Mediterranean Migrants

[Red-Robbo]

I bet Blair wished he had you and not that Burnley supporting ***** as his spin doctor at the time, even he never came up with that one, but anyway don't forget everybody knew he had the gas it wasn't a great surprise and was being dealt with by the UN weapon inspectors, but Bush and Blair didn't want that did they? and that's not the WMD we was looking for anyway guv, the question is where did the components of that poison gas originally come from to start their own programme?, because they were originally all imported.

Quite. I'm not spinning for Tone, I'd punch the**** if ever I saw him.

There's plenty of evidence that there was a missile, chemical warhead and even fledgling nuclear programme in Iraq, but sanctions, poverty, weapons inspections and internal distractions put an end to all that at an early stage.

That said, Saddam didn't help his cause with the obstructions, obfuscations and obvious lies he used on the UN team. Hans Blix - no warmonger he - thought there was a WMD programme still being hidden.

But that's a sideshow, because we know that the war was not about that, not ever ever....

Anyway, back to the migrants folks, we've drifted off course.

[cityexile]

Wow, if anyone had the solution to this one.

Complicated hugely by my different emotional response to those who are really economic migrants, and those who are genuinely fleeing war and persecution (often at the hands of those 'brothers' who some seem to think they are keen to rejoin!). It is also true that many of the countries they may had fled to like Turkey have closed their borders after taking millions of refugees.

I appreciate all of this is a lot easier to say than do on the ground, but;

- it simply has to be a coordinated European response. We must play our part in that. The comment about what would we do about the Jews is not vile, it is actually not a bad historical comparison. Sadly much of Europe felt about Jews then, as it does about Muslims now;

- have a concerted go at the smugglers, who are profiting from this human misery;

- find some way of identifying the real refugees, and play our part in helping them. We simply do no turn our backs on those fleeing in fear of their lives.

Easy to say I know.

An anecdote. A family joined our school some months back. They had ran from the most appalling position imaginable, young children seeing family members butchered and a whole pile of other stuff. I do not always know what being 'British' means anymore. I can tell you however that when I saw the two girls who were joining us standing there, in their bright new school uniforms (to the extent it is relevant, both wearing Hijabs), I felt right then, so damned proud of this country.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

Wow, if anyone had the solution to this one.

Complicated hugely by my different emotional response to those who are really economic migrants, and those who are genuinely fleeing war and persecution (often at the hands of those 'brothers' who some seem to think they are keen to rejoin!). It is also true that many of the countries they may had fled to like Turkey have closed their borders after taking millions of refugees.

I appreciate all of this is a lot easier to say than do on the ground, but;

- it simply has to be a coordinated European response. We must play our part in that. The comment about what would we do about the Jews is not vile, it is actually not a bad historical comparison. Sadly much of Europe felt about Jews then, as it does about Muslims now;

- have a concerted go at the smugglers, who are profiting from this human misery;

- find some way of identifying the real refugees, and play our part in helping them. We simply do no turn our backs on those fleeing in fear of their lives.

Easy to say I know.

An anecdote. A family joined our school some months back. They had ran from the most appalling position imaginable, young children seeing family members butchered and a whole pile of other stuff. I do not always know what being 'British' means anymore. I can tell you however that when I saw the two girls who were joining us standing there, in their bright new school uniforms (to the extent it is relevant, both wearing Hijabs), I felt right then, so damned proud of this country.

 

The real problem is once in the UK, genuine persecuted asylum seeker or economic migrant?, our lawyer gravy train publicly funded liberal lawyers, will find a way to make a case, illegal immigrants have to be incredibly unlucky to be deported these days, even mass murders are protected.

[22A]

Heard on tonight's news the differing reactions throughout Europe.

Italy wants to beef up it's patrols stopping these boats from entering Italian territorial waters.

Angela Merkel suggest they be permitted in, but then shared out equally throughout the EU. Hmm; how many Libyans fancy spending their lives in downtown Gdansk?

[Esmond Million's Bung]

Heard on tonight's news the differing reactions throughout Europe.

Italy wants to beef up it's patrols stopping these boats from entering Italian territorial waters.

Angela Merkel suggest they be permitted in, but then shared out equally throughout the EU. Hmm; how many Libyans fancy spending their lives in downtown Gdansk?

 

So what will happen to this share out if a vast majority of them, say we don't want to be shared, we want to go to the UK?, which is what is happening at Calias, migrants crossing multiple borders with only one intended destination?.

[TRL]

Not exactly stable. Saddam created 2m Kurdish refugees. Many of them now living in Britain, Germany or Sweden.

Compared to now?

[Portland Bill]

Oh yes I forgot all of those weapons of mass destruction that he definitely had with 45 minute capability for their usage and that's the reason we went in, not regime change in fact Saint Tony was at pains to tell us before the invasion that regime change was not an option, that was until no WMD was found and he needed to pretend that regime change was plan b.

I'm no fan of Blair, he was in the wrong party, interestingly 139 Labour MP's voted against military action.

The Tories fully supported the the action,except for about a dozen dissenters.

Also,don't forget that only last year Cameron wanted to do similar in Syria,but this Labour Party stopped him.

As it turns out, Cameron would have been helping Islamic state!

[Red-Robbo]

Compared to now?

 

No, it's worse now, but as I've long held Dumbo Bush and his dupe merely hastened that eventuality. When you read about Qusay Hussein, who the Iraqis would have inherited when his dad popped it, you realise that the veneer of stability was incredibly thin. The whole state operated by divide and rule whereby 65% of the population were the wrong religion or ethnicity and were kept away from any sort of power. Something was gonna blow!

[Esmond Million's Bung]

I'm no fan of Blair, he was in the wrong party, interestingly 139 Labour MP's voted against military action.

The Tories fully supported the the action,except for about a dozen dissenters.

Also,don't forget that only last year Cameron wanted to do similar in Syria,but this Labour Party stopped him.

As it turns out, Cameron would have been helping Islamic state!

 

Again Bill another good re write of history, 244 labour and 139 tories voted for the war yes, based on Blairs dodgy/sexed up intelligence, but sadly more than a few labour cabinet members already new it was a lie even before the vote went ahead.

 

The vote on Syria was for air strikes, not a war and Miliband said he would support it but was forced to change his mind 24 hours later when it was obvious the rest of his party would not support him, showing what ditherer he is.

 

and if you are trying to claim that somehow Miliband was the first person on earth to realise that Syrian opposition fighters would suddenly morph into isis, you really are having a laugh, everybody and his dog thought that they were just Syrian opposition rebels, Miliband over stepped his remit agreeing to support the motion and was forced to embarrassingly U-turn, it was probably the biggest slice of luck any opposition leader could have had in the history of politics and as it urned out for Britain and the wider world, but please don't try to claim it as anything other than luck.

 

PS:- The best thing of all the labour tactic seems to be, when the tories are in power blame them for everything, when labour are in power blame the tories when they back labour in any vote, share the blame.

[Portland Bill]

Again Bill another good re write of history, 244 labour and 139 tories voted for the war yes, based on Blairs dodgy/sexed up intelligence, but sadly more than a few labour cabinet members already new it was a lie even before the vote went ahead.

The vote on Syria was for air strikes, not a war and Miliband said he would support it but was forced to change his mind 24 hours later when it was obvious the rest of his party would not support him, showing what ditherer he is.

and if you are trying to claim that somehow Miliband was the first person on earth to realise that Syrian opposition fighters would suddenly morph into isis, you really are having a laugh, everybody and his dog thought that they were just Syrian opposition rebels, Miliband over stepped his remit agreeing to support the motion and was forced to embarrassingly U-turn, it was probably the biggest slice of luck any opposition leader could have had in the history of politics and as it urned out for Britain and the wider world, but please don't try to claim it as anything other than luck.

PS:- The best thing of all the labour tactic seems to be, when the tories are in power blame them for everything, when labour are in power blame the tories when they back labour in any vote, share the blame.

E, I'm not re writing anything, I can't see anything that I wrote is wrong.

I don't believe it was a u turn by Miliband,he more than anyone knows what Blair did was wrong,and wasn't going to rush into anything,and make the wrong decision.

It was more a case of Cameron's lucky day that air strikes were voted against!

[Esmond Million's Bung]

E, I'm not re writing anything, I can't see anything that I wrote is wrong.

I don't believe it was a u turn by Miliband,he more than anyone knows what Blair did was wrong,and wasn't going to rush into anything,and make the wrong decision.

It was more a case of Cameron's lucky day that air strikes were voted against!

 

Well you didn't mention a small thing like a bullshit Blair sexed up intelligence document for starters.

 

and you said Cameron wanted to do similar in Syria (meaning similar to Iraq 2003) which is untrue it was for air strikes only, not boots on the the ground.

 

and a bloke who aspires to be PM, verbally gives his word he would support the motion, not let me think about this/consult my colleagues over night, gives his word and then reneges by phone in the morning, yep he's gonna be tough and decisive if the nation is mad enough to give him the chance.

 

Your last sentence is probably true, however only Ed can spin it into, I was right, but of course he had the benefit of 2 wild guesses and the 2nd guess was after colleagues reminded him what happened the last time that labour supported military action, the time when his brother and a few others sanctioned the torture of British citizens.

[Red-Robbo]

Well you didn't mention a small thing like a bullshit Blair sexed up intelligence document for starters.

and you said Cameron wanted to do similar in Syria (meaning similar to Iraq 2003) which is untrue it was for air strikes only, not boots on the the ground.

and a bloke who aspires to be PM, verbally gives his word he would support the motion, not let me think about this/consult my colleagues over night, gives his word and then reneges by phone in the morning, yep he's gonna be tough and decisive if the nation is mad enough to give him the chance.

Your last sentence is probably true, however only Ed can spin it into, I was right, but of course he had the benefit of 2 wild guesses and the 2nd guess was after colleagues reminded him what happened the last time that labour supported military action, the time when his brother and a few others sanctioned the torture of British citizens.

It would be great if you could make just one post on this forum without the blue rosette obscuring your vision. The extraordinary renditions went on until 2012 and the all-party security committee was aware of them and Diego Garcia's use as a transit to CIA black sites - which still continues incidentally.

Be great if we could keep this thread on topic, but I won't hold my breath...

[Aizoon]

Chipdawg always has a blind spot there Marshy.

Simple solution is to stop poking our noses into other countries affairs in the first place, we destabilise the country, get out and it goes to shit and we sit back and say, things are much safer now that terrible dictator has gone.

Perfectly true, but now we can cheat them of their oil. Result!

[Esmond Million's Bung]

It would be great if you could make just one post on this forum without the blue rosette obscuring your vision. The extraordinary renditions went on until 2012 and the all-party security committee was aware of them and Diego Garcia's use as a transit to CIA black sites - which still continues incidentally.

Be great if we could keep this thread on topic, but I won't hold my breath...

 

Great to see you holding up the great traditions of your trade, just make it up, unlike some of whom as Screech so rightly said stick a red rosette on a dog turd and they would vote for it, I never have in fact I have only ever voted tory once in my life and I didn't change the direction of this thread either if you care to check back Monkeh did.

 

Back on thread it seems to me that our friends in Turkey and not for the first time in the past 2/3 years need to stop sitting on their hands and prove that they actually can step up a be a part of a wider europe, one of these doomed boats came from Turkey and the BBC news report said last night that there are thousands more migrants on the beaches of Turkey waiting to make the perilous journey.

[Red-Robbo]

Great to see you holding up the great traditions of your trade, just make it up, unlike some of whom as Screech so rightly said stick a red rosette on a dog turd and they would vote for it, I never have in fact I have only ever voted tory once in my life and I didn't change the direction of this thread either if you care to check back Monkeh did.

Back on thread it seems to me that our friends in Turkey and not for the first time in the past 2/3 years need to stop sitting on their hands and prove that they actually can step up a be a part of a wider europe, one of these doomed boats came from Turkey and the BBC news report said last night that there are thousands more migrants on the beaches of Turkey waiting to make the perilous journey.

You just post the sort of things right-wing Tory columnists would, Es. You positively froth at the mouth at the mention of any Labour politicians in a Simon Heffer/Peter Hitchens/Richard Littlejohn style.

So you see if something walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, people will assume.... [you know the rest!]

BTW what are the "great traditions" of digital media consultants? And what are the great traditions of retired people living abroad if it comes to that? Does the second clause of your first sentence mean one of them is leaping to the wrong conclusions about the political beliefs of others?!

[Esmond Million's Bung]

You just post the sort of things right-wing Tory columnists would, Es. You positively froth at the mouth at the mention of any Labour politicians in a Simon Heffer/Peter Hitchens/Richard Littlejohn style.

So you see if something walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, people will assume.... [you know the rest!]

BTW what are the "great traditions" of digital media consultants? And what are the great traditions of retired people living abroad if it comes to that? Does the second clause of your first sentence mean one of them is leaping to the wrong conclusions about the political beliefs of others?!

 

There you go.

[Red-Robbo]

There you go.

Fair enough, but don't attribute some party political / archetypal liberal views to me on the issue you were posting about.

As I've said before, I though US forces would've been better off quietly shooting as mercenaries the foreign nationals they found fighting in Afghanistan - and that includes the various Saudis, Egyptians, Jordanians and Pakistanis jihadists who the Thatcher and Major governments were daft enough to grant asylum to on the grounds they were anti-communists.

Back to migrants. The assumption seems to have been here that the situation would never have arisen had Gadaffi been alive, but didn't he once threaten to "turn Europe black" if he didn't get his way over sanctions?

[PHILINFRANCE]

[Red-Robbo]

[Esmond Million's Bung]

Fair enough, but don't attribute some party political / archetypal liberal views to me on the issue you were posting about.

As I've said before, I though US forces would've been better off quietly shooting as mercenaries the foreign nationals they found fighting in Afghanistan - and that includes the various Saudis, Egyptians, Jordanians and Pakistanis jihadists who the Thatcher and Major governments were daft enough to grant asylum to on the grounds they were anti-communists.

Back to migrants. The assumption seems to have been here that the situation would never have arisen had Gadaffi been alive, but didn't he once threaten to "turn Europe black" if he didn't get his way over sanctions?

 

Ditto.

[Red-Robbo]

Ditto.

Fear not Es I'll never attribute archetypal liberal views to you.

Or repeatedly suggest that your former profession makes you liable to twist the truth and you should work as David Cameron's PR man.

That will not happen.

You have the word of a small businessman.

[Mr Popodopolous]

the same can be said about colonel Gadaffi and trying to remove assad,

those people are evil but there were/are the lesser of two evils,

What we have now is so much worse

 

This. Also removing or trying to remove Assad would have been dangerous as I strongly suspect Russia would have armed him with very advanced anti aircraft missiles owing to their naval base...we dodged a bit of a bullet.