Malago Posted February 11, 2015 Report Share Posted February 11, 2015 Buried in the NLBR thread is a copy of the 1938/39Third Division South table which shows the sags in bottom place. I've often wondered whether reelection existed back then and it did. It started in 1924 and carried on until 1986. For those young enough not remember this process, the team that finished bottom of the football league, or until 1958, bottom of leagues three North and South, had to apply for reelection in competition with non league sides who could apply to stand. Normally it was a shoe in but occasionally league sides lost out, Workington, Barrow and Southport being examples of clubs that lost their league status in this way. Having done a bit of research it would seem that the sags were subject to this process in 1939. Presumably the voting was held during the summer of 1939 before the outbreak of war, ready for the start of the 39/40 season which of course didn't happen. They were obviously successful in their attempt to gain reelection, but it does mean that technically they left the Football League in 1939, as well as actually in 2014. The question that interests me is, did we vote for the sags to be reelected? It would be nice to know if they had to come cap in hand to us for our vote and whether we were soft enough to support them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cityexile Posted February 11, 2015 Report Share Posted February 11, 2015 Do not remotely know the answer to that question. Might be my memory playing tricks, but was it not the whole of the bottom four from league 4 that had to apply for re-selection? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malago Posted February 11, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 11, 2015 Do not remotely know the answer to that question. Might be my memory playing tricks, but was it not the whole of the bottom four from league 4 that had to apply for re-selection? That rings a bell. Whether that applied in the days of leagues North and South I wouldn't have a scobby. There's some interesting clubs on the list though. Norwich 4 times, Cardiff, Brighton, Walsall 5 times. Pleased to say we're not on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WTFiGO!?! Posted February 12, 2015 Report Share Posted February 12, 2015 Absolutely humdinger of a question. Red Goblin may know (or be enthusiastic to find out), I'll ask him. At the going down of the sun.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1960maaan Posted February 12, 2015 Report Share Posted February 12, 2015 I found this which says that it wasn't one team one vote for those clubs outside div 1 & 2. Not definitive as I haven't found which clubs got to vote on it. Below is a brief season-by-season history of how all clubs gained admission to the Football League with all known results of the annual vote for places in the Football League. The method of voting varied, but from the advent of the Third Division in the early 1920s the Full Members (clubs in Division One and Two) had one vote per available place, whilst the Associate Members (those in Division Three - and Division Four from 1958) shared a very small number of votes. 1939North Hartlepools FL 38 re-elected to Division Three (North) Accrington Stanley FL 29 re-elected to Division Three (North) South Liverpool LC 5 S****horpe & L Utd ML 4 Burton Town ML 0 Wigan Athletic CL 0South Bristol Rovers FL 45 re-elected to Division Three (South) Walsall FL 36 re-elected to Division Three (South) Gillingham SL 15 Chelmsford City SL 1 Colchester United SL 1 http://www.nonleaguematters.co.uk/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_attachment;postatt_id=3506 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrahamC Posted February 12, 2015 Report Share Posted February 12, 2015 There was no vote, that season's fixtures were not completed because of war so when football resumed afterwards everyone stayed where they were in terms of the division they were in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cidered abroad Posted February 12, 2015 Report Share Posted February 12, 2015 Re-elected at end of 1938-39 season. The 1939-1940 season was suspended due to outbreak of war. As for City voting for them, City were in same league, Div 3 South, so only associate members of Football League and may not have had as vote. Not sure about which 3rd div clubs did/did not have the vote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cidered abroad Posted February 12, 2015 Report Share Posted February 12, 2015 That rings a bell. Whether that applied in the days of leagues North and South I wouldn't have a scobby. There's some interesting clubs on the list though. Norwich 4 times, Cardiff, Brighton, Walsall 5 times. Pleased to say we're not on it. City have never suffered the indignity of applying for reelection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingswood Robin Posted February 12, 2015 Report Share Posted February 12, 2015 The re-election business was a bit murky, I much prefer straightforward relegation to the conference. In 1960 Gateshead finished 3rd from bottom in the 3rd Division North. They weren't re-elected, but Oldham Athletic and Hartlepools United who finished below them, were allowed to stay in the league. Gateshead finished an average 9th place over 21 3rd division north seasons so could hardly be called strugglers. They were replaced by Peterborough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KernowRed Posted February 12, 2015 Report Share Posted February 12, 2015 1939North Hartlepools FL 38 re-elected to Division Three (North) Accrington Stanley FL 29 re-elected to Division Three (North) South Liverpool LC 5 S****horpe & L Utd ML 4 Burton Town ML 0 Wigan Athletic CL 0South Bristol Rovers FL 45 re-elected to Division Three (South) Walsall FL 36 re-elected to Division Three (South) Gillingham SL 15 Chelmsford City SL 1 Colchester United SL 1 The Western Daily Press 6 June 1939 had a report that Bristol Rovers were re-elected, as above post, and the Football League also noted that the Southern and Northern sections were determined to keep the doors to the botom of the Third Division tightly closed. They also passed a rule at the same meeting for compulsory numbers on shirts, which upto to then was at the discretion of the club. Derby County had put a proposal for 4 up and 4 down scheme, which they had called for since 1910, but was turned down by 28 votes to 21. The following season had football played on a regional theme and the groups were listed on 2 October 1939 as South West- Newport, Plymouth, Swansea, Bristol City, Bristol Rovers, Cardiff, Swindon and Torquay. Exeter were not included. A fixture list was drawn up on 6 Oct 1939 and the opening games were - Bristol City v Cardiff and Swansea v Bristol Rovers to be played 21 Oct 1939. Results Bristol City 1 [Williams] Cardiff 1 [Corkill] Swansea 0 Rover 0 Funningly, the Rovers Home games were at Aston Gate and only games against Swindon, City, Cardiff and Newport were at Eastville. Both teams were also in the Western and Southern Leagues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'Orns Posted February 12, 2015 Report Share Posted February 12, 2015 Do not remotely know the answer to that question. Might be my memory playing tricks, but was it not the whole of the bottom four from league 4 that had to apply for re-selection? That's how I remember it.....Crewe presumably used the same application as the previous year at one point, they always seemed to be bottom four in the early 80s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aizoon Posted February 12, 2015 Report Share Posted February 12, 2015 It was the 4 bottom teams in 3N and 3S that had to apply for reelection. They usually got it unless there was an outstanding non league candidate or the club applying was in an awkward location like Workington or Barrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
22A Posted February 12, 2015 Report Share Posted February 12, 2015 When Division 4 was formed in 1958 the entire bottom 4 had to reapply for re election at the League's AGM (usually held first Friday of June). Barrow had two teams beneath them when they were voted out. The 44 clubs in the top two divisions had one vote each whilst the 48 clubs in the lower two divisions had four votes between them. Before 1958 the third division was regional and (I believe) it was only the bottom team in Div 3 N and Div 3 S who had to reapply. Barnsley & gas were the bottom 2, but both were re elected. The 1939-40 season actually started and on Saturday 2nd September, City's record was P3 W1 D1 L1 F5 A5. We lost the first game at home then had two away games where we picked up points. Until automatic promotion to the league came along, any strong non league club could apply for election to the league. When Hereford applied and sought support, City publicly stated they would vote for Hereford unless Newport had to apply to stay in the league. Barrow is at the end of a 60 mile long cul de sac, so no surprise they went out. I wa surprised that Southport lost their place as it's Merseyside's equivalent to W-S-M. Back to the point though. It's a sad fact that in WW2 some Rovers fans would have met an untimely death knowing they supported the worst team in the league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beaverface Posted February 12, 2015 Report Share Posted February 12, 2015 I know that there's been pictures of Ashton Gate with the stadium and surrounding areas being used for various events during wartime, but does anybody know if the same things happened over at Eastville Stadium, or was events only ever held our side of the town? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cidered abroad Posted February 12, 2015 Report Share Posted February 12, 2015 I know that there's been pictures of Ashton Gate with the stadium and surrounding areas being used for various events during wartime, but does anybody know if the same things happened over at Eastville Stadium, or was events only ever held our side of the town? Don't know about wartime but in 1950's the Evil Post annual firework display. I was going to say the Harlem Globetrotters but I saw them at the Memorial. Ashton Gate had floodlit cricket, rugby. In 1982 Billy Graham crusade. My wife dragged me along and when they invited those of us in the stands on to the pitch, I went down. When I got there, a steward tried to show me where to go and seemed quite taken aback when I ignored him and went to the goalmouth area at the Covered End for my bit of holy inspiration! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Port Said Red Posted February 12, 2015 Report Share Posted February 12, 2015 From a financial point of view I am sure we would have voted to save the Rovers from relegation. A couple of bumper gates and very little travelling costs, it would have made a lot of sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aizoon Posted February 12, 2015 Report Share Posted February 12, 2015 From a financial point of view I am sure we would have voted to save the Rovers from relegation. A couple of bumper gates and very little travelling costs, it would have made a lot of sense. And, in reverse, that's why Workington and Barrow got the chop. Plymouth and Carlisle would probably have suffered the same fate had they finished in the bottom four. In the days of rail travel Crewe were, of course, perfectly safe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beaverface Posted February 12, 2015 Report Share Posted February 12, 2015 From a financial point of view I am sure we would have voted to save the Rovers from relegation. A couple of bumper gates and very little travelling costs, it would have made a lot of sense. I'm also assuming there wasn't quite the same level of hatred back then either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Port Said Red Posted February 12, 2015 Report Share Posted February 12, 2015 I'm also assuming there wasn't quite the same level of hatred back then either. That's true, it was quite common for fans to go to both teams home games even in my youngest day (mid 60's), especially if the opposition was a big draw, away travel was not so common for the average supporter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malago Posted February 12, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 12, 2015 And, in reverse, that's why Workington and Barrow got the chop. Plymouth and Carlisle would probably have suffered the same fate had they finished in the bottom four. In the days of rail travel Crewe were, of course, perfectly safe Plymouth avoided the ignominy of re election. Carlisle were actually elected via the system in 1928, replacing Durham City, and were re elected once. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ashton_fan Posted February 12, 2015 Report Share Posted February 12, 2015 According to Wikipedia the 1939-40 season started but only 3 games were played at which point it was abandoned due to the war: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1939%E2%80%9340_Football_League At the time it was stopped Rovers were second from bottom with only one point from their opening three matches. If it hadn't been for the war they may have dropped out of the league! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Port Said Red Posted February 12, 2015 Report Share Posted February 12, 2015 According to Wikipedia the 1939-40 season started but only 3 games were played at which point it was abandoned due to the war: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1939%E2%80%9340_Football_League At the time it was stopped Rovers were second from bottom with only one point from their opening three matches. If it hadn't been for the war they may have dropped out of the league! Not sure about that, as others have said, re-election was very much on the old boys network. There were teams in the 60's and 70's who seemed to scrape through it year after year, it certainly didn't work on a three strikes and your out type basis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cityexile Posted February 12, 2015 Report Share Posted February 12, 2015 I found this which says that it wasn't one team one vote for those clubs outside div 1 & 2. Not definitive as I haven't found which clubs got to vote on it. Below is a brief season-by-season history of how all clubs gained admission to the Football League with all known results of the annual vote for places in the Football League. The method of voting varied, but from the advent of the Third Division in the early 1920s the Full Members (clubs in Division One and Two) had one vote per available place, whilst the Associate Members (those in Division Three - and Division Four from 1958) shared a very small number of votes.1939North Hartlepools FL 38 re-elected to Division Three (North) Accrington Stanley FL 29 re-elected to Division Three (North) South Liverpool LC 5 S****horpe & L Utd ML 4 Burton Town ML 0 Wigan Athletic CL 0South Bristol Rovers FL 45 re-elected to Division Three (South) Walsall FL 36 re-elected to Division Three (South) Gillingham SL 15 Chelmsford City SL 1 Colchester United SL 1http://www.nonleaguematters.co.uk/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_attachment;postatt_id=3506 Logically, assuming everyone had two votes, the maximum possible was 48 votes. Rovers 'won' therefore 45-3. We must be told who the 3 were! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnclosureSurge Posted February 12, 2015 Report Share Posted February 12, 2015 Yep, they were 'relegated' alright. Or would have been in modern-day terms if there really was a trapdoor. Re-election it was, however, unfortunately, largely because WWII got in the way: when the football resumed the FA must have had an attack of amnesia and struggled to remember what they were doing in '39... Here it is in black & white: https://thenatchwall.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/scan0038.jpg (Well, from a biased City perspective, anyway!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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