Rigby Killers Plead Not Guilty...

[nebristolred]

The problem with the British legal system is that it is very expensive and infested with overpaid upper middle class and upper class Toffs and is no where near being the best in the world as our judicial Toffs would have us believe. One example is Hillsborough where everyone now knows that statements were fiddled by Police and Police CPS lawyers to put all the blame on the football supporters. Not one Policeman or Police CPS lawyer has yet to be prosecuted after nearly 25 years. You can't fault the Saudi legal system in this respect where even Princesses get stoned - no class based system in operation there. In conclusion, our legal system is class based and weighted heavily against the English working man and football supporter.

I disagree with most of that to be honest, that's fair enough. When referring to the legal system, I was referring to the criminal justice system, i.e. personal trials and the CPS, and in that I wasn't including the likes of subsequent internal/external inquiries, etc, but you weren't to know that. In that respect, I think there is nothing better in the world, and I would like to hear which country is supposedly better than ours. It's by no means perfect, but it's as fair as it can possibly be I think, and I've not really seen evidence of any class preference. Of course, barristers and judges will be more likely to be toffs, because of their education, but with regard to actual judgements and sentences, I'd be surprised if there is any prejudice against the working classes.

With regard to Hillsborough on the other hand, I do agree, but I don't think it's down to any class prejudice once again. It was simply a case of the Police covering their backs having ballsed up, and it would be the same if "toffy" cricket fans had run riot (like that would happen!).

[Mr Mosquito]

Of course, barristers and judges will be more likely to be toffs, because of their education, but with regard to actual judgements and sentences, I'd be surprised if there is any prejudice against the working classes.

OK, criminal justice system. The prejudice against the English working man and ordinary football supporter is in the fact that Police and CPS will go all out for a court case and prosecution. Police and CPS are much less likely to take a well connected middle class or upper class person to court for the same offence. Corrupt middle class / upper class people also have access to the best lawyers - by nature of their personal wealth and connections - that make their chances of avoiding prosecution even better should they actually be taken to court.

[Red-Robbo]

The killers of Rigby would actually want death. In their shit-fer-brains worldview it would make them martyrs, which is what they seek. That's why they made 'martyrdom videos' and did not attempt to escape, but raised their weapons at arriving police. They expected 'suicide by cop'.

Far better IMO to let them rot away in jail for 40 years - always fearing attacks from other lags - then when they are old, decrepit and could be a. drain on the NHS, deport them to Nigeria.

[Mr Mosquito]

The killers of Rigby would actually want death. In their shit-fer-brains worldview it would make them martyrs, which is what they seek. That's why they made 'martyrdom videos' and did not attempt to escape, but raised their weapons at arriving police. They expected 'suicide by cop'.

Far better IMO to let them rot away in jail for 40 years - always fearing attacks from other lags - then when they are old, decrepit and could be a. drain on the NHS, deport them to Nigeria.

If they're tried and executed via Sharia court and swordsman in Saudi Arabia then they wont be martyrs. The answer is to send them to Saudi Arabia. Also, it seems they may have been radicalized while in prison - not too difficult to find out who radicalized them in prison - send the Islamic radicalizers to Saudi Arabia as well. Saudi Arabians do not like immigrants - let alone murderous immigrants who they'll delight in beheading in front of an audience.

[Red-Robbo]

If they're tried and executed via Sharia court and swordsman in Saudi Arabia then they wont be martyrs. The answer is to send them to Saudi Arabia. Also, it seems they may have been radicalized while in prison - not too difficult to find out who radicalized them in prison - send the Islamic radicalizers to Saudi Arabia as well. Saudi Arabians do not like immigrants - let alone murderous immigrants who they'll delight in beheading in front of an audience.

Of course they'd be considered martyrs. The al-Sauds are considered greater 'Satans' than the Anericans by al-Qaeda and its fans.

I have no problem, per se, with the death penalty by the way. I just think it's better punishment to keep criminals who want to die - like Ian Brady - alive.

[Mr Mosquito]

Of course they'd be considered martyrs. The al-Sauds are considered greater 'Satans' than the Anericans by al-Qaeda and its fans.

I have no problem, per se, with the death penalty by the way. I just think it's better punishment to keep criminals who want to die - like Ian Brady - alive.

The journalists that had to sit through and listen to the evidence of Moors Murderers Hindley and Brady have been tormented for 40+ years now by what they heard. Not nice for the Police and lawyers as well - a suitable conclusion would have been for Hindley and Brady to be executed to spare the suffering of the victim's relatives, the Police and judiciary and the journalists. Again, we have the Labour Party to blame for abolishing the death penalty for murder - as abolished by Harold Wilson and for High Treason - as abolished by Tony Blair the known liar and traitor.

[TRL]

The journalists that had to sit through and listen to the evidence of Moors Murderers Hindley and Brady have been tormented for 40+ years now by what they heard. Not nice for the Police and lawyers as well - a suitable conclusion would have been for Hindley and Brady to be executed to spare the suffering of the victim's relatives, the Police and judiciary and the journalists. Again, we have the Labour Party to blame for abolishing the death penalty for murder - as abolished by Harold Wilson and for High Treason - as abolished by Tony Blair the known liar and traitor.

I don't think they would ever have got the death penalty while there were still bodies out there. I don't think the parents of those killed wanted that either, they wanted closure and a chance to bury their kids. Some may never have got that, but while there was a chance I am sure they would have wanted Hindley and Brady alive.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

The bottom line is this, these 2 guys are still alive, so they have failed in their mission to become martyrs and as we have no death penalty (which would have almost certainly brought a guilty plea) their only hope is now a public show trial, where they van spew their vile vitriol.

[Mr Mosquito]

I don't think they would ever have got the death penalty while there were still bodies out there. I don't think the parents of those killed wanted that either, they wanted closure and a chance to bury their kids. Some may never have got that, but while there was a chance I am sure they would have wanted Hindley and Brady alive.

Well, I know of a journalist present at the trial that was extremely traumatized by what he heard of what Brady and Hindley did to those children. He wanted closure and he wanted Brady and Hindley strung up and dead.

[TRL]

Well, I know of a journalist present at the trial that was extremely traumatized by what he heard of what Brady and Hindley did to those children. He wanted closure and he wanted Brady and Hindley strung up and dead.

I bet he did. But it is not him that is important. The victims families that are the ones that matter. Not sure what kind of closure a journalist would want, if he isn't related to the dead to be honest.

[Mr Mosquito]

I bet he did. But it is not him that is important. The victims families that are the ones that matter. Not sure what kind of closure a journalist would want, if he isn't related to the dead to be honest.

What you're writing is playing into the hands of the Islamists that killed Lee Rigby - what this thread is about. England has become weak and corrupted by Labour Party Cultural Marxists that have abolished the death penalty even for the most heinous crimes. It's still not too late to hang Brady by piano wire and show the Islamist world that England is strong again both morally and ethically.

[TRL]

What you're writing is playing into the hands of the Islamists that killed Lee Rigby - what this thread is about. England has become weak and corrupted by Labour Party Cultural Marxists that have abolished the death penalty even for the most heinous crimes. It's still not too late to hang Brady by piano wire and show the Islamist world that England is strong again both morally and ethically.

Not really. You could kill these two islamists and feed them to pigs. The last thing a muslim would want... why? Because the victims family knows where there loved one are buried or cremated.

A completely different murder and outcome to the moors murderers. Why Hindley and Brady were mentioned in the first place I am not sure. But I wanted to point out the difference between the murders and the victims families.

My belief, if you don't want martyrs, ensure something will happen to the body when dead that may put them off. Hence my feed to pigs post further up.

[Mr Mosquito]

Not really. You could kill these two islamists and feed them to pigs. The last thing a muslim would want... why? Because the victims family knows where there loved one are buried or cremated.

A completely different murder and outcome to the moors murderers. Why Hindley and Brady were mentioned in the first place I am not sure. But I wanted to point out the difference between the murders and the victims families.

My belief, if you don't want martyrs, ensure something will happen to the body when dead that may put them off. Hence my feed to pigs post further up.

Excellent comment, feed the Muslim convert killers of Lee Rigby to the pigs so they come out of the backside of the pigs as pig shit.

[TRL]

Excellent comment, feed the Muslim convert killers of Lee Rigby to the pigs so they come out of the backside of the pigs as pig shit.

I've mentioned this many times. I often get odd looks and called sick.. I say if it is a deterrent, then why not.

If nut jobs are happy to kill themselves, something that puts doubts in their minds can only be good

[Mr Mosquito]

I've mentioned this many times. I often get odd looks and called sick.. I say if it is a deterrent, then why not.

If nut jobs are happy to kill themselves, something that puts doubts in their minds can only be good

Excellent comments, but is our political leadership including Camoron and Clegg man enough to implement - I think not. What the Islamists do respect is strength and the more of their membership that can be dispatched to Allah as pig shit the better.

[nebristolred]

The journalists that had to sit through and listen to the evidence of Moors Murderers Hindley and Brady have been tormented for 40+ years now by what they heard. Not nice for the Police and lawyers as well - a suitable conclusion would have been for Hindley and Brady to be executed to spare the suffering of the victim's relatives, the Police and judiciary and the journalists. Again, we have the Labour Party to blame for abolishing the death penalty for murder - as abolished by Harold Wilson and for High Treason - as abolished by Tony Blair the known liar and traitor.

Without meaning to start a new debate, there are a million reasons why there should not be the death penalty, and subsequently that shows by the fact that the most civilised countries in the world have no death penalty. Regardless of political views, the death penalty would have gone with or without Labour in office, and rightly so. Whatever emotional views you have, and whatever punishment you feel a guilty party "deserves" to get, there are far too many problems with the death penalty, and zero benefits (apart from the satisfaction one may get from a murderer being hanged).

[Fordy62]

The death penalty is irreversible. On that reasoning alone, we'll never see it. Our judicial system is the best in the world at protecting the innocent man (and the guilty a lot of the time), but at least when they get it wrong a payout and a pardon can be done.

[Mr Mosquito]

The death penalty is irreversible. On that reasoning alone, we'll never see it. Our judicial system is the best in the world at protecting the innocent man (and the guilty a lot of the time), but at least when they get it wrong a payout and a pardon can be done.

........23+ years and we're still waiting for justice over Hillsbrough where Police and Police CPS lawyers fiddled witness statements and 'lost' video tapes that were important evidences of Police decisions and actions. Our judicial system is certainly not the best in the world at protecting the innocent man - what about Tony Martin that was under siege from burglars ?????!!!!! When Tony Martin shot two of them - good on him - the burglar that survived was going to be allowed to sue him for loss of sex life etc using taxpayers' monies. Our judicial system then heaped all the blame on Tony Martin by giving him a very long prison sentence - only reduced when there was massive public protest and outrage against our criminal justice system's decision.

Our judicial system is the best in the world at protecting the innocent man????!!!!! - pure fantasy.

[The Gasbuster]

The death penalty is irreversible. On that reasoning alone, we'll never see it. Our judicial system is the best in the world at protecting the innocent man (and the guilty a lot of the time), but at least when they get it wrong a payout and a pardon can be done.

Lee Rigby's killers are 100% guilty, they even wanted passers by to film them on their phones !

With D.N.A. testing now, it is possible to be 100% sure in some cases. The death penalty should be an option in these circumstances.

[Mr Mosquito]

Lee Rigby's killers are 100% guilty, they even wanted passers by to film them on their phones !

With D.N.A. testing now, it is possible to be 100% sure in some cases. The death penalty should be an option in these circumstances.

I reckon those brainwashed Muslim converts that mutilated and killed Lee Rigby were part of the expendable first attack wave to test the resolve of the British state. If Islamists know they can kill who they want without being hung when captured that puts the whole country in grave danger. It should also be easier to deport Islamist hate preachers and their families to their Muslim countries of origin. If they get tortured and executed back home - why is that our problem? For that to be made possible we must leave the EU and rip up the Human Rights Charter that only seems to protect the human rights of foreign criminals, serial criminals and hate preachers like Abu Qatada.

[Red-Robbo]

I reckon those brainwashed Muslim converts that mutilated and killed Lee Rigby were part of the expendable first attack wave to test the resolve of the British state. If Islamists know they can kill who they want without being hung when captured that puts the whole country in grave danger. It should also be easier to deport Islamist hate preachers and their families to their Muslim countries of origin. If they get tortured and executed back home - why is that our problem? For that to be made possible we must leave the EU and rip up the Human Rights Charter that only seems to protect the human rights of foreign criminals, serial criminals and hate preachers like Abu Qatada.

But they want to be martyred.

The fact that these *unts have no fear of death is what makes them so dangerous.

I have much sympathy with what you and Gasbuster are saying, but I just don't know how you could frame a law that said "no death penalty unless we're really, really certain of guilt". They are meant to be really, really certain of guilt every time they convict anyone.

[Mr Mosquito]

But they want to be martyred.

The fact that these *unts have no fear of death is what makes them so dangerous.

I have much sympathy with what you and Gasbuster are saying, but I just don't know how you could frame a law that said "no death penalty unless we're really, really certain of guilt". They are meant to be really, really certain of guilt every time they convict anyone.

The Vikings had no fear of death when they were invading the North of England and they believed they'd be carried to heaven by warrior maidens to Valhalla. The answer to them was to kill them as fast as they invaded. The Christian Norman Conquerors certainly finished the last of them off in the North of England by killing and starving them out after the Norman conquest of England in 1066.

[Red-Robbo]

The Vikings had no fear of death when they were invading the North of England and they believed they'd be carried to heaven by warrior maidens to Valhalla. The answer to them was to kill them as fast as they invaded. The Christian Norman Conquerors certainly finished the last of them off in the North of England by killing and starving them out after the Norman conquest of England in 1066.

They'd already converted to Christianity by then, Gobbers. And don't forget that the Normans were themselves originally Vikings.

Of course, the main problem with that analogy is that there were fairly small numbers of Vikings, but many millions of potential jihadis.

[TRL]

The death penalty is irreversible. On that reasoning alone, we'll never see it. Our judicial system is the best in the world at protecting the innocent man (and the guilty a lot of the time), but at least when they get it wrong a payout and a pardon can be done.

So you you wouldn't have it for those caught on camera murdering a soldier, waiting fo the police, attacking the police... on camera. For cases like this the death penalty is a open and shut case. Any other case where there is even 1% doubt I'd agree. But thete is no doubt with this case. All imo of course.

[Red-Robbo]

So you you wouldn't have it for those caught on camera murdering a soldier, waiting fo the police, attacking the police... on camera. For cases like this the death penalty is a open and shut case. Any other case where there is even 1% doubt I'd agree. But thete is no doubt with this case. All imo of course.

But there is meant to be no doubt at any time. If we'd had the death penaltiy the Guildford 4, Stefan Kiszko, the Cardiff 3. and countless others

would have been wrongly murdered by the state on the basis of 'beyond reasonable doubt ' verdicts.

[nebristolred]

........23+ years and we're still waiting for justice over Hillsbrough where Police and Police CPS lawyers fiddled witness statements and 'lost' video tapes that were important evidences of Police decisions and actions. Our judicial system is certainly not the best in the world at protecting the innocent man - what about Tony Martin that was under siege from burglars ?????!!!!! When Tony Martin shot two of them - good on him - the burglar that survived was going to be allowed to sue him for loss of sex life etc using taxpayers' monies. Our judicial system then heaped all the blame on Tony Martin by giving him a very long prison sentence - only reduced when there was massive public protest and outrage against our criminal justice system's decision.

Our judicial system is the best in the world at protecting the innocent man????!!!!! - pure fantasy.

You can bring up isolated cases in any situation, but please tell me, which judicial system in the world is better than ours? There is none, and it is in fact pure fantasy to suggest otherwise.

Lee Rigby's killers are 100% guilty, they even wanted passers by to film them on their phones !

With D.N.A. testing now, it is possible to be 100% sure in some cases. The death penalty should be an option in these circumstances.

Simplistic view I'm afraid. Even if you had full HD video recordings of a murder, there is no such thing as 100% guilt. You also couldn't use 100% guilt, as the burden of proof in this country is beyond reasonable doubt. The death penalty, as mentioned, would be unsuitable in this situation for a million reasons, it's just not implementable and it's sick in it's own way.

[nebristolred]

So you you wouldn't have it for those caught on camera murdering a soldier, waiting fo the police, attacking the police... on camera. For cases like this the death penalty is a open and shut case. Any other case where there is even 1% doubt I'd agree. But thete is no doubt with this case. All imo of course.

Prove to me, without ANY doubt whatsoever, that the guy wasn't abducted by aliens and had his brain modified to commit the crime. It's a stupid example, but you have to encompass all extremes when writing the law, and you cannot say for 100% that the guy didn't have a treatable mental illness, or wasn't acting of his own accord, etc. It is impossible to find someone guilty beyond any doubt.

[TRL]

Prove to me, without ANY doubt whatsoever, that the guy wasn't abducted by aliens and had his brain modified to commit the crime. It's a stupid example, but you have to encompass all extremes when writing the law, and you cannot say for 100% that the guy didn't have a treatable mental illness, or wasn't acting of his own accord, etc. It is impossible to find someone guilty beyond any doubt.

This is true. I depends on how we want to treat mentally ill murderer's. Try to rehabilitate or remove from society. Unfortunately the way the law works, people opt for the diminished responsibility route.

It really doesn't bother me if it was bought back or not. Beyond doubt can never be proven. For the reason you say. But that really isn't beyond doubt, that is arguing mitigating circumstances. They still did it.

I have no doubt the fear they will live in in prison is is probably worse than the quick dispatch they may have got with the death penalty (depending on how long the were held at her majestys pleasure before dispatch)

[nebristolred]

Your final point is precisely true, and nullifies the only argument that people have FOR the death penalty, and that is to see the person suffer. Being in prison for life is quite possibly worse.

That's ignoring it's permanency, hypocrisy, expense and general uselessness. Contrary to popular opinion, it really is not a deterrent to murder.

[The Gasbuster]

You can bring up isolated cases in any situation, but please tell me, which judicial system in the world is better than ours? There is none, and it is in fact pure fantasy to suggest otherwise.

Simplistic view I'm afraid. Even if you had full HD video recordings of a murder, there is no such thing as 100% guilt. You also couldn't use 100% guilt, as the burden of proof in this country is beyond reasonable doubt. The death penalty, as mentioned, would be unsuitable in this situation for a million reasons, it's just not implementable and it's sick in it's own way.

Simplistic ??!!

Perhaps, yes ! but why overcomplicate things ?

Issues like this are made needlessly complicated. Lawyers and judges procrastinate over things, at our expense, for months on end, when sometimes things are glaringly obvious.

You say there is no such thing as 100% ,so what exactly is the probability of their guilt ?

I don't know why you claim the death penalty is somehow sick, perhaps you would like to explain ?

If those two murderers get life sentences, then it should mean life - with no pity taken upon them when they are old and grey either.

And regular visits to their cells by half a dozen serving squaddies wouldn't go amiss either !