England V New Zealand

[kiwicolin]

Come on All Blacks.    

Should be a good game today.

[kevinmabbuttshair]

Already played nz won 16 14 :-)

[Super]

That was some try.

[Lrrr]

Great start from England

[kiwicolin]

Already played nz won 16 14 :-)

That was the 4 nations,

[Portland Bill]

Two nil today to the Kiwis,League and Union!

[MichaelRobartes]

New Zealand dug in, England didn't manage the sin bin period well I'm afraid.

Great result for us against the boks though, cracking game between Wales and the Aussies and Scotland actually scored some tries!

[westred1]

England played very well despite missing some key players I.e. Corbiseiro, Croft, Cole, Manu, Burrell, Launchbury, Parling et al. The sin bin period was crucial; NZ were unbelievable in that 10 minutes.

We score a great try via Jonny May (who incidentally I don't see as an international winger) and then fail to take advantage after putting NZ under pressure. If Mike Brown scores in the corner after we were camped on their line for 5 mins, we win the game - regardless of how early on in the match that incident was.

England are a very good team, but to be the best and to beat the best, which NZ are, you have to take your chances and step it up a gear.

However, how McCaw was man of the match I'll never know! In a game like that it has to go to one of the front 5 and Franks, for me, was outstanding.

Ireland were very impressive from what I saw. Pack worked well in the absence of O'Brien and Sexton was on top form.

Nice to see Wales just beat, the 10th match in a row against Australia would you believe! Both have defensive frailties which bodes well for England ahead of the RWC.

Scotland scoring tries is almost unheard of!!!

[Lrrr]

For me the Aus match is the key one, make a statement in that and the pool stages suddenly look easier. Next step will be to go to wales in the 6 nations and win in their back yard.

[westred1]

For me the Aus match is the key one, make a statement in that and the pool stages suddenly look easier. Next step will be to go to wales in the 6 nations and win in their back yard.

I don't regard it as that key. Australia aren't at their best at the moment and will be a totally different side come the RWC. Although it's interesting to note that, as it stands, England will be their last match before they face Fiji in September.

Wales will be the harder test and one that will determine where we stand going into the group stages. The opening Six Nations match, in front of the lights at the Millennium - arguably a tougher test than facing NZ in my opinion.

[Lrrr]

Agree about Wales at home, I went to uni in Wales and we got tickets on the cheap so went to a few, didn't quite realise how intimidating it can get when you're actually there

[westred1]

Agree about Wales at home, I went to uni in Wales and we got tickets on the cheap so went to a few, didn't quite realise how intimidating it can get when you're actually there

I watched Wales v Australia last year and although it wasn't full, the atmosphere was unreal. Definitely up there with the internationals I've seen.

I will always have a bias for Twickenham, and I can't wait to go there v Samoa, but the Millennium is something special.

[Portland Bill]

Amazing stat from the rugby club tv programme tonight.

In the 2nd half of Saturdays game, England had the ball for just 39 seconds in New Zealand's half in open play!

[westred1]

Very poor from England today; should never have lost that rugby match.

Normally I would try not to blame the referee but as it's Steve Walsh I have a different viewpoint. To call a penalty against Hartley and bin him for a decision he deemed 'worse than he thought' was outrageous. Vermauelen was on the wrong side and deserved a shoe in. Changed the game in my opinion.

[GodEmperor Palpatine]

Not a rugby fan  but I don't get the OTT criticism of England by the media... Lost narrowly to the 2 best rugby sides in the world.

[Super]

Time for Cipriani to get a game.

[MichaelRobartes]

Very poor from England today; should never have lost that rugby match.

Normally I would try not to blame the referee but as it's Steve Walsh I have a different viewpoint. To call a penalty against Hartley and bin him for a decision he deemed 'worse than he thought' was outrageous. Vermauelen was on the wrong side and deserved a shoe in. Changed the game in my opinion.

 

Sorry Lewis but I don't agree. There's a difference between rucking and stamping and Hartley clearly knew what he was doing as he pushed Vermauelen just before the stamp (which was also on the knee, dangerous enough). I'm afraid that Hartley's temperament shows no signs of improving. He's a senior player in that team and once again he's let everyone down. I thought Lawes was a bit lucky not to be sent to the bin for pulling down a couple of mauls but South Africa did their fair share of that too in fairness, though Matfield was eventually sent to the bin. You could argue that England lost the game because they couldn't defend a South African maul against 14 men, though I think it might have been truck-and-trailer, I haven't seen it again yet.

 

Overall I don't think England were nearly aggressive enough at the breakdown. Their (England's) set pieces were very good again but our win against the Boks last week showed that they can be rattled at the breakdown and England didn't seem to commit enough men there to exploit it. I'd say that Farrell looks a bit lost without a proper playmaker like 36 outside him as well, the backs looked pretty clueless whenever they got the ball and it was only when the forwards started to ignore them (also factoring in Matfield binning himself) that England could barge over the line a couple of times.

 

Agree with you that South Africa were there for the taking, but England have to play smarter than that to beat teams with that much experience. You could tell JDV was a bit sheepish afterwards in his interview, he knew the Boks had played poorly again.

 

In other news, the Scots were a bit unlucky, though Carter left a few points out there on his return. It's very early days but could Scotland already be starting to see the benefits of bringing in a top coach?

[MichaelRobartes]

Not a rugby fan  but I don't get the OTT criticism of England by the media... Lost narrowly to the 2 best rugby sides in the world.

 

It's worrying that England keep losing narrowly to the Southern Hemisphere sides. Wales have lost about a billion tests to the Aussies by a score and that shows no sign of ending soon, it becomes psychological. If England don't beat Australia then it'll be six straight defeats and two wins out of 14 against NZ, SA and Australia. England aren't a bad team at all, but they don't appear to have progressed much in the last 12-18 months.

[Portland Bill]

Not a rugby fan but I don't get the OTT criticism of England by the media... Lost narrowly to the 2 best rugby sides in the world.

England have only ever beaten NZ 7 times in about 50 test matches.

But every time England play them,the public and media seem to think that England will beat them.

It's hard to work out why!

[Miah Dennehy]

The only positive thing I can think of, is that we are missing some big players at the moment, so at least we have ran the two best sides in the world close- albeit in score rather than performance- with a weakened side.

I was at Twickenham for the All Blacks game, and we were absolutely nowhere near them in the second half, and after chatting to colleagues who went against SA it was apparently pretty much the same story of a close scoreline that didn't reflect the performance. I don't think it is panic time, but we have to start beating the big two sooner or later. For what it's worth I actually think SA are better than New Zealand at the moment and will win the world cup.

[westred1]

Sorry Lewis but I don't agree. There's a difference between rucking and stamping and Hartley clearly knew what he was doing as he pushed Vermauelen just before the stamp (which was also on the knee, dangerous enough). I'm afraid that Hartley's temperament shows no signs of improving. He's a senior player in that team and once again he's let everyone down. I thought Lawes was a bit lucky not to be sent to the bin for pulling down a couple of mauls but South Africa did their fair share of that too in fairness, though Matfield was eventually sent to the bin. You could argue that England lost the game because they couldn't defend a South African maul against 14 men, though I think it might have been truck-and-trailer, I haven't seen it again yet.

 

Overall I don't think England were nearly aggressive enough at the breakdown. Their (England's) set pieces were very good again but our win against the Boks last week showed that they can be rattled at the breakdown and England didn't seem to commit enough men there to exploit it. I'd say that Farrell looks a bit lost without a proper playmaker like 36 outside him as well, the backs looked pretty clueless whenever they got the ball and it was only when the forwards started to ignore them (also factoring in Matfield binning himself) that England could barge over the line a couple of times.

 

Agree with you that South Africa were there for the taking, but England have to play smarter than that to beat teams with that much experience. You could tell JDV was a bit sheepish afterwards in his interview, he knew the Boks had played poorly again.

 

In other news, the Scots were a bit unlucky, though Carter left a few points out there on his return. It's very early days but could Scotland already be starting to see the benefits of bringing in a top coach?

After looking at it again, it is more of a downward movement than a rake which by the law is a sin binning so fair enough. Just thought Walsh's comments were ridiculous. Hartley is a passionate player, who wears his hear on his sleeve and sometimes that counts against him in the heat of the battle. He should be England's hooker for the next five years, if he doesn't move to Montpelier as rumoured. He could easily reach 100 caps.

 

I think, whether we like it or not as rugby fans, truck and trailer is still part of the game and won't be fully abolished despite the laws in place. SA, and perhaps Ireland in the Northern Hemisphere, are particular good at exercising it to its full value and fair play to them; top international sides play on the edge of breaking the laws (New Zealand at the breakdown) whereas England are almost too nice, although solid in defence most of the time. Lawes is one of the only England players who will push the referee's boundaries and he probably should have been binned, I agree, but Walsh let it go so he kept doing it.

 

We aren't strong enough at the breakdown, with only Tom Wood and Chris Robshaw taking any credit there on the weekend. Lawes and Launchbury are normally immense there but obviously the latter was missing. The problem is the Southern Hemisphere have so much strength in depth - for example, and no disrespect to Rob Webber, but we bring on him to replace Hartley and they bring on arguably the best hooker in the world in Bismarck Du Plessis. We're missing Launchbury, Croft, Cole, Youngs, Corbiseiro and others in the pack which is decreasing our effectiveness in terms of quality and bulk.

 

With regards to Farrell, he needs to play flatter. He's improved in that respect a hell of a lot but Ford plays on the gainline and it's much more attacking and forceful rugby. To be fair, Faz is missing Manu, Luther, Joseph and 36 outside him so there isn't any particular international creativeness (Eastmond isn't the answer) in the centres or real bulldozing power (Barritt is solid in D but attack he lacks impetus). For that reason, Sam Burgess will be a welcome addition.

 

Scotland are a much-improved force and it's very much down to the management change and difference in philosophy. Vern Cotter has given the Scots a fresh look and I think they'll do well in the Six Nations.

['Orns]

Scotland are a much-improved force and it's very much down to the management change and difference in philosophy. Vern Cotter has given the Scots a fresh look and I think they'll do well in the Six Nations.

 

Have to say, although I have no love for the Scots being a proud Englishman, but it is great to see them playing some good stuff again. Been a long time since they were something to worry about

[Portland Bill]

Have to say, although I have no love for the Scots being a proud Englishman, but it is great to see them playing some good stuff again. Been a long time since they were something to worry about

Is it any coincidence that Scotland now have a kiwi coach,the same as Ireland and Wales.

Lancaster,although clearly a very nice bloke,hasn't got the tactical nous that the Kiwi coaches have.

England's back line look clueless compared to a lot of the other nations,no variety and at times it seems like no plan whatsoever.

The pack can hold there own,but you don't win test matches nowadays with just a good pack.

[westred1]

Have to say, although I have no love for the Scots being a proud Englishman, but it is great to see them playing some good stuff again. Been a long time since they were something to worry about

Although it is nice to see they've improved a hell of a lot since Cotter took over, there's no doubt that the influx of foreigners in their team is improving them. It's depressing that the Northern Hemisphere sides choose to import Southern Hemisphere players to their regions for their international use i.e. Anscombe (Wales) and Maitland (Scotland) et al.

 

Before anyone says, England is a slightly different scenario due to most of the foreign players having lived in this country since a very young age.

 

Is it any coincidence that Scotland now have a kiwi coach,the same as Ireland and Wales.

Lancaster,although clearly a very nice bloke,hasn't got the tactical nous that the Kiwi coaches have.

England's back line look clueless compared to a lot of the other nations,no variety and at times it seems like no plan whatsoever.

The pack can hold there own,but you don't win test matches nowadays with just a good pack.

 

I think the All Black influence comes from the coaching and mentality enforced from a young age. Similar to English football and the likes of Germany, Spain etc.

 

Lancaster has almost taken England as far as he can; I feel the decision to offer him a long term deal until after RWC 19 was a deal based on loyalty and progression rather than purely down to rugby. No doubt he's solidified our defence a hell of a lot but our attack/finishing needs polishing. 

[The Batman]

Although it is nice to see they've improved a hell of a lot since Cotter took over, there's no doubt that the influx of foreigners in their team is improving them. It's depressing that the Northern Hemisphere sides choose to import Southern Hemisphere players to their regions for their international use i.e. Anscombe (Wales) and Maitland (Scotland) et al.

 

Before anyone says, England is a slightly different scenario due to most of the foreign players having lived in this country since a very young age.

 

 

I think the All Black influence comes from the coaching and mentality enforced from a young age. Similar to English football and the likes of Germany, Spain etc.

 

Lancaster has almost taken England as far as he can; I feel the decision to offer him a long term deal until after RWC 19 was a deal based on loyalty and progression rather than purely down to rugby. No doubt he's solidified our defence a hell of a lot but our attack/finishing needs polishing. 

 

I've been saying this for a while. His partnerships in the Centres have been more focused on defending as opposed to a more attacking force. I don't think he likes playing Tuilagi. I think at the world cup, he will play him on the wing.

 

I thought Eastmond would have had more caps by now, but Lancaster stuck with 12trees, Barritt & big Luthor last year. Don't get me wrong, Barritt and his Saracens mentality of defence defence defence is good (as shown by Saracens being excellent in recent years), but there must be some product going forward, and I personally don't think he has it. One try in 19 matches for England would confirm that.

 

The emergence of the young quick attacking style of Bath obviously caught Lancaster's eye and with the addition of Sam Burgess, who knows what England could do next year with him there, although it's still not clear whether he will be a Centre or on the back row.

[westred1]

I've been saying this for a while. His partnerships in the Centres have been more focused on defending as opposed to a more attacking force. I don't think he likes playing Tuilagi. I think at the world cup, he will play him on the wing.

 

I thought Eastmond would have had more caps by now, but Lancaster stuck with 12trees, Barritt & big Luthor last year. Don't get me wrong, Barritt and his Saracens mentality of defence defence defence is good (as shown by Saracens being excellent in recent years), but there must be some product going forward, and I personally don't think he has it. One try in 19 matches for England would confirm that.

 

The emergence of the young quick attacking style of Bath obviously caught Lancaster's eye and with the addition of Sam Burgess, who knows what England could do next year with him there, although it's still not clear whether he will be a Centre or on the back row.

 

Whilst I agree with your opinion on the centre partnerships, I disagree about Manu. I think he'll play at 13 whether he's had many minutes/countless of injuries or not. He loves the bloke. Manu is a fantastic rugby player, don't get me wrong, but his inclusion in the squad this Autumn was because he's a high profile player for England. If we were picking on form then Joseph would be at 13 all day long. Alongside Eastmond, JJ has been outstanding in the Prem this term and should be ahead of any 13 in the pecking order at present.

 

I'm really excited by the prospect of Sam Burgess in the centre! The pace he can get to from a standing start is frightening and some of the tackles he has made in the NRL (although most without arms) were huge hits. He'll give solidity, once he knows the rules, plus an opportunity to burst open the opposition's defensive line. I really hope Mike Ford sees it as an opportunity for Bath and England to utilise his strengths. If he gets put at back row, no doubt he'll excel there but it'll take him a hell of a lot longer to learn the laws in that position.

[chipdawg]

Whilst I agree with your opinion on the centre partnerships, I disagree about Manu. I think he'll play at 13 whether he's had many minutes/countless of injuries or not. He loves the bloke. Manu is a fantastic rugby player, don't get me wrong, but his inclusion in the squad this Autumn was because he's a high profile player for England. If we were picking on form then Joseph would be at 13 all day long. Alongside Eastmond, JJ has been outstanding in the Prem this term and should be ahead of any 13 in the pecking order at present.

I'm really excited by the prospect of Sam Burgess in the centre! The pace he can get to from a standing start is frightening and some of the tackles he has made in the NRL (although most without arms) were huge hits. He'll give solidity, once he knows the rules, plus an opportunity to burst open the opposition's defensive line. I really hope Mike Ford sees it as an opportunity for Bath and England to utilise his strengths. If he gets put at back row, no doubt he'll excel there but it'll take him a hell of a lot longer to learn the laws in that position.

It baffles me why he hasn't tried Joseph and Eastmond together, they play together at Bath every week. I guess the worry was that Eastmond is a wee lad and he wanted a big lump of meat to do his tackling for him, but Eastmond doesn't give an inch in defence. I've been quite impressed with him, I reckon he's moved ahead of Twelvetrees at 12. I think Eastmond and Tuilangi would be a great pairing going forward, perhaps lacking in defence

The idea that league players don't tackle with their arms- it's illegal in the 13 man code too these days. If you watch Burgess in a whole game his tackling technique is excellent, but the highlight reels are always going to concentrate on the big hits. Burgess is going to be a revelation in time, but I wonder if the RWC 2015 is going to be too soon for him. If he makes the squad I'd have him as an impact sub coming on in the last 20-25 to break the line against tiring opposition players. I also think that his big hitting style of defence will create its fair share of turnovers and penalties too. Very exciting if he can get up to speed, but agree that if that's going to happen it'll have to be at centre

[westred1]

I'm glad Ben Morgan has been given a chance from the start against Samoa (assume so as Billy Vunipola has been released to Sarries).

 

Shame about Danny Care who hasn't played his best rugby in the last couple of matches. If he delayed his pass which Serfontein intercepted then Barritt is probably under the sticks or offloads for an England score.

 

Excited for Saturday as I will be there cheering the boys on. Love a day out at Twickenham, so hopefully a evening there isn't any different!

[chipdawg]

I'm glad Ben Morgan has been given a chance from the start against Samoa (assume so as Billy Vunipola has been released to Sarries).

Shame about Danny Care who hasn't played his best rugby in the last couple of matches. If he delayed his pass which Serfontein intercepted then Barritt is probably under the sticks or offloads for an England score.

Excited for Saturday as I will be there cheering the boys on. Love a day out at Twickenham, so hopefully a evening there isn't any different!

Haskell is playing at 8 according to breakfast news, which is somewhat bizarre IMO

[westred1]

Quite bizarre. Haskell has played really well this season and has deserved his recall to the international set up but we've been down the road of putting him at 8 before and it hasn't worked because he isn't a number 8!!!

Ben Morgan was outstanding Saturday. Hope Lancaster isn't using the 'impact from the bench' tag with him.