Angola, The Way Forward?

[Nibor]

But why can't people respect what other people believe and leave them to it?

I can respect someone's right to believe in some weird old dude who lives in a cloud and makes it rain or a bearded miracle worker created by a magic angel shag. But the belief itself is ******* idiotic on every level and not deserving of respect at all.

Organised religion is a confidence trick and it always has been.

[Tins]

Just like forcing Islam?

 

I'm a devout atheist, that's the way forward.

I'm not defending forcing any religion.

I would rather no religion was forced, however I am against stopping people's beliefs.

 

Because atheists don't use their atheism as an excuse for murder, rape and child abuse.

But you are forgetting the religion also has many benefits; peace, love, generosity, hope.

[Aizoon]

I'm not defending forcing any religion.

I would rather no religion was forced, however I am against stopping people's beliefs.

 

But you are forgetting the religion also has many benefits; peace, love, generosity, hope.

 

No, I'm just remembering that peace, love, generosity and hope are all qualities possessed by atheists, as are war, hate, meanness, and despair. They don't claim that they are unique to atheists, though.

[BRISTOL86]

I can respect someone's right to believe in some weird old dude who lives in a cloud and makes it rain or a bearded miracle worker created by a magic angel shag. But the belief itself is ******* idiotic on every level and not deserving of respect at all.

Organised religion is a confidence trick and it always has been.

 

Exactly. Just ike you can respect the fact that people can choose to support any football team that they like, however you laugh at the idiocy of those who choose to follow Bristol Rovers.

[Eddie Hitler]

Not quite the point I was trying to make Edward.I suspect your response was being a little playful!

 

Partly, but there are extremist preachers in islam who call for death for homosexuals and jews.  My point is that some of the extreme sects of islam represent a danger to other people; you cannot just say live and let live.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

Partly, but there are extremist preachers in islam who call for death for homosexuals and jews.  My point is that some of the extreme sects of islam represent a danger to other people; you cannot just say live and let live.

 

There is bile preached in churches of all faiths 3 times a week and twice on Sundays espousing views on women, gays and other religions, that would be considered against the law if uttered say in a football ground and one huge religion in particular is still anti women, anti gay and still attempting to cover up abuse by it's priests at every opportunity, because it is more interested in being a big business.

[Red-Robbo]

I've read it, the following line really says all you need to know

'Religious organisations are required to apply for accreditation in Angola, which currently recognises 83, all of them Christian.'

Well you'll also have read the bit where the Angolan government spokesman said the country hadn't banned Islam and there were a number of legal mosques in Luanda and they have operated for decades.

There's more on the internet about this if you want to take more than a year old Daily Mail article as your sole source. It seems the Mail and a few other news agencies fell for a hoax report, the quotes attributed to the Angolan president are false, and all that was happening was a crackdown on illegal shanty town structures put up by immigrants to the country.

I assure you that if you go to Angola you will still find Muslims.

[chipdawg]

So in summary, we have a 37 post thread arguing about the pros and cons of something that never actually happened?

[northsomersetred]

Well you'll also have read the bit where the Angolan government spokesman said the country hadn't banned Islam and there were a number of legal mosques in Luanda and they have operated for decades.

There's more on the internet about this if you want to take more than a year old Daily Mail article as your sole source. It seems the Mail and a few other news agencies fell for a hoax report, the quotes attributed to the Angolan president are false, and all that was happening was a crackdown on illegal shanty town structures put up by immigrants to the country.

I assure you that if you go to Angola you will still find Muslims.

 

I've been and never seen any.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

So in summary, we have a 37 post thread arguing about the pros and cons of something that never actually happened?

 

At least the thread broadened on to a theme that pretty much all religions can be as narrow minded and that just always picking on Islam is hypocritical.

[22A]

People can believe what they want.

That explains why some people opt to be gas heads rather than part of the cider army.

[Red-Robbo]

I've been and never seen any.

Haha. Yes sure mate. With Thomas Cook was it....

Read the CIA Worldbook. A pretty good compendium of statistics from all the countries around the World and, as the title suggests, not published by "lefty loving paedos". Angola has a small Muslim minority, as do most other sub-Saharan coastal African nations. A legacy of when they were ports of call for Arab traders and slavers.

Now the quote you pick out saying Islam isn't one of the 83 recognised Churches is not the same as meaning Islam is banned. It probably means this Islamic "umbrella organisation" has a different tax status or level of government support than the various Christian churches. You may be aware the Scientologists recently lost a court battle in this country to have their holdings regarded as a charity. That doesn't mean the UK has "banned" Scientology.

We might conclude that Angola discriminates against Islam, but it hasn't banned it. It isn't even banned in China, an officially atheist state.

[northsomersetred]

Haha. Yes sure mate. With Thomas Cook was it....

Read the CIA Worldbook. A pretty good compendium of statistics from all the countries around the World and, as the title suggests, not published by "lefty loving paedos". Angola has a small Muslim minority, as do most other sub-Saharan coastal African nations. A legacy of when they were ports of call for Arab traders and slavers.

Now the quote you pick out saying Islam isn't one of the 83 recognised Churches is not the same as meaning Islam is banned. It probably means this Islamic "umbrella organisation" has a different tax status or level of government support than the various Christian churches. You may be aware the Scientologists recently lost a court battle in this country to have their holdings regarded as a charity. That doesn't mean the UK has "banned" Scientology.

We might conclude that Angola discriminates against Islam, but it hasn't banned it. It isn't even banned in China, an officially atheist state.

 

Global Marine Drilling Company actually.

[Eddie Hitler]

There is bile preached in churches of all faiths 3 times a week and twice on Sundays espousing views on women, gays and other religions, that would be considered against the law if uttered say in a football ground and one huge religion in particular is still anti women, anti gay and still attempting to cover up abuse by it's priests at every opportunity, because it is more interested in being a big business.

 

Do you not see a teensy shade of difference between being anti-gay and demanding that all gays be put to death?  Just a smidgen perhaps.

[Red-Robbo]

Global Marine Drilling Company actually.

Well I don't think you did your cultural tourism very thoroughly when you were there then.

There is a large domed mosque in central Luanda, off Indepencia Largo. You go past it when you get the coach into town from the Airport. If I wasn't on my phone, I could post you a picture.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

Do you not see a teensy shade of difference between being anti-gay and demanding that all gays be put to death?  Just a smidgen perhaps.

 

of course there is, it's not a competition about who or what is more wrong, both are wrong and abhorrent and we are great at telling/forcing our will on the '3rd world' where Islam is mainly preached and yet the Catholic church modernises at the pace of a blind paraplegic snail.

 

As Nibor pointed and I agree religion in the main is a con trick designed to control people and in that regard less educated people of the 3rd world have an excuse, we don't.

[northsomersetred]

Well I don't think you did your cultural tourism very thoroughly when you were there then.

There is a large domed mosque in central Luanda, off Indepencia Largo. You go past it when you get the coach into town from the Airport. If I wasn't on my phone, I could post you a picture.

 

I could show you photos of the UNITA mortars that were being lobbed over our compound perimeter but they're on old fashioned film.

[chipdawg]

At least the thread broadened on to a theme that pretty much all religions can be as narrow minded and that just always picking on Islam is hypocritical.

Agreed, though it's broadened to a theme that has been discussed ad infinitum on these boards and the only thing 'new' that has been brought to it turns out to be a fabrication

[Esmond Million's Bung]

Agreed, though it's broadened to a theme that has been discussed ad infinitum on these boards and the only thing 'new' that has been brought to it turns out to be a fabrication

 

Surely you should be happy that the OP has been proved to be a fabrication and it's not as if there were a lot of takers anyway.

[Red-Robbo]

I could show you photos of the UNITA mortars that were being lobbed over our compound perimeter but they're on old fashioned film.

 

 

It was a scary place for sure,

 

On the wider point, I don't think we can get into "banning" religions. Wouldn't that make us as bad as Islamic state? (or the Saudi government!)

 

If you were to say to me, the state should not be subsidising religious schools, I'd agree. Even though my daughters go to a CofE primary. I'd remove charity status from religions too. Maybe grant exemptions to funds needed to keep the country's lovely old Churches standing. Give the best listed status.

[northsomersetred]

Surely you should be happy that the OP has been proved to be a fabrication and it's not as if there were a lot of takers anyway.

 

It's not a fabrication it may not be an 'official government' policy but Islam is not recognised, go and do your research

 

Religious organisations are required to apply for legal recognition in Angola, which currently sanctions 83, all of them Christian. Last month the justice ministry rejected the applications of 194 organisations, including one from the Islamic community.

Under Angolan law, a religious group needs more than 100,000 members and to be present in 12 of the 18 provinces to gain legal status, giving them the right to construct schools and places of worship. There are only an estimated 90,000 Muslims among Angola's population of about 18 million.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

It was a scary place for sure,

 

On the wider point, I don't think we can get into "banning" religions. Wouldn't that make us as bad as Islamic state? (or the Saudi government!)

 

If you were to say to me, the state should not be subsidising religious schools, I'd agree. Even though my daughters go to a CofE primary. I'd remove charity status from religions too. Maybe grant exemptions to funds needed to keep the country's lovely old Churches standing. Give the best listed status.

 

in France in 1905 the church and state were separated, the church no longer publicly get's involved in politics and the pay off is that the state pays for the upkeep of the church, no thermometers outside for the church roof repair that doesn't ever move.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

It's not a fabrication it may not be an 'official government' policy but Islam is not recognised, go and do your research

 

Religious organisations are required to apply for legal recognition in Angola, which currently sanctions 83, all of them Christian. Last month the justice ministry rejected the applications of 194 organisations, including one from the Islamic community.

Under Angolan law, a religious group needs more than 100,000 members and to be present in 12 of the 18 provinces to gain legal status, giving them the right to construct schools and places of worship. There are only an estimated 90,000 Muslims among Angola's population of about 18 million.

 

 of course it's a fabrication the piece sets out to say that the government have 'banned' Islam when clearly they haven't, they are just not legally recognised because they don't have 100,000 members to meet the terms of that law.

 

So it's not legally recognised, so when we can expect the demolition of the Mosque that RR describes, that might indicate a banning.

[chipdawg]

Surely you should be happy that the OP has been proved to be a fabrication and it's not as if there were a lot of takers anyway.

It's not really about whether I'm happy about it or not, it's just that in retrospect this whole thread seems pointless given the regularity with which threads on this theme come along (though obviously I'm now contributing to the pointlessness of it!). I guess I now know the location of the main mosque in Luanda so in some respects I've gained something

[Aizoon]

So in summary, we have a 37 post thread arguing about the pros and cons of something that never actually happened?

Like the Marlon Pack wonder goal that wasn't? Sorry, wrong forum

[Slacker]

I can respect someone's right to believe in some weird old dude who lives in a cloud and makes it rain or a bearded miracle worker created by a magic angel shag. But the belief itself is ******* idiotic on every level and not deserving of respect at all.

Organised religion is a confidenbce trick and it always has been.

I totally agree,but if they just enjoyed their religion and allowed other people to enjoy their chosen religion in peace,then in my opinion they would be no worse than "grown ups" who are getting excited about the New Star Wars film coming out.

[Red-Robbo]

in France in 1905 the church and state were separated, the church no longer publicly get's involved in politics and the pay off is that the state pays for the upkeep of the church, no thermometers outside for the church roof repair that doesn't ever move.

 

Sensible froggies.  

 

Thing is, I'm not sure I want my tax pounds going towards the repair of the boiler at Easton's mosque, or replacing roof tiles at that red-brick Mormon monstrosity on the Wells Road.

 

I only want the beautiful historic churches and cathedrals, part of our island's heritage, to benefit. 

[WTFiGO!?!]

Sensible froggies.  

 

Thing is, I'm not sure I want my tax pounds going towards the repair of the boiler at Easton's mosque, or replacing roof tiles at that red-brick Mormon monstrosity on the Wells Road.

 

I only want the beautiful historic churches and cathedrals, part of our island's heritage, to benefit.

Better vote UKIP then.

[Red-Robbo]

Better vote UKIP then.

 

I think not. They'd probably sell them to meet their amazing up spending/cut taxes pledges.

[WTFiGO!?!]

I can respect someone's right to believe in some weird old dude who lives in a cloud and makes it rain or a bearded miracle worker created by a magic angel shag. But the belief itself is ******* idiotic on every level and not deserving of respect at all.

Organised religion is a confidence trick and it always has been.

As we've discussed before, if beyond doubt that belief in 'the old dude who lives in a cloud' is idiotic and not deserving of respect at all then otherwise intelligent doctors, professors and even bloody scientists believing it worries me more.

I'm agnostic incidentally, least bloody arrogant of the lot!