Ultra's? What's In A Name?

[Harry]

Now I probably got some other group pissed off with me because I said fruit! There's a different group that gets pissed off at you in this country for everything you're not supposed to say.

Can't say fruit, can't say faggot, can't say queer, can't say nancy boy, can't say pansy.  Can't say n**ger, boogie, jig, jigaboo, skinhead, junglebunny, mouly, moulinyan or schwartze.  Can't say yid, hebe, zebe, kyke, moche, daygo, guinea, wop, ginzo, greaser, greaseball, spic, beaner, oye, tiger, pyar, mick, dunkey, turkey, limey, frog, squarehead, kraut, gerry, hun, chink, jap, nip, slope, slopehead, zip, zipperhead, gook, there is absolutely nothing wrong, there is absolutely nothing wrong with any of those words, IN and OF themselves.  They are ONLY words.  It's the context that counts. It's the user, it's the intention behind the words that make them good or bad, the words are completely neutral, the words are innocent.

I get tired of people talking about bad words and bad language - bulls**t, it's the CONTEXT that makes them good or bad.  The CONTEXT that makes them good or bad.

 

For instance - you take the word '*Ni*ger'. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the word 'Ni*ger'-  IN and OF itself - it's the racist a*hole who's using it that you ought to be concerned about.  We don't care when Richard Pryor or Eddie Murphy say it?  Why? Cuz we know they're not racists! They're niggers! CONTEXT! Context - we don't mind their context because we know that they're black. Hey, I know I'm a whitey, the blue-eyed devil paddio, fade grey boy honkey mutha fu**a myself - don't bother my ass!!

They're only words.  You can't be afraid of words that speak the truth, even if it's an unpleasant truth, like the fact that there's a bigot and a racist in every living room, on every street corner in this country. I don't like words that hide the truth, I don't like words that conceal reality.  I don't like euphemisms, or euphemistic language, and American English is loaded with euphemisms.  Coz Americans have a lot of trouble dealing with REALITY.  They have trouble facing the truth.  So they invent a kind of 'soft' language, to protect themselves from it.  And it gets worse, with every generation, for some reason it just keeps getting worse.  I'll give you an example of that - there's a condition in combat - most people know about it - it's when a fighting person's nervous system has been stressed to it's absolute peak and maximum, can't take any more input - the nervous system has either snapped or is about to snap.  In the 1st World War, that condition was called "Shell Shock".  Simple, honest, direct language.  2 syllables - Shell Shock.  Almost sounds like the guns themselves.  That was 100 years ago.  Then a whole generation went by, and the 2nd World War came along, the very same combat condition was called "Battle Fatigue". 4 syllables now - takes a little longer to say, doesn't seem to hurt as much, fatigue is a nicer word than shock! "Shell Shock"!! battle fatigue?

Then we had the war in Korea, 1950, Madison Avenue was riding high by that time, and the very same combat condition was called "Operational Exhaustion"!!

Hey, we're up to 8 syllables now - and the humanity has been squeezed completely out of the phrase, it's totally sterile now.  "Operational Exhaustion"?  Sounds like something that might happen to your car!

Then of course came the war in Vietnam, which has only been over for 36 years, and thanks to the lies and deceit surrounding that war, I guess it's no surprise that the same very condition was called "Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder".

Still 8 syllables - but we've added a hyphon!!!

 

And the pain is completely buried under jargon. Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder!!!

 

I'll let you judge for yourself how I felt about Bristol Sport's Q & A!

[Harry]

Just in case!

 

[Slacker]

This could get messy!

[NickJ]

I'll let you judge for yourself how I felt about Bristol Sport's Q & A!

First of all you've obviously had a good night mate whereas I'm just getting up - but I think I know how you feel and in full agreement!

Basically for beginners David Lloyd has changed the excuse. Whereas he previously said the BCFC Ultras flag was unacceptable due to links with right wing racism and fascism, subsequently changed as actually meaning being associated with old school hooliganism and violence:

http://www.otib.co.uk/index.php?/topic/167383-ultras/page-1#entry2177894

he now says that "the club" do not of course necessarily believe that Ultras are at all like that, but other people might, that's why the Ultras Flag is banned. So that's the third different explanation, but anyway......

.....we cannot have a flag because other people might have inaccurate perceptions of the word "Ultras".

It's even dafter than his initial stance on the issue.

[ten minutes of rough]

Some obviously care more/ regarding a flag than the real issues with the club. Instead of attacking the policies why don't support the club in getting promotion, the stadium, and all the other factors that will make our club a football club that will be a force.

All too often we see the far right trying to unsettle communities, this is just another example, in the context of things, it is of no importance to the majority of City fans, so stop stirring and get behind the club or find another club that embraces your outdated insidious views.

[Barrs Court Red]

Some obviously care more/ regarding a flag than the real issues with the club. Instead of attacking the policies why don't support the club in getting promotion, the stadium, and all the other factors that will make our club a football club that will be a force.

All too often we see the far right trying to unsettle communities, this is just another example, in the context of things, it is of no importance to the majority of City fans, so stop stirring and get behind the club or find another club that embraces your outdated insidious views.

Wow you seem to remain in perpetual ignorance about everything you seem to comment on.

This has nothing to do with the far right, ISIS or what ever other group you want to convince yourself are involved in order to further elevate your own personal level of outrage.

Take a day off, put the Sunday Mail down and leave the house. You might learn something.

[Dollymarie]

Even I'm a tad scared that people are currently blinded by our league position and have therefore stop worrying about the seemingly dangerous path our club is currently going down in terms of the type of fan it wants to see at our club.

There is space for everyone, the club would do very well to remember that, as its that type of fan that would still turn up and support the club when we aren't doing so well on the pitch.

[Bristol Rob]

Now I probably got some other group pissed off with me because I said fruit! There's a different group that gets pissed off at you in this country for everything you're not supposed to say.

Can't say fruit, can't say faggot, can't say queer, can't say nancy boy, can't say pansy. Can't say n**ger, boogie, jig, jigaboo, skinhead, junglebunny, mouly, moulinyan or schwartze. Can't say yid, hebe, zebe, kyke, moche, daygo, guinea, wop, ginzo, greaser, greaseball, spic, beaner, oye, tiger, pyar, mick, dunkey, turkey, limey, frog, squarehead, kraut, gerry, hun, chink, jap, nip, slope, slopehead, zip, zipperhead, gook, there is absolutely nothing wrong, there is absolutely nothing wrong with any of those words, IN and OF themselves. They are ONLY words. It's the context that counts. It's the user, it's the intention behind the words that make them good or bad, the words are completely neutral, the words are innocent.

I get tired of people talking about bad words and bad language - bulls**t, it's the CONTEXT that makes them good or bad. The CONTEXT that makes them good or bad.

For instance - you take the word '*Ni*ger'. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the word 'Ni*ger'- IN and OF itself - it's the racist a*hole who's using it that you ought to be concerned about. We don't care when Richard Pryor or Eddie Murphy say it? Why? Cuz we know they're not racists! They're niggers! CONTEXT! Context - we don't mind their context because we know that they're black. Hey, I know I'm a whitey, the blue-eyed devil paddio, fade grey boy honkey mutha fu**a myself - don't bother my ass!!

They're only words. You can't be afraid of words that speak the truth, even if it's an unpleasant truth, like the fact that there's a bigot and a racist in every living room, on every street corner in this country. I don't like words that hide the truth, I don't like words that conceal reality. I don't like euphemisms, or euphemistic language, and American English is loaded with euphemisms. Coz Americans have a lot of trouble dealing with REALITY. They have trouble facing the truth. So they invent a kind of 'soft' language, to protect themselves from it. And it gets worse, with every generation, for some reason it just keeps getting worse. I'll give you an example of that - there's a condition in combat - most people know about it - it's when a fighting person's nervous system has been stressed to it's absolute peak and maximum, can't take any more input - the nervous system has either snapped or is about to snap. In the 1st World War, that condition was called "Shell Shock". Simple, honest, direct language. 2 syllables - Shell Shock. Almost sounds like the guns themselves. That was 100 years ago. Then a whole generation went by, and the 2nd World War came along, the very same combat condition was called "Battle Fatigue". 4 syllables now - takes a little longer to say, doesn't seem to hurt as much, fatigue is a nicer word than shock! "Shell Shock"!! battle fatigue?

Then we had the war in Korea, 1950, Madison Avenue was riding high by that time, and the very same combat condition was called "Operational Exhaustion"!!

Hey, we're up to 8 syllables now - and the humanity has been squeezed completely out of the phrase, it's totally sterile now. "Operational Exhaustion"? Sounds like something that might happen to your car!

Then of course came the war in Vietnam, which has only been over for 36 years, and thanks to the lies and deceit surrounding that war, I guess it's no surprise that the same very condition was called "Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder".

Still 8 syllables - but we've added a hyphon!!!

And the pain is completely buried under jargon. Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder!!!

I'll let you judge for yourself how I felt about Bristol Sport's Q & A!

Shut it, honkey.

[Red-Robbo]

Even I'm a tad scared that people are currently blinded by our league position and have therefore stop worrying about the seemingly dangerous path our club is currently going down in terms of the type of fan it wants to see at our club.

There is space for everyone, the club would do very well to remember that, as its that type of fan that would still turn up and support the club when we aren't doing so well on the pitch.

And doesn't that sum it all up.

If the term "ultra" was being used at AG in a glorifying football violence sense or for bigging up political extremism then the club might have half a leg to stand on, but it wasn't. The context is "ultra loyal supporter".

A PR blunder, I'm disappointed the club haven't corrected.

[CotswoldRed]

Some obviously care more/ regarding a flag than the real issues with the club. Instead of attacking the policies why don't support the club in getting promotion, the stadium, and all the other factors that will make our club a football club that will be a force.

All too often we see the far right trying to unsettle communities, this is just another example, in the context of things, it is of no importance to the majority of City fans, so stop stirring and get behind the club or find another club that embraces your outdated insidious views.

The subtext reads:

Let the club do what it wants while we enjoy the football on the field.

That's the approach most couch potatoes have with politics, and the politicians mop up.

[The Dolman Pragmatist]

Ultra's? What's in an apostrophe?

[ten minutes of rough]

Wow you seem to remain in perpetual ignorance about everything you seem to comment on.

This has nothing to do with the far right, ISIS or what ever other group you want to convince yourself are involved in order to further elevate your own personal level of outrage.

Take a day off, put the Sunday Mail down and leave the house. You might learn something.

Not very original, sure I challenged you to leave the house recently as you spend far too much time on here , however even for you to bracket me with ISIS, and God forbid the Mail is an extreme leap

Stop faffing about, we all know what the term Ulta means in football terms, you and yours don't even have the bottle to be up front about it, like the UKIP joke party that have to squirm lie and dodge actually spitting out what they truly stand for.

[Redrobbin]

Now I probably got some other group pissed off with me because I said fruit! There's a different group that gets pissed off at you in this country for everything you're not supposed to say.

Can't say fruit, can't say faggot, can't say queer, can't say nancy boy, can't say pansy.  Can't say n**ger, boogie, jig, jigaboo, skinhead, junglebunny, mouly, moulinyan or schwartze.  Can't say yid, hebe, zebe, kyke, moche, daygo, guinea, wop, ginzo, greaser, greaseball, spic, beaner, oye, tiger, pyar, mick, dunkey, turkey, limey, frog, squarehead, kraut, gerry, hun, chink, jap, nip, slope, slopehead, zip, zipperhead, gook, there is absolutely nothing wrong, there is absolutely nothing wrong with any of those words, IN and OF themselves.  They are ONLY words.  It's the context that counts. It's the user, it's the intention behind the words that make them good or bad, the words are completely neutral, the words are innocent.

I get tired of people talking about bad words and bad language - bulls**t, it's the CONTEXT that makes them good or bad.  The CONTEXT that makes them good or bad.

 

For instance - you take the word '*Ni*ger'. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the word 'Ni*ger'-  IN and OF itself - it's the racist a*hole who's using it that you ought to be concerned about.  We don't care when Richard Pryor or Eddie Murphy say it?  Why? Cuz we know they're not racists! They're niggers! CONTEXT! Context - we don't mind their context because we know that they're black. Hey, I know I'm a whitey, the blue-eyed devil paddio, fade grey boy honkey mutha fu**a myself - don't bother my ass!!

They're only words.  You can't be afraid of words that speak the truth, even if it's an unpleasant truth, like the fact that there's a bigot and a racist in every living room, on every street corner in this country. I don't like words that hide the truth, I don't like words that conceal reality.  I don't like euphemisms, or euphemistic language, and American English is loaded with euphemisms.  Coz Americans have a lot of trouble dealing with REALITY.  They have trouble facing the truth.  So they invent a kind of 'soft' language, to protect themselves from it.  And it gets worse, with every generation, for some reason it just keeps getting worse.  I'll give you an example of that - there's a condition in combat - most people know about it - it's when a fighting person's nervous system has been stressed to it's absolute peak and maximum, can't take any more input - the nervous system has either snapped or is about to snap.  In the 1st World War, that condition was called "Shell Shock".  Simple, honest, direct language.  2 syllables - Shell Shock.  Almost sounds like the guns themselves.  That was 100 years ago.  Then a whole generation went by, and the 2nd World War came along, the very same combat condition was called "Battle Fatigue". 4 syllables now - takes a little longer to say, doesn't seem to hurt as much, fatigue is a nicer word than shock! "Shell Shock"!! battle fatigue?

Then we had the war in Korea, 1950, Madison Avenue was riding high by that time, and the very same combat condition was called "Operational Exhaustion"!!

Hey, we're up to 8 syllables now - and the humanity has been squeezed completely out of the phrase, it's totally sterile now.  "Operational Exhaustion"?  Sounds like something that might happen to your car!

Then of course came the war in Vietnam, which has only been over for 36 years, and thanks to the lies and deceit surrounding that war, I guess it's no surprise that the same very condition was called "Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder".

Still 8 syllables - but we've added a hyphon!!!

 

And the pain is completely buried under jargon. Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder!!!

 

I'll let you judge for yourself how I felt about Bristol Sport's Q & A!

Sorry Harry, but you do know freedom of speech is and always has been a myth, right?

[Port Said Red]

Some obviously care more/ regarding a flag than the real issues with the club. Instead of attacking the policies why don't support the club in getting promotion, the stadium, and all the other factors that will make our club a football club that will be a force.

All too often we see the far right trying to unsettle communities, this is just another example, in the context of things, it is of no importance to the majority of City fans, so stop stirring and get behind the club or find another club that embraces your outdated insidious views.

 

 

Wow you seem to remain in perpetual ignorance about everything you seem to comment on.

This has nothing to do with the far right, ISIS or what ever other group you want to convince yourself are involved in order to further elevate your own personal level of outrage.

Take a day off, put the Sunday Mail down and leave the house. You might learn something.

And this is how these threads go every time. A few people get on their high horse about flags noise etc and anyone who makes a point about how little it matters gets shouted down. Then we have the self proclaimed UKIP voter talking about "inclusiveness" what irony!. And as an additional point, does this inclusivity extend to the CSF and those who think it's part of the day to cause trouble?

In another thread last night I was being told that the reason kids don't come to football is because "it's boring as shite"! and that a group of kids who attended recently were "only interested in the flares and aggro with the stewards". When I suggested that perhaps they weren't the kids we should be attracting, I was told to "stop bleating and accept the facts" 

If these are the facts (which I seriously doubt) then maybe this explains why "flags and Noise" are so important to a group of people, they have little interest in what is happening on the pitch, therefore Bristol Sport who have the ultimate interest in success will always be at loggerheads with that group.

 

My main criticism of Bristol Sport, and I discussed this in a personal chat with DL at MK, is that some of the moves they have made recently have played into this groups hands, and they are dragging in some people who have some sympathy with individual causes. This has parallels in the political arena  as well although I would doubt whether there is any deliberate manipulation going on here, it does appear that a very small minority are gaining supporters due to this.

[Dollymarie]

Not very original, sure I challenged you to leave the house recently as you spend far too much time on here , however even for you to bracket me with ISIS, and God forbid the Mail is an extreme leap

Stop faffing about, we all know what the term Ulta means in football terms, you and yours don't even have the bottle to be up front about it, like the UKIP joke party that have to squirm lie and dodge actually spitting out what they truly stand for.

Go and Google Crystal Palace Ultras, and then tell me that the word ultra in this country has the same connotations

[ten minutes of rough]

Go and Google Crystal Palace Ultras, and then tell me that the word ultra in this country has the same connotations

 

As in coin throwing? 

[ten minutes of rough]

And this is how these threads go every time. A few people get on their high horse about flags noise etc and anyone who makes a point about how little it matters gets shouted down. Then we have the self proclaimed UKIP voter talking about "inclusiveness" what irony!. And as an additional point, does this inclusivity extend to the CSF and those who think it's part of the day to cause trouble?

In another thread last night I was being told that the reason kids don't come to football is because "it's boring as shite"! and that a group of kids who attended recently were "only interested in the flares and aggro with the stewards". When I suggested that perhaps they weren't the kids we should be attracting, I was told to "stop bleating and accept the facts" 

If these are the facts (which I seriously doubt) then maybe this explains why "flags and Noise" are so important to a group of people, they have little interest in what is happening on the pitch, therefore Bristol Sport who have the ultimate interest in success will always be at loggerheads with that group.

 

My main criticism of Bristol Sport, and I discussed this in a personal chat with DL at MK, is that some of the moves they have made recently have played into this groups hands, and they are dragging in some people who have some sympathy with individual causes. This has parallels in the political arena  as well although I would doubt whether there is any deliberate manipulation going on here, it does appear that a very small minority are gaining supporters due to this.

Well put, however I am not so sure that politics are not an issue here, especially as one on here wit implores us to Vote UKIP in his sig, whilst condemning those that don't like what Ultra stands for in football. 

[Port Said Red]

Even I'm a tad scared that people are currently blinded by our league position and have therefore stop worrying about the seemingly dangerous path our club is currently going down in terms of the type of fan it wants to see at our club.

There is space for everyone, the club would do very well to remember that, as its that type of fan that would still turn up and support the club when we aren't doing so well on the pitch.

I'm sorry Dolly I realise that you are in a difficult position and I don't want to make it any harder but, I feel that in your position we need to know if your comments are your individual views or whether you are speaking on behalf of the ST as I feel your position as moderator gives more weight to your comments. I haven't seen the ST website so I don't know if their position has been clarified yet, I guess I have to await Blagdon Reds write up.

[phantom]

As in coin throwing?

Absolutely ridiculous comment, says more about you and your inability to listen to what is being pointed out

[Bar BS3]

First of all you've obviously had a good night mate whereas I'm just getting up - but I think I know how you feel and in full agreement!

Basically for beginners David Lloyd has changed the excuse. Whereas he previously said the BCFC Ultras flag was unacceptable due to links with right wing racism and fascism, subsequently changed as actually meaning being associated with old school hooliganism and violence:

http://www.otib.co.uk/index.php?/topic/167383-ultras/page-1#entry2177894

he now says that "the club" do not of course necessarily believe that Ultras are at all like that, but other people might, that's why the Ultras Flag is banned. So that's the third different explanation, but anyway......

.....we cannot have a flag because other people might have inaccurate perceptions of the word "Ultras".

It's even dafter than his initial stance on the issue.

So you think that it would be good to have a big flag with "KKK" and a burning cross on it..?

[ten minutes of rough]

Absolutely ridiculous comment, says more about you and your inability to listen to what is being pointed out

Here we go, are you actually lecturing me?

 

Please don'y put up Palace as a fan base I should look to as a good example, have you dropped in on their fans forums, ever? 

 

All I ask for is a bit of clarity, as I say Utlra has nothing to do with being an Ultra good / nice supporter, but it does say a lot about the negative side of football support.

 

The rather poor Palace example sort of backs up what I am saying.

[Blagdon red]

I'm sorry Dolly I realise that you are in a difficult position and I don't want to make it any harder but, I feel that in your position we need to know if your comments are your individual views or whether you are speaking on behalf of the ST as I feel your position as moderator gives more weight to your comments. I haven't seen the ST website so I don't know if their position has been clarified yet, I guess I have to await Blagdon Reds write up.

Be my guest: Supporters Club & Trust website

[Guest]

It appears that the 'Ultra' movement is a movement for the 'ultra' fan - a fan that believes they are more passionate about footy than other fans (something that manifests itself as 'We sing louder, wave our flags more, therefore we are better fans than you attitude'): 

http://www.ultrasuk.co.uk/about

 

If that floats your boat, then so be it.

 

And here lies the problem, you are trying to set yourselves up as being above the 'average' fan - an average fan who still pays the same money as the ultras and probably exist in greater numbers. The 'average' fan will get annoyed by some 'ultra' telling them how they should support the club, when they are told that they are not 'supporters' because they aren't doing what ultras are doing etc. If you believe this situation doesn't exist, then I suggest you look closer at some of the comments made on this subject.

 

The corporate types take notice because it's the 'average' fan that brings in more money.

 

I have nothing against passion but I do get a little pissed off by people who believe they are the 'model' supporter but on scratching the surface, you find someone who just likes complaining that there every whim is not being catered for. No problem with 'Ultras' flying their flags, jumping about, shouting etc., but lay off the 'we are better fans than you attitude'.

 

As to passion, some can't temper it and that is what led to some of the problems in the 70s - 90s. For those who want those days back, forget it, it's not going to happen.

[WTFiGO!?!]

Wise words from young Mr Cartman:

[Rob k]

It appears that the 'Ultra' movement is a movement for the 'ultra' fan - a fan that believes they are more passionate about footy than other fans (something that manifests itself as 'We sing louder, wave our flags more, therefore we are better fans than you attitude'): 

http://www.ultrasuk.co.uk/about

 

If that floats your boat, then so be it.

 

And here lies the problem, you are trying to set yourselves up as being above the 'average' fan - an average fan who still pays the same money as the ultras and probably exist in greater numbers. The 'average' fan will get annoyed by some 'ultra' telling them how they should support the club, when they are told that they are not 'supporters' because they aren't doing what ultras are doing etc. If you believe this situation doesn't exist, then I suggest you look closer at some of the comments made on this subject.

 

The corporate types take notice because it's the 'average' fan that brings in more money.

 

I have nothing against passion but I do get a little pissed off by people who believe they are the 'model' supporter but on scratching the surface, you find someone who just likes complaining that there every whim is not being catered for. No problem with 'Ultras' flying their flags, jumping about, shouting etc., but lay off the 'we are better fans than you attitude'.

 

As to passion, some can't temper it and that is what led to some of the problems in the 70s - 90s. For those who want those days back, forget it, it's not going to happen.

I've never seen one post of anyone proclaiming to be a better fan than anyone else, it seems to me there is an element who want to believe this.

All I see is a group of fans who want to display flags etc and create an atmosphere in the ground, if that's not for you then fair enough.

[GodEmperor Palpatine]

I've never seen one post of anyone proclaiming to be a better fan than anyone else, it seems to me there is an element who want to believe this.

All I see is a group of fans who want to display flags etc and create an atmosphere in the ground, if that's not for you then fair enough.

 

I was about to post a similar thing so +1.

 

I don't get this 'super fan' thing, its just a group of supporters who want to generate a colourful atmosphere just like at MK.. loud and getting behind the team. The more people it encourages to join in the better.

[NickJ]

Some obviously care more/ regarding a flag than the real issues with the club.

Going to let you into a secret...

......some people's real issues are different to your real issues.

 

 

Stop faffing about, we all know what the term Ulta means in football terms, you and yours don't even have the bottle to be up front about it, like the UKIP joke party that have to squirm lie and dodge actually spitting out what they truly stand for.

What do UKIP have to do with any of this?

  

Then we have the self proclaimed UKIP voter talking about "inclusiveness" what irony!. And as an additional point, does this inclusivity extend to the CSF and those who think it's part of the day to cause trouble?

You seem to have difficulties with the English language - to self proclaim (meaning: describe oneself as for example an expert or leader) would be a contradiction in terms if I am imploring others to do the same as me, ie vote UKIP.

Next - please show me where else the word "inclusiveness", or even anything like it, has been used by me or anyone else in reference to the Ultras issue.

Finally - you appear to have the same problem as our Fans Liaison Officer; mention of the word "Ultra" and you shake at the knees and make absurd inappropriate links to irrelevant factions which are not what is being spoken about. People are rightly insulted by this slur and yet you continue to perpetuate it.

 

Well put, however I am not so sure that politics are not an issue here, especially as one on here wit implores us to Vote UKIP in his sig, whilst condemning those that don't like what Ultra stands for in football.

You seem obsessed with UKIP. Somebody else has got a reference to a hedgehog as his sig, do you bring hedgehogs into your debates with him?

 

 

So you think that it would be good to have a big flag with "KKK" and a burning cross on it..?

No, and I haven't said so or even implied it. Do you?

"ten minutes", "port said" and "bar bs3" have you actually ever met and spoken with any of the individuals who hold different views to you? Indeed have any of you ever spoken with me? I suspect you would have different ways of expressing your views, in fact your views might be different if you did.

I don't exactly know what Bristol City Ultras are, if indeed they exist at all as a formal group, just a loose association of like minded fans in their support of Bristol City I suspect, who are apolitical, just fanatical about their club, its just a word used. They don't claim to be better supporters than any of you. Just want the right to support their team in their own way. As fellow supporters, you should be behind them.

Just because I currently support UKIP does not mean I am a racist or any of those things which are implied behind your constant references and which people such as yourselves automatically conclude. It's part practical assessment that the UK is a small country with a reduced influence on the international stage and limited resources, part recognition that, while the majority of immigrants contribute and work hard, successive governments have made it too easy for those who want to come and abuse the system to do so, and finally a view that the benefits of EU membership are considerably less than the negatives. I have voted Tory, LibDem, SDLP, even voted Green in my time, and when the next party comes along with views which I relate to, I will vote whoever that is. Your constant attempts to undermine a debate about whether a certain type of flag should be allowed at a football ground by references to the political party of my choice is is frankly quite pathetic.

[RedM]

I've never seen one post of anyone proclaiming to be a better fan than anyone else, it seems to me there is an element who want to believe this.

All I see is a group of fans who want to display flags etc and create an atmosphere in the ground, if that's not for you then fair enough.

To add some balance into this there is often comments along the lines of 'we stood and sang for 90 minutes, what about the rest of you'

Or 'the players came over and acknowledged our support'

Yes stand and sing, great I like it, but don't feel so insecure it has to be mentioned every game or question others who support differently, whether it be those in the family areas, other stands or corporate groups. We are all different but ultimately want the same, don't we?

Players tend to acknowledge all areas of the ground, you just don't see comments written as they aren't necessary.

[Port Said Red]

Going to let you into a secret...

......some people's real issues are different to your real issues.

 

 

What do UKIP have to do with any of this?

  

You seem to have difficulties with the English language - to self proclaim (meaning: describe oneself as for example an expert or leader) would be a contradiction in terms if I am imploring others to do the same as me, ie vote UKIP.

Next - please show me where else the word "inclusiveness", or even anything like it, has been used by me or anyone else in reference to the Ultras issue.

Finally - you appear to have the same problem as our Fans Liaison Officer; mention of the word "Ultra" and you shake at the knees and make absurd inappropriate links to irrelevant factions which are not what is being spoken about. People are rightly insulted by this slur and yet you continue to perpetuate it.

 

You seem obsessed with UKIP. Somebody else has got a reference to a hedgehog as his sig, do you bring hedgehogs into your debates with him?

 

 

No, and I haven't said so or even implied it. Do you?

"ten minutes", "port said" and "bar bs3" have you actually ever met and spoken with any of the individuals who hold different views to you? Indeed have any of you ever spoken with me? I suspect you would have different ways of expressing your views, in fact your views might be different if you did.

I don't exactly know what Bristol City Ultras are, if indeed they exist at all as a formal group, just a loose association of like minded fans in their support of Bristol City I suspect, who are apolitical, just fanatical about their club, its just a word used. They don't claim to be better supporters than any of you. Just want the right to support their team in their own way. As fellow supporters, you should be behind them.

Just because I currently support UKIP does not mean I am a racist or any of those things which are implied behind your constant references and which people such as yourselves automatically conclude. It's part practical assessment that the UK is a small country with a reduced influence on the international stage and limited resources, part recognition that, while the majority of immigrants contribute and work hard, successive governments have made it too easy for those who want to come and abuse the system to do so, and finally a view that the benefits of EU membership are considerably less than the negatives. I have voted Tory, LibDem, SDLP, even voted Green in my time, and when the next party comes along with views which I relate to, I will vote whoever that is. Your constant attempts to undermine a debate about whether a certain type of flag should be allowed at a football ground by references to the political party of my choice is is frankly quite pathetic.

I don't know you from Adam and don't care to, if you don't want people to link your footballing views with your political ones, then don't flaunt them. You don't know how I vote (although you have probably wrongly decided you know my preferences) and you never will on this forum. You will however know my views on football because this is a football forum.

[WTFiGO!?!]

And this is how these threads go every time. A few people get on their high horse about flags noise etc and anyone who makes a point about how little it matters gets shouted down. Then we have the self proclaimed UKIP voter talking about "inclusiveness" what irony!. And as an additional point, does this inclusivity extend to the CSF and those who think it's part of the day to cause trouble?

In another thread last night I was being told that the reason kids don't come to football is because "it's boring as shite"! and that a group of kids who attended recently were "only interested in the flares and aggro with the stewards". When I suggested that perhaps they weren't the kids we should be attracting, I was told to "stop bleating and accept the facts" 

If these are the facts (which I seriously doubt) then maybe this explains why "flags and Noise" are so important to a group of people, they have little interest in what is happening on the pitch, therefore Bristol Sport who have the ultimate interest in success will always be at loggerheads with that group.

 

My main criticism of Bristol Sport, and I discussed this in a personal chat with DL at MK, is that some of the moves they have made recently have played into this groups hands, and they are dragging in some people who have some sympathy with individual causes. This has parallels in the political arena  as well although I would doubt whether there is any deliberate manipulation going on here, it does appear that a very small minority are gaining supporters due to this.

My main critisism of Bristol Sport is that instead of definitively stating that it's their way or the highway, they treat any desscenting voices like the country's politicians treat the voter; manipulatively and with contempt. It's for the sake of Bristol's Polish population that Ultras, a previously accepted flag is now banned, apparently. The bar was moved and has fooled no one (just to bring an example for the point).

BS haven't 'played into' the descenting voices' hands, BS have shown their colours in their conduct.

As all that seems to matters for you and them is a winning team, we're obviously on that lovely business term 'different pages' so what does it matter anyway? Have to agree to disagree.