Ashton Vale: The End?

[The Exiled Robin]

With the announcement that a deal has been struck on the future of Ashton Vale, it would seem that the dream is over for Steve Lansdown.

I look at what this means for City, Lansdown and also take a closer look at Dr. Liam Fox MP's role in the position we now find ourselves in, with some help from my old man!

http://exiledrobin.blogspot.co.uk/2013/09/ashton-vale-beginning-of-end.html

I'm sure many of you ar now at the stage where you don't really care and just want this sorted, but there's an interesting angle to this on Dr.Fox that is worth reading.

As ever, thanks for reading, and all feedback is as welcome as ever

[timothy bird]

Politician in dishonest hypocrite, shock!

[tiz]

As fantasic as ever. And I share your fears. Sadly, though not a true sentiment, Liam Fox does not represent me either.

Please never tire of your blogs

[hippy273]

Politicians like these are keeping Bristol in the dark ages, IMO i don't think any Arena/Stadium will be built in Bristol for many years to come. George Ferguson promised an Arena be built during his time in office and funding got set back earlier this year. My money is on 20 years at least.

[BrizzleRed]

Excellent blog as usual.

I really do fear how long Steve Lansdown is going to be throwing is fortune into a city that seems hell bent on resisting every off of investment he makes. We are just slipping further and further behind cities we should be at least equal to. Through the combination of numerous self interested nimby pressure groups, largely weak local politicians and now the red trousered clown, I really fear for future of this potentially great but largely unfulfilled city of ours.

So sad and so avoidable.

[ChippenhamRed]

As a lover of sport I consider it my misfortune to have been born in Bristol. It is a city with no appetite for sport and the Ashton Vale debacle only confirms it.

I can't think of another city like it.

[Son of Fred]

Politicians like these are keeping Bristol in the dark ages, IMO i don't think any Arena/Stadium will be built in Bristol for many years to come. George Ferguson promised an Arena be built during his time in office and funding got set back earlier this year. My money is on 20 years at least.

as stated by Mr Hargreaves in a damning article in the Post a couple of years ago-the in-fighting and pure ignorance of OUR elected officials have placed this fair City in a headlock...

[ricardob59]

Excellent read as ever..

As an Exiled Wurzel, I find this paragraph very true...

But what no-one can argue with is that for the city as a whole, looking at the bigger picture, a trick has been sorely missed. The opportunity to develop an edge of town area with commercial facilities and new transport links has been wasted. The chance to finally have a venue for events worth it's name gone for now, possibly forever. Whereas the likes of Cardiff, Nottingham, Sheffield, Leeds and Liverpool continue to grow their appeal with cultural development and attractions for young, affluent people, Bristol and the West has turned down a golden opportunity to spend money that isn't even the tax-payers' contribution.

Love my home City.. A beautiful place, but positive development so lacks..

[AshtonGreat]

Excellent read as ever..

As an Exiled Wurzel, I find this paragraph very true...

But what no-one can argue with is that for the city as a whole, looking at the bigger picture, a trick has been sorely missed. The opportunity to develop an edge of town area with commercial facilities and new transport links has been wasted. The chance to finally have a venue for events worth it's name gone for now, possibly forever. Whereas the likes of Cardiff, Nottingham, Sheffield, Leeds and Liverpool continue to grow their appeal with cultural development and attractions for young, affluent people, Bristol and the West has turned down a golden opportunity to spend money that isn't even the tax-payers' contribution.

Love my home City.. A beautiful place, but positive development so lacks..

Sadly true. Although Bristol is still a more attractive option than the above mentioned cities simply because it's a damn sight prettier

[downendcity]

Throughout this debacle, I've wondered how things might have turned out had the City's leaders been in power during Brunel's time.

If they had, would the GWR line from London have ended at Bath, because we wouldn't want that steam belching, noisy and downright dangerous new fangled railway coming anywhere near our beloved city would we?

Similarly, we would now enjoy an unspoiled and uninterrupted view from Ashton Gate looking down the gorge towards Avonmouth, because we wouldn't want a monstrosity of a bridge built there, creating an eyesore that would forever blight the glorious view down the gorge - it wouldn't be a major inconvenience, would it, for Clifton residents to travel down to Cumberland Basin in order to cross the river?

[Timbo7]

It seems to me that any "deal" between the TVG applicant and the AV landowner must be limited to:

"if the landowner abandons plans to develop the AV stadium the TVG applicant agrees to amend its application to only part of the site allowing the other part (the landfill) to be developed subject to a new planning consent"

To avoid doubt:

• the TVG applicant cannot assist Bristol City in obtaining planning consent for the redevelopment of Ashton Gate;
• the planning authority cannot take the existing or amended TVG application into account in considering proposals for Ashton Gate; and
• the planning authority must consider any new application for development of the landfill site for residential on its merits without regard to the existing consent for a stadium.

Hence,if there is any truth in the story (which I would be surprised if there is not) it is simply a confirmation that if consent is given for the AG redevelopment then the AV plan will be abandoned. Any attempt to do a deal with the TVG applicant is therefore simply an attempt by the landowner (Lansdown and not Bristol City) to salvage something from the AV fiasco without the further delay, expense and risk of further inquiry, judicial review and appeal.

It should be noted that an application to develop new housing on the landfill site is unlikely to get an easy ride - it remains contrary to the local development plan and seemingly lacking in the special considerations which the planning authority would require to approve.

In any event the development of housing on the landfill site cannot and will not (as some have suggested) enable the landowner to realise profits of the scale necessary to fund the AG redevelopment and/or refund the £50M debt owed by Bristol City to its majority shareholder. Furthermore, Bristol City would have no claim to any profit which might arise from such a development.

It is worth noting that owing to the current financial climate, housing developers are sat on undeveloped landbanks all over the country awaiting a more profitable time to build - there is no reason why SW Bristol should be different.

[wayne allisons tongues]

Live in Manchester and when you look at old trafford and city of Manchester stadium, Manchester arena, aquatic centre, velodrome, athletics track etc. for starters.

Makes you wonder how the hell they got it all built, I know commonwealth games were held here but imagine Bristol trying to host the commonwealth games it wouldn't even get past the planning stage.

I love Bristol and love coming back visiting family, but the facilities in Bristol are shocking. People who don't live here and visit say to me isn't bristol lovely but why no modern facilities for people to use its like Bristol wants to remain a city but without the facilities. Just want to remain like a village but bigger.

If that's the view of people who don't live here no wonder Bristol is becoming a backwater and so far behing other cities. Someone in power needs to have some balls and drag Bristol out of being a quaint little city, into somewhere that is quaint but actually has modern facilities for people.

If Bristol built the facilities they would get the money back from visiting numbers, but people on the council are to shortsighted. They can only think of saving there seats or helping there mates build apartments on the waterfront.

[Timbo7]

It is interesting to see (again) that supporters are concerned that Bristol City will be held back by a stadium of only 26,500 capacity.

I have said before that I do not believe there was ever a sound business case for the Ashton Vale development and I say now that I do not believe there is a sound business case for the proposed redevelopment of Ashton Gate. I suspect that this is a key reason (alongside all the hot air about planners, mayors and NIMBYs) why we have seen no tangible investment in either over the last decade and quite possibly shall see none in the next.

Until and unless Bristol City can show on the park that there is some potential for a brighter future (compared with the last century of underachievement) there seems little point in pursuing any of these dreams further.

It might also be worth noting that another 10,000 seats could yield only £5M to £7M per year in ticket revenue (even if the demand was there) - this would go only half way to extinguishing the annual losses posted over the past four seasons and is quite frankly irrelevant when compared with the astronomic TV revenues available in the Premier League. Football finance has reached a stage where stadium capacity is actually only incidental to the club's income if a sustainable presence in the Premier League can be achieved.

[Bert's City]

I also fear the day when lansdown walks away having had enough, Bristol are so short sighted car parking zones, closing roads to cars millions being spent on cycle networks, Bristol closed for business.

[havanatopia]

Sorry if i missed a trick here but BCC and NSC have given full planning permission for the stadium so why are 'we' slating town planners on this occasion?

This surely is about a few NIMBY's holding a city to ransom and using laws drawn up in our capital.

The lack of facilities in Bristol is perhaps overall a poor indictment of previous councillors but on this development I think they have largely been right behind it proof being the planning approval.

There comes a point when the land owner has to move on for the 'relative' good of our football club; after all we cannot remain in what is, we all know, a rather dilapidated if quaint stadium as it stands. So, developing the stadium we currently have is, it would appear, the only feasible option now.

One point that strikes me though is that a self declared aim of Steve Lansdown was to have a sustainable capacity for our Premier League ambition. That capacity is 30,000. After a re-developed AG we will have 27,000. Perhaps that means hiking prices marginally to compensate or to have another plan to eventually, somehow, increase capacity again by, perhaps. buying the homes that back on to the Atyeo.

After all said and done though it is indeed a sad day in that we see the relinquishing of a dream to move to a far larger site with space to grow beyond 30,000 and to build other revenue makers around it and all because of a few people. The laws are going to change to make that harder in the future alas not in time for us.

[BrizzleRed]

So why are Liverpool looking to develop Anfield if revenues are so insignificant ? Why did Arsenal move from Highbury ? I do agree about our capacity not being remotely important with our current and recent past performances on the field, personally I think AG is a totally inadequate facility , in an area that is totally unsuited to having matchday traffic and fans. AV is not worth discussing as it has been done to death, but is it really true we cannot find anywhere to locate a state of the at stadium in Bristol ? Surely Filton, Portishead, Avonmouth, etc. where there are good access links.

Was right with you until you mentioned Filton, Portishead and to a lesser extent, Avonmouth.

The most important part of a ground is being located in its traditional catchment area and Filton would actually put us right on the doorstep of the gas and leave the City of Bristol without a football club within the city boundaries. Portishead really makes no sense at all and while there would probably be land available at Avonmouth, that's a hell of a way for fans from City's traditional home to have to travel for matches.

AG is a poor second best compared to AV, but imho is still a far better option than the three examples you listed there.

[The Exiled Robin]

The capacity thing isn't 'ideal' but as has often been commented, how often do we need more than 25,000 currently?

One of the benefits of a new stadium, coupled with success, has been bigger crowds (Brighton, Reading, Stoke, Sunderland, Cardiff, Swansea to name just some), and the feeling is that their 'glory' crowds have been even bigger than usual with a brand-new, purpose built, family friendly stadium to attend. Certainly from a hospitality point of view, where little luxuries can be added without compromise.

The attraction of having accommodation at the stadium & direct transport links would also have boosted the casual crowd. If you're sitting around as a student on Gloucester Road on a Saturday lunchtime, can you really be arsed to walk half an hour from the centre, or get a train to Parson St & still have a 20min walk? No, you'll probably go to the bookies, watch Jeff & his crew in a pub & concentrate on the Premier League. Direct links fr centre, with purpose built large pubs, modern bookie stations, decent food vendors....different story.

How many times, each week, each season does this sort of decision get made? How many times do we lose a potential future season ticket holder?

I don't know, but picture the above & you can be sure it happens, sometimes at least

[Jon atyeo is my dad]

Other than repeating what many have said keep the blogs coming always an enjoyable read

[Miah Dennehy]

If I was a City fan I'd be secretly pleased.

I know it's not the fashionable view, and that everyone believes you have to have a shiny new stadium with corporate facilities for 'increased revenue streams' blah blah blah, but I'd rather watch football in a proper stadium , where the design had gradually changed with the rebuilding of various stands and had a bit of history and tradition behind it rather than some souless bowl.

[downendcity]

If I was a City fan I'd be secretly pleased.

I know it's not the fashionable view, and that everyone believes you have to have a shiny new stadium with corporate facilities for 'increased revenue streams' blah blah blah, but I'd rather watch football in a proper stadium , where the design had gradually changed with the rebuilding of various stands and had a bit of history and tradition behind it rather than some souless bowl.

It's all very well saying that, but that harsh reality is that football has become big business and money has a massive impact on a club's ability to get the top.

The advent of ffp renders a wealthy owner almost impotent, as far as ploughing his wealth into a club is concerned. Steve Lansdown recognised this, and that the club therefore did need new and increased revenue streams. I think I am right in saying that Ashton Gate was the only championship ground without executive boxes. Last season someone posted a chart showing championship clubs sources of revenue. What was noticeable was that our non gate receipt income was among the lowest in the championship and that clubs with shiny new stadiums were at the top end.

FFP does allow an owner to invest in stadium facilities, so Lansdown has worked out that he can inject his money into a new stadium ( either AV or a revamped Ashton Gate) and the improved facilities, - executive boxes and facilities that can generate income on non-match days- will give the club increased income that he is no longer allowed to provide.

Yes, increased capacity will give more income, but only if you fill it, which in league 1 is less than likely, so more seats alone is not the answer. If AV is dead in the water, then improving Ashton Gate is better than doing nothing, but while it will improve revenue by providing executive boxes for the first time, it will not give the club the other facilities for generating non match day income.

Fans steeped in tradition may prefer us to stay in our spiritual home, and some may even have preferred AG to stay as it is. If we want our club to grow and be competitive at the highest level we can, then it has to be competitive financially. If this means a new ground with facilities that give us the financial means to afford better quality players, then that is the way it will have to be, unless we want to look forward to night's like this week twice a season on a regular basis!.

[Tales From The Front]

Good article which sums up the latest in wasted opportunities for Bristol and in particular South Bristol. Although the perpetrators of this impasse are residents manipulated by external agencies. I can't help but think that elements within the City Council and particularly the local BBC have sought to aid and abet the elongated process. Although some fans choose to remove BCC from blame, at every level of planning for Ashton Vale or the redevelopment of Ashton Gate went to appeal. I should know it as it looks as though I've wasted 3 hours of my life at the appeal for the "sainsbury" application!

There were to many leaks, suspicion of off-record briefings, out of context news stories by the beeb, even the incorrect submission of boundaries in the planning application. All to frequent to be conveniently passed off as unfortunate or coincidence.

Yet again political ideology wins the day in the City of Bristol, instead of common science and progress. This is a tragedy and has far reaching implications for the South Bristol economy. Not least the football club which as you state may be seen to be more trouble then worth to the major shareholder.

Was Wembley 2008 the high water mark? I certainly hope not. I sincerely hope my pessimism is unfounded and I will be only to happy to say I'm wrong.

[screech]

It's all very well saying that, but that harsh reality is that football has become big business and money has a massive impact on a club's ability to get the top.

The advent of ffp renders a wealthy owner almost impotent, as far as ploughing his wealth into a club is concerned. Steve Lansdown recognised this, and that the club therefore did need new and increased revenue streams. I think I am right in saying that Ashton Gate was the only championship ground without executive boxes. Last season someone posted a chart showing championship clubs sources of revenue. What was noticeable was that our non gate receipt income was among the lowest in the championship and that clubs with shiny new stadiums were at the top end.

FFP does allow an owner to invest in stadium facilities, so Lansdown has worked out that he can inject his money into a new stadium ( either AV or a revamped Ashton Gate) and the improved facilities, - executive boxes and facilities that can generate income on non-match days- will give the club increased income that he is no longer allowed to provide.

Yes, increased capacity will give more income, but only if you fill it, which in league 1 is less than likely, so more seats alone is not the answer. If AV is dead in the water, then improving Ashton Gate is better than doing nothing, but while it will improve revenue by providing executive boxes for the first time, it will not give the club the other facilities for generating non match day income.

Fans steeped in tradition may prefer us to stay in our spiritual home, and some may even have preferred AG to stay as it is. If we want our club to grow and be competitive at the highest level we can, then it has to be competitive financially. If this means a new ground with facilities that give us the financial means to afford better quality players, then that is the way it will have to be, unless we want to look forward to night's like this week twice a season on a regular basis!.

not all true though is it. With the best will in the world we wont be competitive for very long if we did make the premier league. Blackpool made it, swansea, palace, hull, qpr, brum, stoke, fulham all have similar sized fanbase to us with little corporate facilities at their grounds. Re vamped ashton gate will be plenty for a championship side with an once in a generation look at premier league survival.

[BrizzleRed]

Good article which sums up the latest in wasted opportunities for Bristol and in particular South Bristol. Although the perpetrators of this impasse are residents manipulated by external agencies. I can't help but think that elements within the City Council and particularly the local BBC have sought to aid and abet the elongated process. Although some fans choose to remove BCC from blame, at every level of planning for Ashton Vale or the redevelopment of Ashton Gate went to appeal. I should know it as it looks as though I've wasted 3 hours of my life at the appeal for the "sainsbury" application!

There were to many leaks, suspicion of off-record briefings, out of context news stories by the beeb, even the incorrect submission of boundaries in the planning application. All to frequent to be conveniently passed off as unfortunate or coincidence.

Yet again political ideology wins the day in the City of Bristol, instead of common science and progress. This is a tragedy and has far reaching implications for the South Bristol economy. Not least the football club which as you state may be seen to be more trouble then worth to the major shareholder.

Was Wembley 2008 the high water mark? I certainly hope not. I sincerely hope my pessimism is unfounded and I will be only to happy to say I'm wrong.

You've made some very good points there.

It just seems like for any progress to ever be made in this city, it needs to be done 'in spite of the establishement' rather than 'because of it'. Everything is a battle and as was said by someone at the Sainsbury's planning meeting, there's alway "someone throwing rocks on the tracks".

It appears that other cities around the country are looking to find reasons why developments SHOULD go through, while in Bristol, there always seems to be an emphasis on deciding why it SHOULDN"T.

I shudder to think how many businesses have been put off from coming to Bristol, as if they've done any research, they'll be well aware that they'll have an almighty battle to get any development through. As someone has mentioned elsewhere, just imagine if the great Isambard Brunel came to Bristol now and proposed slicing through the city with a new fangled railway, or throwing a great stone and steel bridge across the Avon Gorge! You can just bet he'd have been so bogged down by battles with nimbys and planning that he'd have thrown in the towel, as even getting the basic done in this city seems almost impossible, let alone something ground-breaking.

Where has Bristol gone wrong? We were so adventurous a century or so back, but now we can't seem to have just stagnated and can't get much done at all. Such a shame and such a waste.

[Tales From The Front]

You've made some very good points there.

It just seems like for any progress to ever be made in this city, it needs to be done 'in spite of the establishement' rather than 'because of it'. Everything is a battle and as was said by someone at the Sainsbury's planning meeting, there's alway "someone throwing rocks on the tracks".

It appears that other cities around the country are looking to find reasons why developments SHOULD go through, while in Bristol, there always seems to be an emphasis on deciding why it SHOULDN"T.

I shudder to think how many businesses have been put off from coming to Bristol, as if they've done any research, they'll be well aware that they'll have an almighty battle to get any development through. As someone has mentioned elsewhere, just imagine if the great Isambard Brunel came to Bristol now and proposed slicing through the city with a new fangled railway, or throwing a great stone and steel bridge across the Avon Gorge! You can just bet he'd have been so bogged down by battles with nimbys and planning that he'd have thrown in the towel, as even getting the basic done in this city seems almost impossible, let alone something ground-breaking.

Where has Bristol gone wrong? We were so adventurous a century or so back, but now we can't seem to have just stagnated and can't get much done at all. Such a shame and such a waste.

Brunel was an entrepreneur working for private enterprise. His achievements have stood the test of time and make the current plight of a self made man looking to invest in the City of Bristol look all the more ridiculous. Bristol is all the better for Brunel's vision and the football club and south Bristol would have been the better for the Landsdown vision. What has changed, well Bristol was built on the free enterprise of Merchants some of which was shameful and not to the benefit of sections of society as we know, but generally did a lot of good as well improved infrastructure, railways, bridges etc. Bristol post war moved away from private enterprise, very public sector orientated and is now in my opinion controlled by a middle class liberal mayor (every NIMBY's dream). Sadly it's (again my view) the working classes that ultimately suffer from the self interest, upset no one approach that results in the inertia you see.

I do apologise for bringing politics on to a football forum but this issue has been beset by political ideology and individualism and not the wider public interest from day one. I stress this is just my opinion and not representative of City fans or the club.

[BrizzleRed]

Brunel was an entrepreneur working for private enterprise. His achievements have stood the test of time and make the current plight of a self made man looking to invest in the City of Bristol look all the more ridiculous. Bristol is all the better for Brunel's vision and the football club and south Bristol would have been the better for the Landsdown vision. What has changed, well Bristol was built on the free enterprise of Merchants some of which was shameful and not to the benefit of sections of society as we know, but generally did a lot of good as well improved infrastructure, railways, bridges etc. Bristol post war moved away from private enterprise, very public sector orientated and is now in my opinion controlled by a middle class liberal mayor (every NIMBY's dream). Sadly it's (again my view) the working classes that ultimately suffer from the self interest, upset no one approach that results in the inertia you see.

I do apologise for bringing politics on to a football forum but this issue has been beset by political ideology and individualism and not the wider public interest from day one. I stress this is just my opinion and not representative of City fans or the club.

No need for apologise for raising politics on a football forum, as this seems very relevant.

Politics probably explain how several of the recent Bristol developments have been allowed, ie, Harbourside, Temple Quay and Cabot Circus. Granted the latter is used by all, but it is very beneficial to big business and bringing trade into Bristol. Harbourside is predominantly exclusive, expensive housing and offices, while Temple Quay mainly serves big business, so they are all of most benefit to the wealthy individuals or business. There must have been protests when some of these developments were proposed, especially from people living on Cumberland Rd, when they were faced with large blocks of flats being built and completely obliterating their view of the docks. Funnily enough that didn't stop the development happening!

It seems like protesters are only selectively listened to and is dependent on the type of development. It's very easy to think that the building of a new football stadium, which is still largely viewed as a working class sport, has been treated very differently to offices and exclusive housing.

It looks like the gas are starting to come up against the same problems as us, as it appears a judicial review could be on the cards for the UWE development. I does make you wonder if there would have been quite the same problems and delays on these sites if exclusive housing, offices, science parks, etc had been proposed.

[Manon]

Sorry can't agree with that.

First, I take it you mean anchor/hotwells rd re the harbourside?

I'm sure if there were complaints to be made,.they would have been made. If there was was sufficient ground s for tvg/jr, they would have been made just the same, and the council have been bound to following the course of the legal system.

The fact is, the developments you mention were either brown field sites, prime development ground, or as was the case with CC, they ripped up ande re routed the highway to build it.

[Aizoon]

No need for apologise for raising politics on a football forum, as this seems very relevant.

Politics probably explain how several of the recent Bristol developments have been allowed, ie, Harbourside, Temple Quay and Cabot Circus. Granted the latter is used by all, but it is very beneficial to big business and bringing trade into Bristol. Harbourside is predominantly exclusive, expensive housing and offices, while Temple Quay mainly serves big business, so they are all of most benefit to the wealthy individuals or business. There must have been protests when some of these developments were proposed, especially from people living on Cumberland Rd, when they were faced with large blocks of flats being built and completely obliterating their view of the docks. Funnily enough that didn't stop the development happening!

It seems like protesters are only selectively listened to and is dependent on the type of development. It's very easy to think that the building of a new football stadium, which is still largely viewed as a working class sport, has been treated very differently to offices and exclusive housing.

It looks like the gas are starting to come up against the same problems as us, as it appears a judicial review could be on the cards for the UWE development. I does make you wonder if there would have been quite the same problems and delays on these sites if exclusive housing, offices, science parks, etc had been proposed.

I think it's perfectly clear that the NIMBYs saw the inspector as "one of us" and that the feeling was mutual. To people like that, football supporters (and, indeed, all working class men) are seen as Men from Mars, to be feared, oppressed and patronised as necessary.

[glynriley]

I think it's perfectly clear that the NIMBYs saw the inspector as "one of us" and that the feeling was mutual. To people like that, football supporters (and, indeed, all working class men) are seen as Men from Mars, to be feared, oppressed and patronised as necessary.

So Redeye's a nimby then?

[Super]

Surely the club needs to put a statement out?

[BrizzleRed]

I think it's perfectly clear that the NIMBYs saw the inspector as "one of us" and that the feeling was mutual. To people like that, football supporters (and, indeed, all working class men) are seen as Men from Mars, to be feared, oppressed and patronised as necessary.

True ....... which is why normal standards of policing and your rights as a human being go out of the window when you attend a football match!