Academy.... 'bermuda Triangle' Of English Football.

[spudski]

[Barrs Court Red]

Not sure why such a long post about b teams, a proposal that was roundly criticised when it was aired, and rightly too.

As for Southamptons investment, hats off to them. Were City to do that now, and not gain level one status, it would be a complete waste of money. We're already losing good young players as it is, to clubs who will then block their development buy bringing in foreign pros. The same clubs moaning that their players need more experience.

[chipdawg]

So the biggest clubs will get an even more of an advantage by being able to develop their youth players in a more competitive environment? I appreciate there's a lot more to that article than just the proposal for B teams and I can see the advantage for the development of English players, but it seems to very much favour the already powerful

[spudski]

Not sure why such a long post about b teams, a proposal that was roundly criticised when it was aired, and rightly too.

As for Southamptons investment, hats off to them. Were City to do that now, and not gain level one status, it would be a complete waste of money. We're already losing good young players as it is, to clubs who will then block their development buy bringing in foreign pros. The same clubs moaning that their players need more experience.

The articles were to try and shed some light on how to bridge the gap between first team and development teams.

 

It's not working generally across the UK...it is a problem.

 

So if you don't agree in investing heavily in the Academy ( what's the point of an Academy if it's not producing players worth more than your investment ? ).

And you don't agree with 'B' teams....like they have in many Countries....

 

Then what would you propose?....as it's not really working atm.

[Barrs Court Red]

The articles were to try and shed some light on how to bridge the gap between first team and development teams.

It's not working generally across the UK...it is a problem.

So if you don't agree in investing heavily in the Academy ( what's the point of an Academy if it's not producing players worth more than your investment ? ).

And you don't agree with 'B' teams....like they have in many Countries....

Then what would you propose?....as it's not really working atm.

The point of OUR academy when it was set up was to avoid having a squad full of ageing pros on big wages. It was never set up to produce wonder kids. Is it worth having? Currently I'd say the jury is out, if you look at the results over its lifetime.

And no, I don't agree with b teams. They only suit premier league clubs interests, certainly not the interest of Bristol City.

What would I do? Give Wade Elliot a chance for starters, as it is his job to bring players through.

[spudski]

The point of OUR academy when it was set up was to avoid having a squad full of ageing pros on big wages. It was never set up to produce wonder kids. Is it worth having? Currently I'd say the jury is out, if you look at the results over its lifetime.

And no, I don't agree with b teams. They only suit premier league clubs interests, certainly not the interest of Bristol City.

What would I do? Give Wade Elliot a chance for starters, as it is his job to bring players through.

Interesting views...so you agree the Academy was set up to produce players for the first team?

 

As for Wade Elliott....you actually think he can deliver more than all before him? Or do something that most Academy's around the Country are failing to do well?

 

Surely Wades job is just the tip of the iceberg and it's everything under him and Tinman that is important?

[Lack of Action Man]

[Harry]

One thing I will pick out from this, is the authority's continual insistence to cap non-EU players.

To me, a foreign player is a foreign player, whether they're from Barcelona or Bogota. The insistence of capping non-EU players is a smoke-screen, a distraction.

If they want to cap the foreign influence, it should be all foreigners, not just those who aren't part of the United States of Europe adventure.

[Spoonbed]

I may be talking BS, but what I struggle to understand, is why does the Bristol geographical area( and indeed the West Country) seem to produce so few professional players( no matter what academy they attend)

I can't think of many players that have played at the prem level from the glos, wilts, som, Devon and Cornwall postcodes?thThats a huge amount of people.

Is there something in the water?

[CyderInACan]

The best analogy I can apply to this is how Blackadder described the way that Europe tried to avert WW1.

[Ian M]

One thing I will pick out from this, is the authority's continual insistence to cap non-EU players.

To me, a foreign player is a foreign player, whether they're from Barcelona or Bogota. The insistence of capping non-EU players is a smoke-screen, a distraction.

If they want to cap the foreign influence, it should be all foreigners, not just those who aren't part of the United States of Europe adventure.

I suspect that's borne of it being illegal to specifically cap EU workers.

[spudski]

One thing I will pick out from this, is the authority's continual insistence to cap non-EU players.

To me, a foreign player is a foreign player, whether they're from Barcelona or Bogota. The insistence of capping non-EU players is a smoke-screen, a distraction.

If they want to cap the foreign influence, it should be all foreigners, not just those who aren't part of the United States of Europe adventure.

Surely that's an EU law....not a football rule?

 

 

I respect you for taking the time to post this, but you lost credibility for me when you began discussing the B-teams as a positive. I just can't agree with the concept of Bristol City facing a Manchester Utd B. It completely devalues the football league and makes a mockery of clubs and fan bases that have been established for over a century.

I completely see your point...but how else would you suggest closing that gap?

[Guest]

I think the issue is impatience to be honest Spudski.

Academy improvements, developments, philosophies take a long time to take effect. Players don't train and improve overnight and similarly academy improvements may not be visible until many year groups later. The main beneficiaries of improvements today will be under 13's ish... It will be four seasons realistically until they're really building a profile.

I guess my point is the academy today is only producing what it was geared up to produce four or five years ago, so it's far too early to even begin to wonder whether Tinnion or his staff are doing well.

By a similar vein it's why I'm reluctant to agree Soton's churning machine and Brentford's purple patch coinciding almost immediately with a new approach is necessarily a direct link to those improvements.

Soton have been that way geared up long before the money was spent and were rather consistently churning out good players. I expect those improvements have helped and I expect around about now even more consistent quality products from it. And I expect in five years time Brentford will reap the rewards, I'm just not sure they're reaping them yet. Nor do I think in either case we can be certain the improvements have brought significant results.

[spudski]

[Harry]

I suspect that's borne of it being illegal to specifically cap EU workers.

Exactly. A bunch of countries have got together and created their own rules, to the exclusion of anyone outside of their little club. It's bull.

Anyhow, footballers aren't really 'workers' are they?

[spudski]

Exactly. A bunch of countries have got together and created their own rules, to the exclusion of anyone outside of their little club. It's bull.

Anyhow, footballers aren't really 'workers' are they?

As someone who has to apply for a working visa every year, I totally agree...it's all bollox.

[Lack of Action Man]

Surely that's an EU law....not a football rule?

 

 

I completely see your point...but how else would you suggest closing that gap?

Thats the million dollar question isn't it!

I do wonder whether an under 23's league might be an idea, as a natural progression from the under 21's. You could also reverse the argument and make it an enforceable rule that each club must take on at least three academy developed players for 18month contracts every two seasons. Ideally this would then encourage clubs to take their youth systems and club philosophies more seriously, the standard of coaching should increase and the quality with it. Problem is though, I could never see it working as ideally as I've written here.

its a tricky one, and requires a mind greater than mine that is for sure.

[spudski]

Thats the million dollar question isn't it!

I do wonder whether an under 23's league might be an idea, as a natural progression from the under 21's. You could also reverse the argument and make it an enforceable rule that each club must take on at least three academy developed players for 18month contracts every two seasons. Ideally this would then encourage clubs to take their youth systems and club philosophies more seriously, the standard of coaching should increase and the quality with it. Problem is though, I could never see it working as ideally as I've written here.

its a tricky one, and requires a mind greater than mine that is for sure.

That's the problem it seems fella....Greater minds who have worked in the game for years, and know how it works, have come to a conclusion that B teams are the way forward.

 

Personally...I think it would be a great idea to have a number of development players included in each match day squad.

 

For me also....coaching in this Country is also still miles behind the Continent in general....but there are improvements being made.

 

The other big thing....we develop players well up to the late teens....but then the development slows down for some reason. There must be a reason for this.

[havanatopia]

Was chatting to someone who works for Burnley today... we got talking about development players, and for those who don't know, Burnley now play friendlies against teams, as they consider the 'Development' league not strong enough for them.

 

It's a massive problem in British Football....the gap between Development players and the First team is huge.

 

Watch our own Academy and you will see players no where near Championship standard.

 

It seems that as soon as a player gets almost there....they have to get shipped out on loan to get more experience.

Similar to what Burns and Reid did last year. Not really ideal is it....

 

The one team that has really upped the game is Southampton.

They've invested massively ( many millions ) on a huge Scouting network, coaches, 30 million state of the art training facility, massive technology ( Black box ) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4S34W9rsrT8 and attention to detail. A philosophy and pathway to the first team... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=loIPDDZgDqM All of their teams playing under their philosophy.

 

So how do we compete as a Club?

I am sure an interesting topic but just too long to digest and reply to all of it so I will pull out the first and only part i read..

 

The Saints can invest all they like but if, as I assume, your second sentence is a problem for them as well is it money well spent? Perhaps what Premier league clubs should be doing is directly subsidising the academies of non-prem teams in order to bridge this gap and have other teams they can play in a competitive manner. I am sure some deal could be arranged that benefits both parties.

 

And by the way.. the bods must get around a table and come up with a far better strategy based on the above and there would be absolutely no need for this Prem B League nonsense.

 

Or maybe you, me and half a dozen OTIB members do it, write up a cunning plan and present it to Dyke... if they cannot do it then someone else needs to. Get the Supporters Trust and a BCFC board member and, with SL's connection get Scudamores as well. 

 

Direct action me babbers.

[spudski]

I am sure an interesting topic but just too long to digest and reply to all of it so I will pull out the first and only part i read..

 

The Saints can invest all they like but if, as I assume, your second sentence is a problem for them as well is it money well spent? Perhaps what Premier league clubs should be doing is directly subsidising the academies of non-prem teams in order to bridge this gap and have other teams they can play in a competitive manner. I am sure some deal could be arranged that benefits both parties.

 

And by the way.. the bods must get around a table and come up with a far better strategy based on the above and there would be absolutely no need for this Prem B League nonsense.

 

Or maybe you, me and half a dozen OTIB members do it, write up a cunning plan and present it to Dyke... if they cannot do it then someone else needs to. Get the Supporters Trust and a BCFC board member and, with SL's connection get Scudamores as well. 

 

Direct action me babbers.

 

[Cowshed]

The articles were to try and shed some light on how to bridge the gap between first team and development teams.

It's not working generally across the UK...it is a problem.

So if you don't agree in investing heavily in the Academy ( what's the point of an Academy if it's not producing players worth more than your investment ? ).

And you don't agree with 'B' teams....like they have in many Countries....

Then what would you propose?....as it's not really working atm.

A club like Crewe can compete with giants of the game which exist near by, but Bristol City we are constantly told cannot compete with Southampton.

I would like BCFC to re-examine its payer Pathway. A obvious improvement City could make is using a network of satellite development centres to funnel talent towards its academy. Citys coverage of Somerset and Wiltshire is poor. Exeter have more coaching coverage of Somerset than BCFC. City need to increase reach, increase their reputation = an increase in talent.

I totally disagree with B teams as they have in other Countries. The Dutch B teams have poor support - no away fans. The football league has strength in depth and is not THE problem. The EPL should look at the model it creates itself and think about quotas / why teams stockpile talent they are taking a punt on v playing.

[madmax]

One thing not mentioned is the categorisation of the academy set up from Cat 1 - Cat 4. I don't think we are seeing the benefits or it's failures in this design yet as it's still in it's infancy. Many outside the Prem, me included, were against this as it was just a feeding and breeding ground for Prem clubs to nick the best players at a cheaper rate.

 

My son has been in a professional academy for 5 years and scouts are at every game but rarely will you see a lad move for a fee under the age of 16 to another club particularly from this area so his development must continue at Cat 2 (Bristol City) Cat 3 (Bristol R*vers) or elsewhere Cat 3 Swindon, Exeter and now the likes of up and coming Yeovil.

 

And yes....Yeovil. A new academy being set up after 5 years of it being scrapped and mainly being funded by...yep you guessed it...Southampton! This helps Southampton develop players in this area and allows the ones that don't make it at Cat 1 to go to Cat 3 and continue it's development. Right or wrong, this will strengthen Southampton even further as like my son based in Bristol, he won't be able to benefit from the technology on offer at Cat 1 clubs because of where he lives.  Does this mean him, his team mates and other kids in Bristol and the surrounding areas are not future England internationals? In fact, out of the current England squad, who were born in Bristol or the surrounding areas.

 

I think the South West as a whole have done and will continue to do so - struggle with the likes of North West, North East, London and now Southampton.

 

MM

[cidered abroad]

The point of OUR academy when it was set up was to avoid having a squad full of ageing pros on big wages. It was never set up to produce wonder kids. Is it worth having? Currently I'd say the jury is out, if you look at the results over its lifetime.

And no, I don't agree with b teams. They only suit premier league clubs interests, certainly not the interest of Bristol City.

What would I do? Give Wade Elliot a chance for starters, as it is his job to bring players through.

As Spudski states in reply to this, it is what is happening well below Wade Elliott's position in the chain. How we treat 7 and 8 year olds until they become 16 and then making good decisions about who will eventually make it to be a League player. This is not and never can be a precise science.

But it is how club's develop these 16 year olds that is the crux of the problem. Many years ago, Joe Mercer when manager at Man City, said we are good at bringing players to youth level, under 18 in those day. But the next step is where the real problem lies.

Now it is under 21 but still the same conundrum.

1 or 2% of Under 21's will sail happily onwards into full League players. Geoff Merrick and Gerry Gow did it at 17 years foir City. Wayne Rooney at Everton.

But the next best 8/10% struggle to pit their young bodies and brains against hardened professionals who are street wise. The boys have all the technical ability but how does one give a nineteen year old, ten years league experience?

Playing against others of the same age, they will not develop quickly enough. So, in my opinion, while I am against B team concept, my solution is similar. At seventeen/eighteen send them on loan to local clubs like Taunton, Weston, Bath and FGR. They can still play for City in Development games.

And finally, Matt Busby was doing it years ago. Place the youngsters who come from afar, with families where they can have a stable place to live and have some life away from football, rather than hostels full of other young ones.

[JoeAman08]

As someone not as familiar with this aspect of football as others, I can see there is a problem but don't know who makes good points or not. One that does jump out is Harry's. Most of the premier league is foreign and it has a trickle down effect to all clubs. It needs to be capped. There is EU law but the FA as an entity can make a ruling to cap the amount of any player outside of England.

Also there should be a cap on the number of players not in the squad. So anyone not it the first 25, cap them as well. It does no good for the larger clubs to snatch up all the talent and let it waste until they're 22-24 then the go on to lower leagues.

It's definitely making it harder for English players to develop. As a lower league club we get rewarded a bit as we have quality a our level whereas if there were caps, a player like Freeman(maybe a bad example) may have gotten more of a shot at Arsenal.

[Tinmans Love Child]

For me the influx of foreign owners, means more foreign managers which means more foreign players, which means a lack of opportunities for any young players let alone British players or local players. Foreign owners are here to make money, they care not one bit for producing local talent or helping England win the World Cup etc.

However, I only see this as a big problem in the Prem currently but no doubt it will spread, certainly in the Champ.

For City, I think the problem in recent years is a lack of stability, lots of managers, and lots of pressure to get results. If it's going well on the pitch with the first team there is less pressure On the manager and maybe more opportunity for young players to come in.

[beaverface]

Two points spring to mind~:

 

1. Who does Southamptons academy play against? If the lack of competition is so rife, who do they play to get experience? Surely if City threw millions more at our academy, the same underlying problem will exist?

 

2. Rather than introducing the b league teams, why don't the FA look to see what was different back in the year 2000 and look to get back to that situation....I think we all know the answer to this!!

[Monkeh]

B teams will be the death of the lower league and would kill a lot of pro clubs and prob lead to the death of pro football outside the prem

[madmax]

Two points spring to mind~:

 

1. Who does Southamptons academy play against? If the lack of competition is so rife, who do they play to get experience? Surely if City threw millions more at our academy, the same underlying problem will exist? #

Mainly Cat 1 clubs London area and further a field. Some Cat 2's and the odd Cat 3, but games programme is CAT1 clubs.

 

2. Rather than introducing the b league teams, why don't the FA look to see what was different back in the year 2000 and look to get back to that situation....I think we all know the answer to this!!

 

1. Who does Southamptons academy play against? If the lack of competition is so rife, who do they play to get experience? Surely if City threw millions more at our academy, the same underlying problem will exist?

Mainly Cat 1 clubs London area and further a field. Some Cat 2's and the odd Cat 3, but games programme is CAT1 clubs.

[semblar]

While I fundamentally disagree with the B team proposals, there is still something enticing about the thought of potentially having a future where Bristol City B beats the Gas in a league fixture