3-5-2

[mattjtsmith]

A lot of 3-5-2 bashing going on recently.

Just wanted to make that the point that 3-5-2 is amazing.

HOWEVER, how it is implemented is the difference. 

The idea behind the formation is that if you are on the front foot, it is very much 3-5-2. 

If you are on the back foot it becomes 5-3-2. 

Somewhere in between, only one wing back at a time should go forward, for example if Litts makes a move, Joe should stay (unless really going for it) and become a part of that defence, shunting along the others to form a back 4 to cover. 

Its a demanding formation, but a fantastic one. Look where it got us last year. Our WBs just need to learn to not both drift up and get exposed. They're defensive responsibilities can't be overlooked. Its a work in progress for our young players in a new division, but we will get there. 3-5-2 will persevere!!! 

Would love to explain more but its tough without a whiteboard and pen

[nickolas]

Cheers for that Steve. 

however i do agree. I dont think its the WB's though, its2 of 3 CB's notcareering forward aswell. Ipswich there were clearly a more static back 3 so less chance of being caught on the break. 

 

[spudski]

352 is all very well....if you have two fit experienced wing backs, who know their job inside out, and have a complete understanding of their position and duties.

A wing back in this league is one of the most demanding...physically and mentally.

Young Joe is still learning his trade, but doing an admirable job, as best he can. He's got one hell of an engine.

Little is far from fit.

We have no quality cover what so ever for these positions....these two players will not last the season playing every game.

Robinson and Williams are not suited to the position....neither is Ayling or Burns on the right.

The Championship is one of the fastest, most demanding, physically and mentally Leagues in the World.

Every opposition manager so far, has mentioned how they will exploit our weaknesses....and they have done so.

You can have as much possession as you like with this formation, but lose it, if pressed high, like teams have been doing, and you will suffer the consequences.

Great formation in theory....but you need the squad and players to do it successfully at this greater level.

We succeeded in League 1 because the quality is far less, and we were very lucky with injuries and suspensions.

Can't see it working long term in this league with who we have to hand i'm afraid.

[Davefevs]

Agree with much of the above Spudski....I also think we've been a bit too eager to play the 'big' pass.  That could be the ping forward on the diagonal from Flint, or Marlon hitting a cross field pass, or the killer pass when we've not really been set.  The talk of patterns of play goes out of the window if you never really get enough time to get the players into those positions to execute what you practice in training.

the last 20 v Reading (our worst performance) was our most patient, and I actually thought we got in down the sides, created the Agard goalmouth scramble and earned a few corners. It probably gave our back three a bit if a breather too.  Reid was instrumental in that.  We move the ball side to side and moved the Reading defence around.

Also, before we are quick to discard 352, McCarthy said his team struggled against it and he had to tweak his set up.

plus it makes for an exciting game.  A few wins (hopefully) and we can all settle down a bit!!

[spudski]

Agree with much of the above Spudski....I also think we've been a bit too eager to play the 'big' pass.  That could be the ping forward on the diagonal from Flint, or Marlon hitting a cross field pass, or the killer pass when we've not really been set.  The talk of patterns of play goes out of the window if you never really get enough time to get the players into those positions to execute what you practice in training.

the last 20 v Reading (our worst performance) was our most patient, and I actually thought we got in down the sides, created the Agard goalmouth scramble and earned a few corners. It probably gave our back three a bit if a breather too.  Reid was instrumental in that.  We move the ball side to side and moved the Reading defence around.

Also, before we are quick to discard 352, McCarthy said his team struggled against it and he had to tweak his set up.

plus it makes for an exciting game.  A few wins (hopefully) and we can all settle down a bit!!

I've no doubt we have the players to create chances, keep possession etc...and it will cause teams problems, as most aren't used to playing against it.

But teams in this league have the depth and experience to adapt and tweak as McCarthy alluded to.

Yes it exciting...but because of our lack of quality, experience and depth I can't see it succeeding i'm afraid.

I can only see us continuing in the same vein...scoring....but conceding more. Teams are ruthless in this league and snap up any mistake, as we have seen.

[Guest]

I think it only needs minor adjustments to work: Joe and Mark to realise their limitations and how to play to the team's strength, I think we do need someone with a bit more aggression in the engine but most importantly I think every member of our starting eleven needs to stop being so naive and start with some of the antics we have seen. There's nothing in being a valiant loser. 

I would like to see us also show a bit more experimentation. As Spudski says I don't think that you can cobble this formation together. 

I have pretty full confidence in Joe and Mark being able to step up to the plate. Mark needs match fitness and we need to give him that with competitive game time. Joe I think is doing okay and will kick on. 

[spudski]

What I've noticed, is SC isn't having a go at Joe or whoever has been playing on the right. Both are being asked to play on the front foot and offensive.

From what I can see, it is SC's instruction and not the players making mistakes.

As the OP has mentioned....we play a long diagonal ball often for the wing back to run on to....lose possession their and you have massive problems behind.

It's a great formation if you're good at it....but an easy one to break down if not.

[Davefevs]

I still think it can be effective, but I think we need a better central midfielder than Pack.  He hasn't been bad, but we need better.

Either a big, powerful one....a championship Vieira type

Or another Korey Smith, busy, energetic, with a bit better range of passing to allow Smith to become the deeper of the three.

[JoeAman08]

We weren't the same team last year with WB other than Little and Bryan and I do think when both fit it will make a difference. Think Joe has been caught out a bit here and there. RWB has been a bit of a nightmare without Little.

I do agree that our biggest problem is our CBs getting forward a bit too much and playing the "spectacular" ball that has a low rate of success. Ayling and Williams have been way too far forward and especially at the same time as our wing backs. I love attacking football but think we do just fine with our 7 other players. The occasional run forward is fine but it way too much apart of their games at the moment. 

Think the formation and the squad will be fine long term. We just need the best out of who we have at WB as cover is hard to find and it always takes right backs a good 8-10 games to settle. Of course I think we could do better at a few positions but we have the talent to stay in the league and I believe can finish top half but it needs to start soon. Think 3 points is vital tomorrow. Not in terms of the table but in terms of confidence. 

 

[spudski]

I still think it can be effective, but I think we need a better central midfielder than Pack.  He hasn't been bad, but we need better.

Either a big, powerful one....a championship Vieira type

Or another Korey Smith, busy, energetic, with a bit better range of passing to allow Smith to become the deeper of the three.

At this level to compete successfully, I would say we need quality cover for both Bryan and Little....for reasons I mentioned earlier.

I agree we need an experienced, quality DM....someone to marshal, organise, settle and bring some experience in the middle of the park.

From what I've seen so far, SC likes a Wilbs type player up front and reluctant to play a different type of forward alongside Kodijia.

Wilbs is suffering because of this...he can't be expected to play every game. We don't have a Wilbs like player as cover.

Robinson and Agard will be sat on their arse most games imho....as will Burns and Reid.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

At this level to compete successfully, I would say we need quality cover for both Bryan and Little....for reasons I mentioned earlier.

I agree we need an experienced, quality DM....someone to marshal, organise, settle and bring some experience in the middle of the park.

From what I've seen so far, SC likes a Wilbs type player up front and reluctant to play a different type of forward alongside Kodijia.

Wilbs is suffering because of this...he can't be expected to play every game. We don't have a Wilbs like player as cover.

Robinson and Agard will be sat on their arse most games imho....as will Burns and Reid.

I can see things changing if and when things improve, I think maybe Wilbraham is baby sitting Kodjia at present, believe me the league that he came from is nowhere as physical as the one he now finds himself in, I suspect the shock of the physicality needed to survive in the English game especially coming directly from the French game and even more especially from the 2nd tier of the French game is immense.

[BCFC Jordan]

Formation isn't the problem. If we had recruited well it wouldn't be of any concern. Now we have a few bad results and people want a radical overhaul of the system, when I doubt it'd make much difference - we'd probably be worse off.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

Formation isn't the problem. If we had recruited well it wouldn't be of any concern. Now we have a few bad results and people want a radical overhaul of the system, when I doubt it'd make much difference - we'd probably be worse off.

We can all speculate, Preston and MKD have according to some recruited strongly and they are not doing much better, so even had recruited well it might have been even more of a concern.

 

[spudski]

I can see things changing if and when things improve, I think maybe Wilbraham is baby sitting Kodjia at present, believe me the league that he came from is nowhere as physical as the one he now finds himself in, I suspect the shock of the physicality needed to survive in the English game especially coming directly from the French game and even more especially from the 2nd tier of the French game is immense.

I think Wilbs and Kodijia have done remarkably well considering. Agree it's by far one of the most physically demanding leagues in the world.

I've seen nothing yet to suggest results will improve on a regular basis....too weak in too many places imho.

 

Formation isn't the problem. If we had recruited well it wouldn't be of any concern. Now we have a few bad results and people want a radical overhaul of the system, when I doubt it'd make much difference - we'd probably be worse off.

I don't think people want a radical overhaul...but recruitment like you say has been the problem. SC being so openly miffed in the media shows how important he has deemed it.

Think we can only hope that we improve with what we have and don't suffer any major injuries.

If Bryan was to get a long term injury...or little not improve quickly....who do we have that can play wing back consistently and with quality...? No one.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

I think Wilbs and Kodijia have done remarkably well considering. Agree it's by far one of the most physically demanding leagues in the world.

I've seen nothing yet to suggest results will improve on a regular basis....too weak in too many places imho.

 

From the little i've seen once more midfield is the problem, Pack can hit great long balls but he is not deft enough in around the box for me, the only 2 real deft touches in and around the box have come from Ayling, the first goal against Brentford and I believe one of the goals against Birmingham, the wing backs and Freeman can cross the ball well enough, but we need somebody who can unlock defences IMO.

 

 

[spudski]

From the little i've seen once more midfield is the problem, Pack can hit great long balls but he is not deft enough in around the box for me, the only 2 real deft touches in and around the box have come from Ayling, the first goal against Brentford and I believe one of the goals against Birmingham, the wing backs and Freeman can cross the ball well enough, but we need somebody who can unlock defences IMO.

I agree...as I said above....quality and experience is needed in Midfield.

Tbh....we are lacking throughout the squad. Small squad carrying injuries, hardly any experience at this level, loan players bought in at the last minute because we couldn't get the players we wanted...not enough cover or quality. It's no wonder we are struggling.

 

 

[Guest]

From the little i've seen once more midfield is the problem, Pack can hit great long balls but he is not deft enough in around the box for me, the only 2 real deft touches in and around the box have come from Ayling, the first goal against Brentford and I believe one of the goals against Birmingham, the wing backs and Freeman can cross the ball well enough, but we need somebody who can unlock defences IMO.

 

 

I agree Pack's probably the one I'd be looking to replace but I'm not sure we do need someone with a bit of flair or creativity. I think we do have enough of that throughout, especially if playing with a bit of confidence. If I could cherry pick a player to replace Pack with it'd be someone in the mould of Marvin Elliot of 2007. 

I don't want to appear as one of Pack's detractors as I don't think forging a career at this level is beyond him by any measure, and I think he's absolutely worth persevering with for some time yet. But just as SC has done with him before, I think Pack would benefit from some time outside of the first team and on the training pitch to improve. 

[Flagon]

The formation we are playing is the one best suited to the players we have. It's what brought us the most success over a season in ages. It's purely a classic case of not taking our chances along with some poor decision making at the back that's got punished straight away. No other formation would make us take chances we didn't previously or not make poor decisions. Whatever formation we turn out in they just have to be absolutely focused on their jobs to a far higher level than last season where they could perhaps get away with not taking the odd chance and making the odd hash up at the back. 

Cotts probably has a good idea of which positions are the ones where a better player could make an immediate impact but now we are up to 4 loans and injury hit too it's tricky now about what to do and who to go for first. 

I don't think we've been able to play a fully fit squad all season at the same time as trying to blend in some new players and losing one along the way. It's been a tough start but I'm confident we'll come through it