek McInnes' first 13 games. Won 6, Drawn 3, Lost 4. Total of 21 points. It should also be noted that Del achieved 11 points away from home in this spell.

Now, I'm not here to big up either manager but instead to question the desire and motivation of the players. They seem perfectly capable of putting together a run of results when under the intense scrutiny of a new boss, but it doesn't take long for them to slip back into their old ways.

Interestingly, Del's first win came away at Barnsley with a starting line-up that included Fontaine, Nyatanga, Elliot, Kilkenny, Skuse and Adomah.

You'll note that 5 of those are still in the starting line-up at Derby, with Albert also featuring from the bench.

That's 6 of the current recognised first team who are a constant in this remarkable ability to be able to turn it on when they want.

I sincerely hope that SOD can get the best out of these players in the remaining 7 games, but sadly history will tell us that they've had their run and are about to slip back to being the average footballers that they are.

Good luck Sean. I sincerely hope you recognise the faults in these players and don't let them con you into believing they're better players than they are. I'm glad Sean himself said in his recent interview that some players train very well yet don't always translate that to the pitch. Hopefully he's seen through some of these clowns after the Derby debacle.

Whether we stay up or go down, I expect, nay demand, a large turnaround in the playing staff. A lot of us have had just about enough of a lot of these so called professionals.

Couldnt agree more with this have been saying the same on here for ages and getting abused for blaming the players and not JUST the manager,hope he performs the miracle and keeps us up but whatever div were in next year we need to change the core of experienced players in this squad,they have let us down too often

[bcfctim]

Have you got a dual personality, yesterday you were pleading with everyone to get behind the lads tomorrow now you're slating them , deservedly, big time.

Strange........

Why can't you do both?

I don't think half our players are good enough and there needs to be a big clearout in the summer but that's not going to stop me getting behind the team in full force tomorrow.

[Guest]

DMAC's recruitment was probably his best asset, he just couldn't seem to organise and motivate a team.

Wrong. He could motivate enough to be a skipper in his playing days, and he could organise a squad like S J's to punch above their weight. I think he'll have a good managerial career, and hope we see him south of the border again so he at least has an opportunity to show doubters perhaps it was the players on the field at fault and he needed another year for contracts to wind down to clear out. Before anyone starts I acknowledge he baffled at times, but show me a manager who doesn't and I would also refer you to SOD's team v Derby and his admission that he had long coveted Kilkenny (worrying!).

I was lambasted on here and said I thought sacking Del was pointless, that the players would soon revert to type and rather his severance went to getting rid of some of the absolute COLIN's in our squad. Finally we collectively seem to have lost patience with the players

[Harry]

Why can't you do both?

I don't think half our players are good enough and there needs to be a big clearout in the summer but that's not going to stop me getting behind the team in full force tomorrow.

Hey Tim. I think Jeff got the wrong Harry (as he later acknowledged), however, we can do both. I for one will be making as much noise as I can tomorrow, as usual, but I remain unconvinced of the ability of some of our players at this level.

Until the end of the season I will back them vocally as much as I can. If we end up relegated, equally they will know about it!

[Dorset_Cider]

Have you got a dual personality, yesterday you were pleading with everyone to get behind the lads tomorrow now you're slating them , deservedly, big time.

Strange........

I do not find that strange, we all want to stay up, we all maybe repressing our true feelings big time, but given the right post may let them slip out?

Do any of us really want to be negative about BCFC, no not really........ thing is.................

[Timbo7]

Sean O'Driscoll has rightly taken a great deal of credit for turning around our fortunes since he came in. However, it appears as though there is only so much a manager can achieve with a number of the players at his disposal.

The last few games seem to have seen the usual suspects reverting to type. They've raised their games for their new boss and now they're once again showing their true colours.

As said earlier, SOD has rightly been praised for the upturn in results. But let's have a look at his 13 games in charge so far. Won 5, Drawn 2, Lost 6. Total of 17 points.

Lets now look at Derek McInnes' first 13 games. Won 6, Drawn 3, Lost 4. Total of 21 points. It should also be noted that Del achieved 11 points away from home in this spell.

Now, I'm not here to big up either manager but instead to question the desire and motivation of the players. They seem perfectly capable of putting together a run of results when under the intense scrutiny of a new boss, but it doesn't take long for them to slip back into their old ways.

Interestingly, Del's first win came away at Barnsley with a starting line-up that included Fontaine, Nyatanga, Elliot, Kilkenny, Skuse and Adomah.

You'll note that 5 of those are still in the starting line-up at Derby, with Albert also featuring from the bench.

That's 6 of the current recognised first team who are a constant in this remarkable ability to be able to turn it on when they want.

I sincerely hope that SOD can get the best out of these players in the remaining 7 games, but sadly history will tell us that they've had their run and are about to slip back to being the average footballers that they are.

Good luck Sean. I sincerely hope you recognise the faults in these players and don't let them con you into believing they're better players than they are. I'm glad Sean himself said in his recent interview that some players train very well yet don't always translate that to the pitch. Hopefully he's seen through some of these clowns after the Derby debacle.

Whether we stay up or go down, I expect, nay demand, a large turnaround in the playing staff. A lot of us have had just about enough of a lot of these so called professionals.

So you are arguing that because the same players featured in improved performances following DMcI's appointment as have recently featured in improved performances following SO'D's appointment, they are to blame for the underlying failures?

Is it not the case that performances briefly improve after managerial change at most clubs regardless of who is playing AND the players that play most frequently and have been here the longest are almost inevitably going to feature in such upturns?

Taking this into account there is simply no science in your attempt at statistical analysis and hence nothing whatsoever is revealed by it.

[sunningdalered]

I'm not sure about the whole 'revert to type' thing - the statistics are persuasive, but there are so many other factors that could be at play. I'm not an apologist for the players - tomorrow will be the first time i've seen them in action since brighton, when i thought they actually did ok (although, in retrospect, it now feels like 2 points tossed), and they may well have dropped their collective performance levels since.

I wonder whether SO'Ds confidence-building approach, versus a blood and sweat '6-pointer' type outlook, is really only an effective longer-term strategy, and just not suited to a relegation scrap? It seems to lean so much towards being harder to beat, rather than winning games at all costs, that draws or losses, rather than wins, would be the more likely outcome.

[havanatopia]

Who is this Heston bloke? that gun toting washed up actor from Texas or the little shortie arse fan guy who likes to pluck a duck down in Bray?

[TRL]

Fair point TRL.

I don't think I've got time to run through all the line-ups through each period, but I will pick out some stats I've pulled together for this season :

Skuse's stats this season :

Won 5, Drawn 3, Lost 14.

City overall have Won 11, Drawn 6, Lost 22.

So, he's played in only 45% of our victories, 50% of our draws and 64% of our defeats (i.e when he's in he team, more often than not we lose).

Nyatanga has a record of Won 4, Drawn 3, Lost 7.

So his percentage compared to our overall record is 36% of our wins, 50% of our draws and 32% of our defeats.

So in actual fact, this season, we are slightly better off with Nyatanga playing!

Marv's record is Won 7, Drawn 4, Lost 12 (I'm only counting games he's had a chance to influence (i.e. not an 83rd minute sub).

So he plays in 64% of our wins, 67% of our draws and 55% of our defeats. A slightly better record than I expected I must confess.

Kilkenny's record is 3-3-8. So he plays in 27% of our wins, 50% of our draws and 36% of our defeats.

So again, more often than not, we lose with Killa in the team.

Seems to me from these stats that our best midfield partnership right now is Kelly & Elliot, but for some reason the likes of Skuse & Kilkenny convince the manager to play them.

Cheers harry, some useful stats there. If I get a bit of time, I may have a look at the stats over a 4 year period, depends how bored I am