Stadium Decision

[ChippenhamRed]

When is the decision between Ashton Vale and Ashton Gate due to be announced?

Do we read anything into the fact that we have not heard anything yet? Once planning permission was granted for the redevelopment I expected the death of the Ashton Vale project to be announced very quickly - since this hasn't happened it suggests to me that Ashton Vale is still under serious consideration.

I do hope that is the case because for me Ashton Vale is the far superior option in the long term, for both the club and the city, and worth fighting for.

Apologies if I'm covering old ground again here, just curious to know when we will hear.

[Dollymarie]

Waiting for all the section 106's to be signed off on AG before a decision/announcement is made. Also have to wait until the period has passed for anyone to ask for a JR, so that nobody is gonna stick their oar in. Should be within next few weeks.

[Bat Fastard]

The choice had been made and a "redevelopment manager" has been appointed. I agree with Chip, Ashton Vale would have been the only choice if we were ever to become an established Premiership club. With 26000 max capacity at Ashton Gate - with all the difficulties of access and parking, we will only ever be a championship team with a bit of yo yo. Sad - but better than our current situation. I can't help feeling that there is a lack of true commitment somewhere.

[Aizoon]

Waiting for all the section 106's to be signed off on AG before a decision/announcement is made. Also have to wait until the period has passed for anyone to ask for a JR, so that nobody is gonna stick their oar in. Should be within next few weeks.

I believe it's traditional to ask for a JR on the last possible day, to be as big a PITA as possible

[Cider red]

Waiting for all the section 106's to be signed off on AG before a decision/announcement is made. Also have to wait until the period has passed for anyone to ask for a JR, so that nobody is gonna stick their oar in. Should be within next few weeks.

Landown confirmed the Jr period has passed at bradford! I expect to hear something soon. Pretty sure work will start in the summer

Edit: my bad no it hasn't, read it on here and its bolox. Hopefully the club will quietly sign the 106 and get through the Jr period, will be a farce if we have delays on redeveloping the gate.

[CiderJar]

I believe it's traditional to ask for a JR on the last possible day, to be as big a PITA as possible

 

I have never heard the acronym "PITA" before, is that why we eat pita bread with curry, and does it help the resultant PITA in any way? It would be useful to know.

[Aizoon]

I have never heard the acronym "PITA" before, is that why we eat pita bread with curry, and does it help the resultant PITA in any way? It would be useful to know.

I'm amazed you haven't heard of PITA! Piles of people use it...

[Pickled Onion]

I read the approval for a new arena for Bristol being the final nail for AV. Am I reading that wrong?

[ChippenhamRed]

Cheers for the replies. Sounds like it's just formalities then. Shame really, if Ashton Vale had never existed as a plan I would be excited about the redevelopment, but now the overwhelming feeling is disappointment.

Part of me actually wants the redevelopment plans to stall a bit so the club thinks twice about killing off Ashton Vale.

[Calculus]

Anybody know about the status of the Ashton Vale/TVG Judicial Review? Surely they can't go on for ever and must time out at some point if not proceeded with.

[Cider red]

Cheers for the replies. Sounds like it's just formalities then. Shame really, if Ashton Vale had never existed as a plan I would be excited about the redevelopment, but now the overwhelming feeling is disappointment.

Part of me actually wants the redevelopment plans to stall a bit so the club thinks twice about killing off Ashton Vale.

We really don't want to stall. The club needs newfacilities facilities for non match day revenue and quickly, were still making 10 million losses every year. Whilst AV looked better the difference in money we can make is virtually zilch, and it will take another 5-10 years to fight the nimbys, we can'tafford that.

[Guest]

I read the approval for a new arena for Bristol being the final nail for AV. Am I reading that wrong?

That hasn't even started the initial planning phase and the money to build it hasn't even been guaranteed yet either. Even so not sure how it would be relevant to AV anyway

[havanatopia]

We really don't want to stall. The club needs newfacilities facilities for non match day revenue and quickly, were still making 10 million losses every year. Whilst AV looked better the difference in money we can make is virtually zilch, and it will take another 5-10 years to fight the nimbys, we can'tafford that.

 

'virtually zilch' ? Have you seen a spreadsheet showing a revenue comparison squire? I'd like to see how those sums come to such a conclusion. Consider, if you will, what BCFC would have at AV over and above AG:-

 

1. A minimum of 4k greater capacity with scope to expand to 40k

2. Larger and more executive boxes, conference rooms, restaurant capacity, shops, etc etc

3. A hotel

4. Additional developments of housing and/or commercial properties

5. far greater sponsorship opportunities.. probably double considering the far bigger footprint

 

I would suggest instead of 'virtually zilch' it would be, at the very least, 'virtually double if not triple'.

 

Bat Fast-forward has it right when he says 26k is not a sustainable capacity in the Prem. But don't believe what he says; Steve Lansdown made that very remark years ago and on more than one occasion when he said that we need 30k at least to be a 'sustainable' premier league team. So while on that mute point i have never seen one answer to that question i posed yonks ago; 'how can 26k now be acceptable' ? Or, put another way, does this mean the end of our long term Premier league dream? If not please explain how the numbers are now going to stack up Mr. L.

[Cider red]

'virtually zilch' ? Have you seen a spreadsheet showing a revenue comparison squire? I'd like to see how those sums come to such a conclusion. Consider, if you will, what BCFC would have at AV over and above AG:-

1. A minimum of 4k greater capacity with scope to expand to 40k

2. Larger and more executive boxes, conference rooms, restaurant capacity, shops, etc etc

3. A hotel

4. Additional developments of housing and/or commercial properties

5. far greater sponsorship opportunities.. probably double considering the far bigger footprint

I would suggest instead of 'virtually zilch' it would be, at the very least, 'virtually double if not triple'.

Bat Fast-forward has it right when he says 26k is not a sustainable capacity in the Prem. But don't believe what he says; Steve Lansdown made that very remark years ago and on more than one occasion when he said that we need 30k at least to be a 'sustainable' premier league team. So while on that mute point i have never seen one answer to that question i posed yonks ago; 'how can 26k now be acceptable' ? Or, put another way, does this mean the end of our long term Premier league dream? If not please explain how the numbers are now going to stack up Mr. L.

To be honest you sound more informed than me. I had believed that av was by far a superior money making scheme. However recently club officials (forgive me I forget who) have confirmed there is virtually no difference. Which means that either it was either just rhetoric from SL to get support for av, or vise versa. With regards to boxes I believe there will be a similar amount at ag however.

[havanatopia]

To be honest you sound more informed than me. I had believed that av was by far a superior money making scheme. However recently club officials (forgive me I forget who) have confirmed there is virtually no difference. Which means that either it was either just rhetoric from SL to get support for av, or vise versa. With regards to boxes I believe there will be a similar amount at ag however.

 

Well, if one looks at the development of both schemes the numbers should be clear to all. Your point about what 'someone at City' has recently said is interesting; sounds very much like a way of trying to bury the 'nay sayers' for AG; not too surprising but if they think people would 'buy it' they kinda treat us with a fairly hefty dosage of disdain.. which, of course, they have been doing anyway of late!!

[havanatopia]

You have to remember that with safe standing the capacity will go up to around 30k.

 

Even so, there are 8 Premier League clubs out of the 20 with capacities of 20k - 28k.

 

Yes I had pondered the thought of those seats. Perhaps the 'city official' that Cider Red mentioned was only comparing gate receipts but even then i would argue strongly that City would receive greater revenue, by charging more, for the probable use of better seats and leg room at AV.

 

As for the current crop of 20-28kers in the Prem.. i suppose will be yo yo'ers, some will have hotels and additional site revenue that a revamped AG would not have and some maybe sustainable models or simply 'Daddy's plaything. Be interesting to look at all of them and see.

 

That said, SL's stated aim was a min 30k with all the trimmings for sustainability not just a 30ker with somewhat expanded facilities inside the stands.

 

In my view the only way to make AG work is to eventually buy up the entire terraced block on Ashton Road (?) behind the Atyeo. I suspect Doris will hold out and scupper that though.

[Aizoon]

Yes I had pondered the thought of those seats. Perhaps the 'city official' that Cider Red mentioned was only comparing gate receipts but even then i would argue strongly that City would receive greater revenue, by charging more, for the probable use of better seats and leg room at AV.

 

As for the current crop of 20-28kers in the Prem.. i suppose will be yo yo'ers, some will have hotels and additional site revenue that a revamped AG would not have and some maybe sustainable models or simply 'Daddy's plaything. Be interesting to look at all of them and see.

 

That said, SL's stated aim was a min 30k with all the trimmings for sustainability not just a 30ker with somewhat expanded facilities inside the stands.

 

In my view the only way to make AG work is to eventually buy up the entire terraced block on Ashton Road (?) behind the Atyeo. I suspect Doris will hold out and scupper that though.

 

Who Doris? Couldn't we build a stand around her?

[havanatopia]

Cardiff - 

Palace - 

Fulham - 

Hull - 

Norwich -

Stoke - 

Swansea - 

WBA - 

 

There will always be these sort of clubs up there and we can only hope to be one of them one day.

 

Nothing wrong with that...

 

 

Cardiff - WE HOPE WORSE THAN A YO YO AND MORE A 'SPIRALLING DOWNWARDS TO OBLIVION' (SDO)

Palace - SDO

Fulham - London 'weighting'

Hull - Don't they have big 'around the ground' revenue streams? Anyway... SDO

Norwich - I thought they were over 30k ?

Stoke - This, for me is the oddball in the pack here... we know how they did it under Pulis Hoofball but under Hughes they might become a Yo-Yo.

Swansea - Per Hull ?

WBA - Always liked the Baggies as it happens. about 28k capacity if i remember correctly. The Hawthorns, from memory, always seems to have room to grow and now they are on the verge of being a regular prem team i would not be surprised if they have plans to expand.

 

Nothing wrong with that indeed sir.. at least for the short term. Fear of course is we do not go back up which could be a mighty financial mess.

[Pedrowe]

(AG vs AV)

 

Capacity 26.5k vs 30k

Exec Boxes 31 vs 26

Retail 360 sqm vs 382 sqm

Sport Bar 653 sqm vs ?

Museum 180 sqm vs ?

Car park 400 vs 1000

 

This shows a quick comparison of the two stadiums. Although, I couldn't find the floor space for the sport bar and museum at AV.

 

There is actually more exec boxes at a redeveloped AG. Also the enabling development (i.e hotel, fast food franchise, residential) was exactly that; it would have subsidised the vastly higher capital costs of  AV... accordingly we do not need it at a redeveloped AG.

 

The non-match takings of AV and AG, in my view, would be on par.

[Aizoon]

How big will the new trophy cabinet be at AG or AV?

[Cider red]

AG AV Capacity 26,500 30,000 Exec Box 31 26 Retail Floorspace 360 sq m 382 sq m Sports Bar 653 sq m ? Club museum 180 sq m ? Car park 295 1000 Enabling development None Fast food franchise, hotel, residential

This shows a quick comparison of the two stadiums. Although, I couldn't find the floor space for the sport bar and museum at AV.

There is actually more exec boxes at a redeveloped AG. Also the enabling development was exactly that; it would have subsidised the vastly higher capital costs of AV... accordingly we do not need it at a redeveloped AG.

The non-match takings of AV and AG, in my view, would be on par.

It's good to have facts, I was sure ag has more boxes than ag. Maybe the club official (think it may have been guy price at the time of the consultation) was telling the truth.

[You Do The Dziekanowski]

Capacity means zilch in the prem! Old days yes it meant a lot but now Sky/BT pay for the loss of attendance for the lower teams

Wigan lasted 8 seasons with an average attendance of around 20k, QPR have a small ground, Fulham have been in the prem for ages and have small gates

All it takes is for SL to buy the houses behind the ateyo and then we will be able to better the parking and increase the capacity

[havanatopia]

(AG vs AV)

 

Capacity 26.5k vs 30k

Exec Boxes 31 vs 26

Retail 360 sqm vs 382 sqm

Sport Bar 653 sqm vs ?

Museum 180 sqm vs ?

Car park 400 vs 1000

 

This shows a quick comparison of the two stadiums. Although, I couldn't find the floor space for the sport bar and museum at AV.

 

There is actually more exec boxes at a redeveloped AG. Also the enabling development (i.e hotel, fast food franchise, residential) was exactly that; it would have subsidised the vastly higher capital costs of  AV... accordingly we do not need it at a redeveloped AG.

 

The non-match takings of AV and AG, in my view, would be on par.

 

Cider Red.. I would not accept as 'fact' the remark that Pedrowe makes above that i have highlighted.

 

You would have to be a pretty dumb ass developer to contemplate such an exercise, go through millions of costs to date in the knowledge that you are only building the additionals to pay for the 'vastly' higher build cost.

 

Sorry Pedrowe but you are way off with those comments.

[havanatopia]

Capacity means zilch in the prem! Old days yes it meant a lot but now Sky/BT pay for the loss of attendance for the lower teams

Wigan lasted 8 seasons with an average attendance of around 20k, QPR have a small ground, Fulham have been in the prem for ages and have small gates

All it takes is for SL to buy the houses behind the ateyo and then we will be able to better the parking and increase the capacity

 

Yeah but you will probably have 'stick in the mud' Doris to contend with who will not move for any money. 

 

Mind you as Aizoon questioned earlier we could always build a stand around the 'Craven Cottage' but then again Doris mind have sight and sound faculties so she would know something is up when she goes to put the empty's out one morning only to be confronted with the Gents Toilets at the back of the stand.

[You Do The Dziekanowski]

**** You Doris!!

[CodeRed]

'virtually zilch' ? Have you seen a spreadsheet showing a revenue comparison squire? I'd like to see how those sums come to such a conclusion. Consider, if you will, what BCFC would have at AV over and above AG:-

 

1. A minimum of 4k greater capacity with scope to expand to 40k

2. Larger and more executive boxes, conference rooms, restaurant capacity, shops, etc etc

3. A hotel

4. Additional developments of housing and/or commercial properties

5. far greater sponsorship opportunities.. probably double considering the far bigger footprint

 

I would suggest instead of 'virtually zilch' it would be, at the very least, 'virtually double if not triple'.

 

Bat Fast-forward has it right when he says 26k is not a sustainable capacity in the Prem. But don't believe what he says; Steve Lansdown made that very remark years ago and on more than one occasion when he said that we need 30k at least to be a 'sustainable' premier league team. So while on that mute point i have never seen one answer to that question i posed yonks ago; 'how can 26k now be acceptable' ? Or, put another way, does this mean the end of our long term Premier league dream? If not please explain how the numbers are now going to stack up Mr. L.

Whilst the stadium itself and facilities within the stadium would generate more income v AG as you say - I think you are wrong

to include hotel, housing, and commercial developments in your analysis. 

The development of the wider AV site will be for the benefit of Vence (The Lansdowns plus partner).

Any income won't find it's way onto the BCFC Holdings balance sheet or accounts - How could it?  BCFC Holdings aren't building the houses or hotels.  The Stadium will be paid for by SL and rented to BCFC,  BCFC will benefit from Stadium generated revenue.

 

I'm not being critical of SL but the reality is that the AV stadium is completely separate from the commercial development of the rest of the land - in the same way that -  If we do stay at AG and SL re-develops AV for housing etc (as widely predicted) then the club won't profit from that housing. 

[pongo88]

Cardiff

Palace

Fulham

Hull

Norwich

Stoke

Swansea

WBA

There will always be these sort of clubs up there and we can only hope to be one of them one day.

Nothing wrong with that...

To be perfectly honest I think that's the best City can hope for. Being on a par with teams near the top - e.g. Liverpool - isn't likely to happen in the near future. Even getting level with the teams that traditionally float just below the top four - e.g. Newcastle - is a long way away. If City have a long term plan, and I mean long term, it must be to buy the houses behind the Atyeo as they come onto the market and then develop that end of the ground.

[The Gasbuster]

Going back several months to when we are able to see the redevelopment plans laid out at A.G., and were able to ask questions, one of the guys there had some interesting facts on the numbers.

Despite there being no income from the sale of A.G., this guy believed that S.L. would get his money back within 10 years.

With this in mind, perhaps he will continue the fight for A.V. after the redevelopment has completed.?

[cockneydave]

[Oxford Red]

I'd say we redevelop AG and work with what we have and know.

If we are stable and in the top division then think of a new stadium. People will come and watch the standard of football, not the stadium.

They will not come to a new stadium and watch us play Rochdale.

They will come to Ashton Gate and watch us play Forest/Reading/QPR etc etc

If we are stable in the top tier then we'll look. But the reality is the last time/only time that has been the case, my dad was my age going to watch with my granddad.