Ashton Vale: The End?

[Aizoon]

So Redeye's a nimby then?

Almost certainly.

[ciderup]

Great article as usual exile.

I won't get in to wether X is a Y and such but I can't help feeling this decision is missing the bigger picture.

Yes, 26500 seems a huge capacity to scoff at in our present position but I, and many more, slightly long in the tooth reds, have been at the Gate with a supposed 38000 in the ground and loads locked out (I gather well over 40000 were actually in the stadium).

The latent support is there to make a mockery of a 26500 capacity IMHO even though it seems a world away. The capacity of the redeveloped AG is NOT enough to support a Premier league BCFC IF we ever get there and the Vale would have offered the opportunity to fulfil all the aspirations that this club COULD be.

While I applaud the new Gate, it isn't the Vale and does NOT offer the potential the Vale could have offered the future BCFC although it covers the short term more than adequately.

Short termism? Brilliant.

Long termism? An opportunity seems to have been missed.

Disappointed, BS30.

[nebristolred]

If I was a City fan I'd be secretly pleased.

I know it's not the fashionable view, and that everyone believes you have to have a shiny new stadium with corporate facilities for 'increased revenue streams' blah blah blah, but I'd rather watch football in a proper stadium , where the design had gradually changed with the rebuilding of various stands and had a bit of history and tradition behind it rather than some souless bowl.

I'm with you, but I'm completely against the AG rebuild. Why? Because the designs do not retain any of the character of Ashton Gate, whatsoever. The likes of Villa Park, Carrow Road, etc are "acceptable" modernisations, rebuilds which still retain the character of the ground and the atmosphere of the place. Ashton Gate in the future would just be another plastic variation, minus one end. Ashton Vale ultimately would be similar, but looks a million times better than the AG rebuild, and offers us much better prospects as a facility.

[ciderup]

I can't help looking at the AG vid on you tube and feel the Atyeo end of the massive Williams looks unfinished.

IMHO, the joint between Williams / Atyeo looks crap!

[Bat Fastard]

Great article as usual exile.

I won't get in to wether X is a Y and such but I can't help feeling this decision is missing the bigger picture.

Yes, 26500 seems a huge capacity to scoff at in our present position but I, and many more, slightly long in the tooth reds, have been at the Gate with a supposed 38000 in the ground and loads locked out (I gather well over 40000 were actually in the stadium).

The latent support is there to make a mockery of a 26500 capacity IMHO even though it seems a world away. The capacity of the redeveloped AG is NOT enough to support a Premier league BCFC IF we ever get there and the Vale would have offered the opportunity to fulfil all the aspirations that this club COULD be.

While I applaud the new Gate, it isn't the Vale and does NOT offer the potential the Vale could have offered the future BCFC although it covers the short term more than adequately.

Short termism? Brilliant.

Totally agree!

Long termism? An opportunity seems to have been missed.

Disappointed, BS30.

[sunningdalered]

The fact that such a small group of objectors can de-rail what is such a hugely beneficial development for this city as a whole exposes the myth of democracy for the sham that it is.

For those that see this as a missed opportunity for the club to fulfil its EPL potential, however,I would point out that over and above whatever financial commitment would be required from SL and the Board to make AV a reality, there would also need to be a sizeable investment in the playing squad required to get into the premier league, and stay there. Does anyone seriously think this would happen without foreign investment / ownership?

In the absence of the required investment on the playing side, with AV developed, that leaves us playing in a one-third / half full stadium every other weekend. Even if AV was financially viable at this level of attendance, would that be a great prospect?

[tiz]

Cider up can you post the you tube link please.....I know pigging uesless tiz

[CotswoldRed]

Anyone know of a City in the whole of Western Europe, of a similar size, with worse sports and leisure facilities?

[chipdawg]

It wasn't the few objectors that detailed this, as well organised and determined as they appeared to be, it was the apathy of the wider population. For many reasons- some the fault of the club and some pure circumstance- the wider population of the city just doesn't connect with the football club and as such, there appeared to be apathy towards the whole thing from across Bristol. Not to mention of course a lack of competence in the council that could have put us on a stronger footing. Any development is going to face some opposition, but a greater problem IMO is the lack of support

Someone bemoaned the presence of a liberal, middle class mayor before; I think the fact needs to be faced that Bristol is (in relative terms) a liberal, middle class city ando if the club is to move forward, the liberal middle classes need to be engaged. The trick is to do that without mortgaging the working class background of the core support

I personally want to see Ashton Vale but if its not going to happen, we should try and make any money we (i mean Steve Lansdown) can from the land to put against the redevelopment of AG and take it from there. I don't think the future is bleak without a new ground, it's just different

[CotswoldRed]

Lets stay positive. How many clubs have 'made good' of their existing run-down stadiums to at least have a taste/sniff of success in recent years? Is there any reason why we can't emulate at least one of them? There are too many of them to suggest the task is impossible. All of those below have made the Prem and are still in their spritual homes. They aren't in the top 4 of the Prem, but nobody is asking for that. OK, some have a greater pedigree from years gone by, but that isn't a licence to the top flight on its own.

Charlton

West Brom

Birmingham

Charlton

Norwich

Palace

Blackpool

Burnley

QPR

There are others and some of the above even have/had smaller capacities than our own.

[ciderup]

Cider up can you post the you tube link please.....I know pigging uesless tiz

Here you go Tiz...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3DCvNkGuME

[nebristolred]

Lets stay positive. How many clubs have 'made good' of their existing run-down stadiums to at least have a taste/sniff of success in recent years? Is there any reason why we can't emulate at least one of them? There are too many of them to suggest the task is impossible. All of those below have made the Prem and are still in their spritual homes. They aren't in the top 4 of the Prem, but nobody is asking for that. OK, some have a greater pedigree from years gone by, but that isn't a licence to the top flight on its own.

Charlton

West Brom

Birmingham

Charlton

Norwich

Palace

Blackpool

Burnley

QPR

There are others and some of the above even have/had smaller capacities than our own.

The thing is, the majority of the clubs you listed there have had major revamps, with stadiums that actually look half-decent, retain character and have expansion potential. Ours is a major revamp for sure, but cannot satisfy the other criteria. QPR made it due to being a London based club with a **** load of money, and Blackpool and Palace have merely "flirted" with the Prem.

[Bat Fastard]

The teams that do best in the Premiership have large capacity stadia and have massive fan bases. The plans for City should be based upon what we are aiming to achieve in the long term - and not let our judgement be clouded by short term issues and expectations. A re-vamped Ashton Gate will give the club a good base for becoming a good Championship or (at best) a yo-yo Premiership outfit. Ashton Vale, with an option to expand to 42,000 capacity - and the space to go even further, would be the smart plan to follow. The revamped AG option is going to limit the club for all time and will be seen as a cop out in years to come.

Ambition is needed!!

[ciderup]

The teams that do best in the Premier League have large capacity stadia and have massive fan bases. The plans for City should be based upon what we are aiming to achieve in the long term - and not let our judgement be clouded by short term issues and expectations. A re-vamped Ashton Gate will give the club a good base for becoming a good Championship or (at best) a yo-yo Premier League outfit. Ashton Vale, with an option to expand to 42,000 capacity - and the space to go even further, would be the smart plan to follow. The revamped AG option is going to limit the club for all time and will be seen as a cop out in years to come.

Ambition is needed!!

Bang on the money BF! I agree with every word.

[CotswoldRed]

The thing is, the majority of the clubs you listed there have had major revamps, with stadiums that actually look half-decent, retain character and have expansion potential. Ours is a major revamp for sure, but cannot satisfy the other criteria. QPR made it due to being a London based club with a **** load of money, and Blackpool and Palace have merely "flirted" with the Prem.

I understand your points, but -

Which of the above clubs have actually got stadia that feature something AG couldn't have?

QPR have been in the Prem more than just last year (though in recent years maybe it is the money that matters).

Palace have been to the Prem a few times too.

I'd be happy with flirting around!

[sunningdalered]

The teams that do best in the Premier League have large capacity stadia and have massive fan bases. The plans for City should be based upon what we are aiming to achieve in the long term - and not let our judgement be clouded by short term issues and expectations. A re-vamped Ashton Gate will give the club a good base for becoming a good Championship or (at best) a yo-yo Premier League outfit. Ashton Vale, with an option to expand to 42,000 capacity - and the space to go even further, would be the smart plan to follow. The revamped AG option is going to limit the club for all time and will be seen as a cop out in years to come.

Ambition is needed!!

I can't ever see city being a long-term EPL resident - without a massive injection of funds, that comes with significant strings attached.

The real loss, if AV doesn't happen, is to the whole of the city not bcfc - and, the failure of the club to get wider, and very vocal, support for these new facilities, from non-football sources, has been the real failing in all of this.

[Opeth67]

Bad news - AG is NOT the answer, and bad news if due to the council and red trousers AG is the only option.

Somehow I have the feeling Mr Landsdown will have something up his sleeves because I don't think he will be prepared to fail in his dream of a brand new stadium.

[Bat Fastard]

There is an outside chance of securing Premiership Status on a yo-yo basis with the re-vamped Ashton Gate. If we were ever to stand even a chance of competing with the big boys - we would need a big stadium. Ashton Gate cannot be increased much more than the current planned improvements.

If the Lansdown family ever want to sell the club to a rich buyer - they would stand more chance of a big profit if the club has maximum potential - i.e. develops AV and not AG. The sums of cash available for a successful Premiership club are so massive that it would be plain daft (IMHO) to forgo the fight to develop AV.

It is all about vision and ambition. The fight could continue whilst AG is being developed if necessary. Any cash lost would be swiftly recouped if we could ever get established in the Premiership. An alternative would be to find a more determined buyer, who would be up for the fight and have pockets that were deep enough to not accept second best.

[Tales From The Front]

It wasn't the few objectors that detailed this, as well organised and determined as they appeared to be, it was the apathy of the wider population. For many reasons- some the fault of the club and some pure circumstance- the wider population of the city just doesn't connect with the football club and as such, there appeared to be apathy towards the whole thing from across Bristol. Not to mention of course a lack of competence in the council that could have put us on a stronger footing. Any development is going to face some opposition, but a greater problem IMO is the lack of support

Someone bemoaned the presence of a liberal, middle class mayor before; I think the fact needs to be faced that Bristol is (in relative terms) a liberal, middle class city ando if the club is to move forward, the liberal middle classes need to be engaged. The trick is to do that without mortgaging the working class background of the core support

I personally want to see Ashton Vale but if its not going to happen, we should try and make any money we (i mean Steve Lansdown) can from the land to put against the redevelopment of AG and take it from there. I don't think the future is bleak without a new ground, it's just different

Agree with a the general point you make, the points I was making in reply to a question why Bristol doesn't approve large ambitious developments. The City council historically in my view didn't like private investment because it was ideeologicaly opposed, preferring state controlled schemes. However since the late 90s this stance has changed very slightly but has been replaced by what you appear to agree is middle class liberalism. You only have to look around the change in Southville over thenlast decade or so to come to this conclusion. I agree if we could engage this "new" Bristol it would be great, but George Fergusons Eco-Village as a development was seen as not as financially viable as a supermarket for the exiting Ashton Gate site. The problem is Steve Landsdown is trying to build a sports stadium, primarily for football not a theatre or polo pitch.

[bcfcnick]

There is an outside chance of securing Premier League Status on a yo-yo basis with the re-vamped Ashton Gate. If we were ever to stand even a chance of competing with the big boys - we would need a big stadium. Ashton Gate cannot be increased much more than the current planned improvements.

If the Lansdown family ever want to sell the club to a rich buyer - they would stand more chance of a big profit if the club has maximum potential - i.e. develops AV and not AG. The sums of cash available for a successful Premier League club are so massive that it would be plain daft (IMHO) to forgo the fight to develop AV.

It is all about vision and ambition. The fight could continue whilst AG is being developed if necessary. Any cash lost would be swiftly recouped if we could ever get established in the Premier League. An alternative would be to find a more determined buyer, who would be up for the fight and have pockets that were deep enough to not accept second best.

There is an outside chance of securing Premier League Status on a yo-yo basis with the re-vamped Ashton Gate. If we were ever to stand even a chance of competing with the big boys - we would need a big stadium. Ashton Gate cannot be increased much more than the current planned improvements.

If the Lansdown family ever want to sell the club to a rich buyer - they would stand more chance of a big profit if the club has maximum potential - i.e. develops AV and not AG. The sums of cash available for a successful Premier League club are so massive that it would be plain daft (IMHO) to forgo the fight to develop AV.

It is all about vision and ambition. The fight could continue whilst AG is being developed if necessary. Any cash lost would be swiftly recouped if we could ever get established in the Premier League. An alternative would be to find a more determined buyer, who would be up for the fight and have pockets that were deep enough to not accept second best.

Pretty much spot on. At a revamped Ashton Gate we could be a yo-yo Premiership / Championship Club and that might be a perfect and sensible ambition for the likes of Blackpool, Burnley or Watford but for a club in a city of Bristol's size with a significant catchment area without competing clubs it smacks of settling for second best.

Steve L doesn't strike me as someone to throw in the towel and accept a second-rate option without a fight so I find it all a bit hard to fathom. If he has given up pursuing AV then perhaps it would be better if he sold the Club to someone with the fight and finance to fund a new 30,000 adaptable to 40,0000 stadium and prepare City for the decades to come as an established premier league club.

It would be disappointing if SL relinquished the challenge as it would be nice for a decent British owner (albeit Guernsey based) to take the Club to the higher levels with a stadium that means City could be an upper table premiership Club by rights on the basis of its facilities and income as opposed to temporary managerial over achievement.

I know SL has to play his cards close to his chest on this one but I assume he already knows if he still plans to pursue AV if he gets AG planning permission. On the basis he is not dithering in his decision-making then logic suggests he won't pursue AV because a delayed hearing doesn't save costs it just postpones them at best or increases them as there will be inflation and increased paperwork for the delay. If AV really remained his dream then deliberately creating a delay on this long running saga would seem strange given that surely he would want his preferred option to go through as quick as possible. The only conclusion I can draw is that he has given up but I hope I am wrong.

[Jesus]

Here you go Tiz...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3DCvNkGuME

For some reason it really bothers me that the badge onto of the Williams doesn't face inwards.