Ultra's? What's In A Name?

[Port Said Red]

My main critisism of Bristol Sport is that instead of definitively stating that it's their way or the highway, they treat any desscenting voices like the country's politicians treat the voter; manipulatively and with contempt. It's for the sake of Bristol's Polish population that Ultras, a previously accepted flag is now banned, apparently. The bar was moved and has fooled no one (just to bring an example for the point).

BS haven't 'played into' the descenting voices' hands, BS have shown their colours in their conduct.

As all that seems to matters for you and them is a winning team, we're obviously on that lovely business term 'different pages' so what does it matter anyway? Have to agree to disagree.

Whilst this isn't true of all the "Ultra" group, you cannot deny that there are those who talk about flags and noise and the right to support the club the way they want, but actually mean the right to misbehave and act anyway they want under the banner of "support". So BS are not the only ones careful with their words and in fact, they have couch everything in those terms because they cannot be seen to be giving carte blanche to any sort of behaviour.

[WTFiGO!?!]

Whilst this isn't true of all the "Ultra" group, you cannot deny that there are those who talk about flags and noise and the right to support the club the way they want, but actually mean the right to misbehave and act anyway they want under the banner of "support". So BS are not the only ones careful with their words and in fact, they have couch everything in those terms because they cannot be seen to be giving carte blanche to any sort of behaviour.

Crystal Palace's board don't seem to agree.

There is enough CCTV in operation to prosecute anyone found to be behaving illegally at AG. The law and 'the vision' are not one in the same.

Some of the behaviour from some of the kids in the EE I was hardly enamoured by, don't get me wrong.

[Port Said Red]

Crystal Palace's board don't seem to agree.

There is enough CCTV in operation to prosecute anyone found to be behaving illegally at AG. The law and 'the vision' are not one in the same.

Some of the behaviour from some of the kids in the EE I was hardly enamoured by, don't get me wrong.

I guess it depends on which you think is better, having enough CCTV to deal with bad behaviour or not enable it in the first place.

[NickJ]

I don't know you from Adam and don't care to, if you don't want people to link your footballing views with your political ones, then don't flaunt them. You don't know how I vote (although you have probably wrongly decided you know my preferences) and you never will on this forum. You will however know my views on football because this is a football forum.

How on this earth are you able to make a link between my views on politics and my views on football?

Why would you want to?

How does "Vote UKIP" equate to "flaunting" political views? How is it an attempt to persuade people to link that to my football views?

I couldn't give a **** how you vote so why would I pretend to know your preferences, wrongly or otherwise?

My posts are football related on a football thread on a football forum so why would you want to bring up a throwaway signature into the mix?

What am I to make of your sig "save prejudice it saves time"?

I assume it is a joke - so should I be attempting to make a link between your sense of humour and your views on football?

Are you mixed up or just stupid?

[Port Said Red]

How on this earth are you able to make a link between my views on politics and my views on football?

Why would you want to?

How does "Vote UKIP" equate to "flaunting" political views? How is it an attempt to persuade people to link that to my football views?

I couldn't give a **** how you vote so why would I pretend to know your preferences, wrongly or otherwise?

My posts are football related on a football thread on a football forum so why would you want to bring up a throwaway signature into the mix?

What am I to make of your sig "save prejudice it saves time"?

I assume it is a joke - so should I be attempting to make a link between your sense of humour and your views on football?

Are you mixed up or just stupid?

I would like to think that you can tell from my posts that I am far from stupid, I am not at all mixed up either, if that's the way you wish to read my posts that's up to you. My question therefore is do you always get abusive when someone criticises your views? 

[NickJ]

No, I didn't abuse, I asked a question.

In a similar way, just for example, that you made spurious irrelevant links from the words Ultra and UKIP to raise questions about support of CSF.

[Port Said Red]

No, I didn't abuse, I asked a question.

In a similar way, just for example, that you made spurious irrelevant links from the words Ultra and UKIP to raise questions about support of CSF.

No i didn't. On previous threads there have been a lot of people saying there needs to be room for every type of fan, which I do agree with to a certain extent, that extent being that I don't think we should enable the violence of the past which groups such as the CSF have been part of. So my question was does the inclusiveness that people are mooting stretch to "every" fan as has been stated or is that yet another sweeping generalisation that we are all prone too. You appear to have scanned through my posts, picked up those terms and made the link yourself.

[ten minutes of rough]

No, I didn't abuse, I asked a question.

In a similar way, just for example, that you made spurious irrelevant links from the words Ultra and UKIP to raise questions about support of CSF.

Let's face it you are in a corner and you hit out with abuse, you have lost it, plain and simple...Next? 

[NickJ]

No i didn't. On previous threads there have been a lot of people saying there needs to be room for every type of fan, which I do agree with to a certain extent, that extent being that I don't think we should enable the violence of the past which groups such as the CSF have been part of. So my question was does the inclusiveness that people are mooting stretch to "every" fan as has been stated or is that yet another sweeping generalisation that we are all prone too. You appear to have scanned through my posts, picked up those terms and made the link yourself.

No, you are wrong. Here is what you said:

 

Then we have the self proclaimed UKIP voter talking about "inclusiveness" what irony!. And as an additional point, does this inclusivity extend to the CSF and those who think it's part of the day to cause trouble?

So contrary to what you say, I haven't scanned through your posts and made a link, I am quoting directly the link which you yourself made from my support of UKIP to CSF, including, as it did, an inaccurate reference to the word in inverted commas (implying previous quotation) "inclusivity", a word which I have not used and in fact nobody on this thread has used - hence an inaccurate reference.

This in the same post I believe where you misapplied the term "self proclaimed".

You claim to be "far from stupid", I want to believe you, but remain far from convinced.

 

 

Let's face it you are in a corner and you hit out with abuse, you have lost it, plain and simple...Next? 

I am not in any corner and I have not lost it. I have challenged your pathetic attempts to ridicule, with your equally pathetic attempt to link UKIP to whatever you want it to mean, and neither of you seem to like it.

Port said has already confirmed he does not know me or any of the others that support the views of the ultras and further "would not care to do so", somewhat confirming his arrogance and prejudice.

Rather than attempt to justify anything you have said, particularly your references to UKIP, with reasoned explanation, your only response is yet a further unsuccessful attempt at ridicule. "Next"... what does that mean?

Have either of you read this?

http://bristolcitysupporters.org/atmosphere-bristol-city/

[ten minutes of rough]

Going to let you into a secret...

......some people's real issues are different to your real issues.

 

 

What do UKIP have to do with any of this?

  

You seem to have difficulties with the English language - to self proclaim (meaning: describe oneself as for example an expert or leader) would be a contradiction in terms if I am imploring others to do the same as me, ie vote UKIP.

Next - please show me where else the word "inclusiveness", or even anything like it, has been used by me or anyone else in reference to the Ultras issue.

Finally - you appear to have the same problem as our Fans Liaison Officer; mention of the word "Ultra" and you shake at the knees and make absurd inappropriate links to irrelevant factions which are not what is being spoken about. People are rightly insulted by this slur and yet you continue to perpetuate it.

 

You seem obsessed with UKIP. Somebody else has got a reference to a hedgehog as his sig, do you bring hedgehogs into your debates with him?

 

 

No, and I haven't said so or even implied it. Do you?

"ten minutes", "port said" and "bar bs3" have you actually ever met and spoken with any of the individuals who hold different views to you? Indeed have any of you ever spoken with me? I suspect you would have different ways of expressing your views, in fact your views might be different if you did.

I don't exactly know what Bristol City Ultras are, if indeed they exist at all as a formal group, just a loose association of like minded fans in their support of Bristol City I suspect, who are apolitical, just fanatical about their club, its just a word used. They don't claim to be better supporters than any of you. Just want the right to support their team in their own way. As fellow supporters, you should be behind them.

Just because I currently support UKIP does not mean I am a racist or any of those things which are implied behind your constant references and which people such as yourselves automatically conclude. It's part practical assessment that the UK is a small country with a reduced influence on the international stage and limited resources, part recognition that, while the majority of immigrants contribute and work hard, successive governments have made it too easy for those who want to come and abuse the system to do so, and finally a view that the benefits of EU membership are considerably less than the negatives. I have voted Tory, LibDem, SDLP, even voted Green in my time, and when the next party comes along with views which I relate to, I will vote whoever that is. Your constant attempts to undermine a debate about whether a certain type of flag should be allowed at a football ground by references to the political party of my choice is is frankly quite pathetic.

 

What is pathetic is to sig with vote UKIP, why would you want to do that unless you wish to actually tell us your political right wing views on matters, and then you bleat that we are making assumptions about you Ha!!

 

You say you don't know what BC Ultra's are, and yet the club know and may I suggest so do you and anyone who pretends that it is just an innocent phrase are kidding themselves, and if I was draw a political parallel in this I might consider the UKIP stance on anything and everything is motivated by a right wing agenda that offers a watered down version of the now disgraced BNP party 'manifesto', if they ever had one. But for them to ever be upfront and honest about their true agenda would be impossible, but we all know really don't we.

 

Don't get me wrong I am not a left winger whatever you might think, I do vote Conservative, and I do have concerns over immigration, I have served in the forces etc etc,  English and White, because I appreciate that these things are important to state so and just to be clear I have no axe to grind.

 

But what I abhor is the continuous abuse to other types that don't fit the criteria  of what we are supposed to be as a football club, you know, the never ending blathering about Rovers and their demise, which really makes us look worse, some of our fans need to look up from their navel's and see the business  model the SL is trying to bring to this backward looking straw sucking Wurzel acting cider supping God foresaken football club that is Bristol City, and about time too, so if you want to help, cut out the negatives, it is not  the 1980's   it is not about a cult following, it's about giving us a club we can all be proud of.

 

Are you IN?

[Port Said Red]

No, you are wrong. Here is what you said:

 

So contrary to what you say, I haven't scanned through your posts and made a link, I am quoting directly the link which you yourself made from my support of UKIP to CSF, including, as it did, an inaccurate reference to the word in inverted commas (implying previous quotation) "inclusivity", a word which I have not used and in fact nobody on this thread has used - hence an inaccurate reference.

This in the same post I believe where you misapplied the term "self proclaimed".

You claim to be "far from stupid", I want to believe you, but remain far from convinced.

 

 

I am not in any corner and I have not lost it. I have challenged your pathetic attempts to ridicule, with your equally pathetic attempt to link UKIP to whatever you want it to mean, and neither of you seem to like it.

Port said has already confirmed he does not know me or any of the others that support the views of the ultras and further "would not care to do so", somewhat confirming his arrogance and prejudice.

Rather than attempt to justify anything you have said, particularly your references to UKIP, with reasoned explanation, your only response is yet a further unsuccessful attempt at ridicule. "Next"... what does that mean?

Have either of you read this?

http://bristolcitysupporters.org/atmosphere-bristol-city/

So you have quoted my post and still not read it correctly, the two sentences are mutually exclusive. My only error is bringing in points from other threads which has clearly confused you. But Nick, you win , yes i am stupid, stupid enough to spend so much time arguing with you when you are quite clearly determined to misinterpret anything that doesn't fit with your vision of the world. 

[WTMS]

Here we go, are you actually lecturing me?

Please don'y put up Palace as a fan base I should look to as a good example, have you dropped in on their fans forums, ever?

All I ask for is a bit of clarity, as I say Utlra has nothing to do with being an Ultra good / nice supporter, but it does say a lot about the negative side of football support.

The rather poor Palace example sort of backs up what I am saying.

Please don'y put up Palace as a fan base I should look to as a good example, have you dropped in on their fans forums, ever?

No but frequently contacted one of their fans [HF] for information, and a member of CPFC2010 who run the club.

Palace are a very good example of a club working with fans.

You say you don't know what BC Ultra's are, and yet the club know and may I suggest so do you and anyone who pretends that it is just an innocent phrase are kidding themselves.

Forza Eastend - Ultra was a tag, a ironic vehicle for ideas. The Angry Robin, the murals, street art, the Lions and its flag day, WTMS all part of the same.

Some of the most enthusiastic fundraisers of ideas and collectors of Forza Eastend - Ultra badges, stickers etc were children.

Your post is as silly as the flag bans are.

[beaverface]

Soooo, the club feel that the "Ultra" flag is offensive to the Polish community? 

 

Guess the club will have to stop using DAS as a sponsor, as in Afrikaan the word means "die" - daren't be having that, could we?

 

BS stance is so silly, I'm sure there's multiple angles that they could ban things because of "perceived" offence. What next, banning opposition players that have criminal records?

[Aussie]

Just in case!

As someone who has served my national service in the Israeli Army I'm happy to use any language he wants to tell him to f### right off.

He wouldn't last 1 day in my unit with the sh1t we put up with over there .

[Rich]

Even I'm a tad scared that people are currently blinded by our league position and have therefore stop worrying about the seemingly dangerous path our club is currently going down in terms of the type of fan it wants to see at our club.

There is space for everyone, the club would do very well to remember that, as its that type of fan that would still turn up and support the club when we aren't doing so well on the pitch.

I share your concerns Marie. I believe this club, given a little success, would price out of the market completely it's traditional supporter, in favour of middle income family groups, of which there are plenty within the surrounds of Bristol. Our last foray into the championship was met with large price hikes and an attitude from the top of, if you can't afford it, tuff there's always someone who will. That was until they got relegated and the more affluent supporter pissed off, leaving the traditional fan to continue supporting as they've always done. I hope this won't happen again. Bradford get good support with sensible pricing.

[Vincent Vega]

I share your concerns Marie. I believe this club, given a little success, would price out of the market completely it's traditional supporter, in favour of middle income family groups, of which there are plenty within the surrounds of Bristol. Our last foray into the championship was met with large price hikes and an attitude from the top of, if you can't afford it, tuff there's always someone who will. That was until they got relegated and the more affluent supporter pissed off, leaving the traditional fan to continue supporting as they've always done. I hope this won't happen again. Bradford get good support with sensible pricing.

Bradford....?

[Sixtyseconds]

Are you IN?

Are you IN?

Not going well your election campaign so far.

You won't even get your deposit back.

[Rich]

Bradford....?

Yes. I believe they offer good value for money on season tickets. They get bigger attendances than us, even though we're being more successful. They are a smaller city than us, with only one league club, so the only answer to bigger attendances in this case must be the price structuring. 

[Vincent Vega]

Yes. I believe they offer good value for money on season tickets. They get bigger attendances than us, even though we're being more successful. They are a smaller city than us, with only one league club, so the only answer to bigger attendances in this case must be the price structuring. 

But as a rule i would suspect most northern clubs to be cheaper than us

[Rich]

But as a rule i would suspect most northern clubs to be cheaper than us

That is probably true. What I was trying to get across was that, since they changed their policy on pricing and reduced them, their attendances have increased considerably and stayed there, obviously a bit of success helps.

I think our club would price certain people out of the market, in favour of wealthier supporters. I believe they are trying to create an environment that would suit those "customers" more.

[BigTone]

I thought Ultras was Italian for toss pot

[Vincent Vega]

That is probably true. What I was trying to get across was that, since they changed their policy on pricing and reduced them, their attendances have increased considerably and stayed there, obviously a bit of success helps.

I think our club would price certain people out of the market, in favour of wealthier supporters. I believe they are trying to create an environment that would suit those "customers" morew

i think you are right ,but we will need better players & these come at a cost

[Red Exile]

[ChippenhamRed]

I share your concerns Marie. I believe this club, given a little success, would price out of the market completely it's traditional supporter, in favour of middle income family groups, of which there are plenty within the surrounds of Bristol. Our last foray into the championship was met with large price hikes and an attitude from the top of, if you can't afford it, tuff there's always someone who will. That was until they got relegated and the more affluent supporter pissed off, leaving the traditional fan to continue supporting as they've always done. I hope this won't happen again. Bradford get good support with sensible pricing.

The club raised prices in line with their promotion to a higher division - in order to generate the income necessary to compete at that level - and then lowered them in line with relegation to a lower division. What did you expect them to do? A football club is more than just a business, but neither is it a charity.

Do you have any evidence of this "attitude from the top" you claim other than price rises? Or have you just assumed that was their attitude without actually knowing? The latter I suspect.

And what evidence do you have of "affluent supporters" no longer attending since relegation? True, attendances are down since relegation, but that is normal for all clubs. Those no longer coming has less to do with their affluence than the less attractive product that is third tier football. City's pricing is generally in line with other clubs in their division. The way you talk about "this club" suggests we are uniquely expensive, which we are not.

Football in general is now too expensive, but that is not the fault of Bristol City - it's much wider than that. Painting the picture of the club as a cynical money-grabbing exercise is unfair and unfounded.

[ChippenhamRed]

[Rich]

i think you are right ,but we will need better players & these come at a cost

It's a balancing act. More paying supporters can create more income than less supporters, paying more.

It's not easy but, we'll soon have a stadium with a capacity of 27k, reasonably successful and I think we'll regularly see gates in the twenties. In my opinion, it's then that you can attract the type of supporter who will pay more, for better facilities, to create another stream of income for player investment. You have to keep your core support onside and involved. It does appear sometimes as if there's a constant fight going on between fans, and administrators who don't know their customer base.

[Vincent Vega]

It's a balancing act. More paying supporters can create more income than less supporters, paying more.

It's not easy but, we'll soon have a stadium with a capacity of 27k, reasonably successful and I think we'll regularly see gates in the twenties. In my opinion, it's then that you can attract the type of supporter who will pay more, for better facilities, to create another stream of income for player investment. You have to keep your core support onside and involved. It does appear sometimes as if there's a constant fight going on between fans, and administrators who don't know their customer base.

Totally agree with you,if this forum is any reflection of the support as a whole, it would seem we are in turmoil

[Bristol Rob]

I thought Ultras was Italian for toss pot

No, that's Sega.

[Red Exile]

Totally agree with you,if this forum is any reflection of the support as a whole, it would seem we are in turmoil

 

Fortunately I suspect it's not!

[Rich]