How long would you give Cotterill to turn it around?

[ChippenhamRed]

Thought it would be interesting to gauge the patience of our fan base regarding our current predicament.  Please note I am in no way advocating that we should get rid of Cotterill at this stage - I'm just interested to see the broad view of the fans.  Equally it is not meant to disrespect his achievements last season. 

Personally I would give him until the end of the calendar year, but on the basis of the recruitment disaster in the summer I would be reluctant to let him have the January transfer window if we still haven't turned it around by then.

[tts_city]

If results have not improved by the end of November I think it will be time to get someone else in, they then have a bit of time to asses the squad properly before the transfer window opens. I hope it doens come to that though.

[123456789000]

I'd give him until the end of the season. Our struggle this year seems very different to when we've been bad in previous seasons. Usually it's the whole 'they don't care' issue, but this time I'm coming around to the fact that the players might not actually be good enough, and no change in manager is going to alter that. 

We realistically have to ask ourselves what could another manager do right now that Cotts can't? 

Drop Wilbs I suppose... which would allow us to plug the midfield and stop letting every man and his dog have a run at the defence.

I've just talked myself out of my own point, well done me.

['Orns]

Impossible to say. Lose the next 5 games 0-3, would he have to go then? Or stay in touch, but still be bottom, but well within touching distance come Christmas, would he have to go then?

I don't want him to go, I think we can, and will, turn it around. Anywhere around 20th will do for me this season

[WolfOfWestStreet]

I'd give him until the end of the season and if city are relegated give him til Xmas that season. At least he knows how to win league one at a canter.

[Curr Avon]

If we don't recruit a quality, defensive central midfielder and striker before the November window closes, I fear that City will be adrift at the bottom of the Championship.

Remember, we can have a maximum of 5 loan players in our matchday squad, but are still allowed 8 during a season:

See: http://www.football-league.co.uk/global/section6.aspx

52.2.1 A maximum of 5 loan Players (Standard, International, Emergency or Youth) can be named in the Players listed on a team sheet for any individual match played under the auspices of The League.  This figure shall include any additional loan of a goalkeeper approved by the Executive under the provisions of Regulation 54.
Read more at http://www.football-league.co.uk/global/section6.aspx#rVuSxGYsc5euWTQJ.99

 

53.2.5 A Loaning Club can have a maximum of 4 Players under 23 and a further 4 Players over 23 registered on a Standard Loan during any Season.  The deadline for determining a Player’s age in this respect shall be 30 June prior to the Season in which the Standard Loan is intended to take place.  
Read more at http://www.football-league.co.uk/global/section6.aspx#rVuSxGYsc5euWTQJ.99

 

[Guest]

Hard to say. Right now he has my full backing but if he sets us up like he did v MK Dons second half I'm sure my patience would very quickly change. I wouldn't put a points target on it that's for certain. I think it'd have to be gauged by how close we are in those games we do not win.

This summer's transfer window was a mess. But over the course of his reign I think Cotterill has shown an eye for a player - albeit he might need to tone down the 'stature'.  He's probably the one man I would want to go into the January window with in spite of how unpopular people will tell us he is. 

Any new man might want to change the system, for instance, and for me that's too much too soon with our personnel and what that might mean for transfer targets. We could easily fall in to the trap we were last time around with a squad of other people's choosing and little cohesion. I still see SC by a long shot as our best (at least) short and medium term option. 

 

[Mendip City]

I've said end of the season but I find the question hard to answer as I firmly believe we are in this, current, position due to the poor transfer window. What I don't know is whose fault that was. Cotterill, Burt, Pelling, Lansdown etc etc (I know Pelling has gone). Or a combination.

Whoever is responsible should go... If suitable players weren't identified by the Head of Recruitment or funds weren't made available by the board or the budget set was unrealistic, if the strategy is wrong (for example was there a refusal to sign older players?) are all factors that should dictate who is at fault....

of course it could all be down to poor tactics and poor team selection.... but I feel there's more to it and would be surprised if SC has suddenly lost it following last season's success. If others have cocked it up he should stay. 

[ChippenhamRed]

Hard to say. Right now he has my full backing but if he sets us up like he did v MK Dons second half I'm sure my patience would very quickly change. I wouldn't put a points target on it that's for certain. I think it'd have to be gauged by how close we are in those games we do not win.

This summer's transfer window was a mess. But over the course of his reign I think Cotterill has shown an eye for a player - albeit he might need to tone down the 'stature'.  He's probably the one man I would want to go into the January window with in spite of how unpopular people will tell us he is. 

Any new man might want to change the system, for instance, and for me that's too much too soon with our personnel and what that might mean for transfer targets. We could easily fall in to the trap we were last time around with a squad of other people's choosing and little cohesion. I still see SC by a long shot as our best (at least) short and medium term option. 

 

You've put together a very good case in his favour here 29AR, good post.

[Chairman Mao]

3 points are required from the next 3 games or he should go

[Sniper]

I'd give him until the end of the season. Our struggle this year seems very different to when we've been bad in previous seasons. Usually it's the whole 'they don't care' issue, but this time I'm coming around to the fact that the players might not actually be good enough, and no change in manager is going to alter that. 

We realistically have to ask ourselves what could another manager do right now that Cotts can't? 

Drop Wilbs I suppose... which would allow us to plug the midfield and stop letting every man and his dog have a run at the defence.

I've just talked myself out of my own point, well done me.

Unfortunately I'm starting to think the same and I'm fearful that we are in serious trouble. 

[Barrs Court Red]

Personally I would say untill this time next year, however on current form he'll be gone by November due to fan pressure.

[cidered abroad]

I consider that his remarks about the second half performance versus MK Dons are blaming the players rather than his tactics or team selection.

He strikes me as a very impatient person and I have a very strong feeling that if results do not improve by December, he will walk away.

Thus being able to maintain his stated proud record of never having taken a team down.

[Lew-T]

I'd give him until Christmas the chance to better our results, not turn our season around!

It's been 10 games....

[BCFC Jordan]

Unless we're rock bottom and it seems he's lost the players' confidence, I'd let him stay even if we're in the relegation zone. After the summer we had, he's not a miracle worker. Doubt anyone else could come in and do even marginally better, and he gave us our best season in fifty years.

 

 

[Guest wheatus59]

I'd give him until the end of the season and if city are relegated give him til Xmas that season. At least he knows how to win league one at a canter.

Are you being serious ?

[And Its Smith]

Take it in ten game chunks.  He's done enough to warrant another ten for sure.  

I think the main thing is to show progress.  As long as there are signs of progress then that's okay.

i think that is what did for Brendan Rodgers - there was no signs that Liverpool were improving so he had to go. 

[Marina's Rolls Royce]

We're pretty much stuck with the current squad til Jan.

In Jan our chances of getting 'Championship ready' players who can make a real difference will depend on the position we're in much more than the money that's made available which I suspect could be plenty. I agree with what Spud has been saying about BCFC not being a particularly sexy football club and also that not everyone will want to play for Steve. Combine that with still being in a relegation position and we are highly unlikely to attract the right type of player.

So the most likely man to turn things  around with this  squad  remains Steve Cotterill both in practice and by default. I certainly will remain behind him and his players for the next ten games or so before wallowing in an unpleasant "Cotts out" campaign. 

Steve, if any reminder is needed, is a very experienced Manager, has a credible track record in football and despite what anyone says, will live, think and breathe BCFC. This guy will fight as hard as anyone-probably harder and I really believe us fans should continue our passionate support not because we owe it to him but because it's just plain common sense.

[oldstandrobin]

We're pretty much stuck with the current squad til Jan.

In Jan our chances of getting 'Championship ready' players who can make a real difference will depend on the position we're in much more than the money that's made available which I suspect could be plenty. I agree with what Spud has been saying about BCFC not being a particularly sexy football club and also that not everyone will want to play for Steve. Combine that with still being in a relegation position and we are highly unlikely to attract the right type of player.

So the most likely man to turn things  around with this  squad  remains Steve Cotterill both in practice and by default. I certainly will remain behind him and his players for the next ten games or so before wallowing in an unpleasant "Cotts out" campaign. 

Steve, if any reminder is needed, is a very experienced Manager, has a credible track record in football and despite what anyone says, will live, think and breathe BCFC. This guy will fight as hard as anyone-probably harder and I really believe us fans should continue our passionate support not because we owe it to him but because it's just plain common sense.

[BCFC_Dan]

If we were in the same position with a different manager we'd be starting to make lists of possible replacements. I reckon Steve Cotterill would be near the top of that list.

He's experienced, has contacts, has managed in the Championship before, including keeping Portsmouth up when they were an absolute basket case. He's what you would call a "safe pair of hands" and he'd be near the top of the list for any club in our position.

Therefore, the thing to do is to stick with him. I know there's a difference between coming in fresh and having 18 months in the job and new managers often produce an initial upturn in fortunes but these things cut both ways and he'll have other advantages from being here so long.

What he may need to do, if we're still struggling in a couple of months, is take a step back and approach the job as if he'd just been hired to fight a fire. His commitment to attacking football has been admiral and it may still come good, but if it doesn't do so soon then he should consider returning to the style of football he was previously known for: simple, direct, solid, effective. If he does that he should be able to keep us up and he can return to the attacking style next season after a summer of recruitment that simply cannot be as bad as the last one.

[ashton_fan]

His position will be reviewed in December if we're still in the bottom three but could be sooner if we start to get tailed off at the bottom. I don't think SL could contemplate relegation and would feel he had to do something. If we're out of the bottom 3 in December then he must be given until the end of the season, with another transfer window to fix some of the problems.

[ontariored]

My thoughts are that it is due to a poor summer recruitment and because we don't know the inside door knowledge on the approval of spending I would say all the management carry the blame including Cotts. times have changed in the Championship and it seems our Management regards player valuations did not happen until August 5th. All the management at BCFC should have their asses kicked.

[gamon]

October 31st 2016.

[Guest Bcfc mike88]

Needs to go if he ain't listening keeps to the same squad and formation .. Everybody telling him to drop wilbs , !!! Won't listen needs to get gone . 

[Red-Robbo]

Although I've been critical of Steve recently he has built up a bank of goodwill with me that makes me opt for him for at least this season. 

Chopping and changing managers has never benefited us. Or anyone else much.

[WolfOfWestStreet]

Are you being serious ?

of course. Burnley didn't sack Dyche when he took them up and went down, why should we do the same with Cotterill.

i am soooo tired of instability and the soap opera of mangerial merry go rounds. Just back the guy in charge and stop winging - what happened in the summer is done, nothing can be done about it now, get over it and back the players we've got. What is playing the blame game going to achieve?

some of the team might be a bit raw still and lack experience in this league but none of them are shite, they are a young team with loads of potential what they don't need is a hard time when they marginally come up short sometimes, it's going to happen. 

 

 

[Sir Colby-Tit]

I fear his stubbornness will prove to be his downfall. He doesn't seem to be willing/able to drop Wilbs or try a different formation, both of which are now overdue IMO.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Spoons]

3 points are required from the next 3 games or he should go

I want more than 3 bloody points!!

[ChippenhamRed]

Er, this is another bizarre topic on OTIB..

We are 1 point from 19th and 2 wins away from 14th or thereabouts.

Talk of doom and relegation battles and 'turning it around' are at this stage insanely premature. 

If we were cut adrift, this panicking may have some point, however at this stage, blimey. 

A win or draw vs Forest, will see us out of the relegation zone comfortably as not everyone will win or draw this weekend, and even if they were to, we'd still be a point or so within a decent position.Bolton and Preston have tough games and Rotherham and Brentford are playing each other

Madness!

Why is it bizarre to talk about "turning it around" when we are currently sitting bottom of the Championship, with a paper thin squad that has won just one match in 10?  Clearly that needs to change, which is exactly what is meant by "turning it around" - even if it does only require a couple of wins to do it.

I think I was quite clear in my opening post that I was not advocating the removal of Cotterill at this stage and was simply trying to gauge the patience of the fanbase, should the current poor form continue.  It is not "madness" or "panicking" to discuss this hypothetical prospect, it's a reasonable point for discussion.

[Guest bristol south end]

Er, this is another bizarre topic on OTIB..

We are 1 point from 19th and 2 wins away from 14th or thereabouts.

Talk of doom and relegation battles and 'turning it around' are at this stage insanely premature. 

If we were cut adrift, this panicking may have some point, however at this stage, blimey. 

A win or draw vs Forest, will see us out of the relegation zone comfortably as not everyone will win or draw this weekend, and even if they were to, we'd still be a point or so within a decent position.Bolton and Preston have tough games and Rotherham and Brentford are playing each other

Madness!

Happy to bet you £20 that we go down this season

[Spoons]

give him till the end of season. What happens if he is replaced, new boss spends £5 million and we still go down? Do we sack new boss?

[WolfOfWestStreet]

Happy to bet you £20 that we go down this season

an example why we have some of the  worst fans going sometimes. It's like you actually want us to fail.

[Barrs Court Red]

Happy to bet you £20 that we go down this season

before the MK game I'd of happily taken that.

Now.....Not so confident

[Lord Northski]

 

When he arrived nearly 2 years ago he had the personality and formula to turn around a side used to loosing. He appears to have lost that knack, something he would probably admit in private. If we don't change something we will be relegated. Either buy (or loan) the players we intended to in the summer, although who in their right mind will want to come to the team at the bottom of the table, or change the manager.

I am not blaming SC for the transfer fiasco, clearly that's the boards fault, with their outdated ideas on wages.  If they want to dig themselves out of the whole they've dug for themselves, it's going to be very expensive to buy in talent to save us. Or change the manager with the hope that he can re-enthuse the players to play out of their skins. 

Either way, a decision has to be made now, or latest by end of October. We're going down fast at the moment and we're on target to concede nearly as many goals as we scored last season. 

 

[Marina's Rolls Royce]

It's bizarre because we are only bottom on GD, we are a whole entire point from 19th and safety and 6 whole points from 14th ish.

Form wise we are around 19th and have only actually lost one game in the last four.

To say that it needs turning around is myopic and full of knee jerk and as i've stated previously imo it's because a portion of city fans seem to think that we have this divine right to a) be flourishing in this league and b) be some kind of superforce.

Discussions like this would have much more pertinence and merit if as said we were rock bottom and getting spanked week in week out. We arent, yet here we are panic stations, discussing 'fan base' patience because of completely self perpetuated expectations that we should be brilliant. Instead of taking a step back and being objective, the panic's taken over and many seem to be all of a fluster, over nothing at this stage,

 

Why? Seems defeatist

I think both you and Chip Red make equally valid points. Am I myopic?

 

However, I will formally take £20 bets from anyone ( up to 5 people) that we'll stay up. Entirely based on

1) optimism and blind faith

2) Steve Cotterill's record at any level

3) How we've been playing generally this season ( outsmarted but not outplayed)

4) Steve Lansdown's necessary closer oversight

 

[TNBT]

I've voted for end December as was in-between my indecision of end of Nov/mid Dec and giving him the Jan transfer window til seasons end only problem with that is we Can Not afford to get relegated imo, I'd like to think Cotts could turn it round but it's his stubbornness that worries me and the fact that we had since May to get our transfers sorted but failed to do this so will giving him Jan one be sufficient, also him being such a marmite manager will he be able to get the players we want/need all very hard to decide on and glad it's SL not me having to make these decisions. The good thing is as others have said we've not been playing as bad as our league position says so hopefully we climb the table before the start of Nov as hope SC can still be here and help establish us as the championship team we should be. 

[Gillies Downs Leeds]

Happy to bet you £20 that we go down this season

Why would you offer this bet when you can get 4-1 at the bookies. They have faith in us.

[ChippenhamRed]

It's bizarre because we are only bottom on GD, we are a whole entire point from 19th and safety and 6 whole points from 14th ish.

Form wise we are around 19th and have only actually lost one game in the last four.

To say that it needs turning around is myopic and full of knee jerk and as i've stated previously imo it's because a portion of city fans seem to think that we have this divine right to a) be flourishing in this league and b) be some kind of superforce.

Discussions like this would have much more pertinence and merit if as said we were rock bottom and getting spanked week in week out. We arent, yet here we are panic stations, discussing 'fan base' patience because of completely self perpetuated expectations that we should be brilliant. Instead of taking a step back and being objective, the panic's taken over and many seem to be all of a fluster, over nothing at this stage,

 

Why? Seems defeatist

Not wanting to be relegated hardly equates to an expectation that we flourish or should be a "superforce" or "brilliant". I believe most people are realistic about their expectations for the season. It's hardly unreasonable to be concerned about being bottom of the table, even at this early stage.

I don't quite understand how you can  argue that the current situation doesn't need "turning around". What exactly is it that you would like to continue as it is? It's hardly a kneejerk reaction to say that the current situation cannot continue indefinitely.

"Panicking" would be saying "Sack him now". Asking "How long would you allow the current situation to continue before considering a change" is a measured response and a pertinent question. It does not assume the situation will continue as it is - it simply asks what we would do if it did. Hardly panicking.

[ChippenhamRed]

apologies double post

[Andy082005]

I just can't fathom out what's gone wrong. It's incredible when you think about it. Only we could do it.

My hunch is this debacle lies at the feet of the board. Cotterill was given the tools last season....and he delivered. For what ever reason this year, the same hasn't happened...and it's an absolute travesty.

Don't get me wrong, Cotterill has to shoulder some of the blame here. It's almost like he has had a tantrum, got stubborn....and refused to sign ANY players just because he wasnt allowed the wages to sign his first choice players.

My opinion...I think he will be gone by the end of October. It's not what I want but I honestly think he will be. I have zero faith in our board and haven't for a few years now. They have proved time and time again that they do not have a clue when it comes to establishing this club as a Championship club. Nothing I see has changed my mind.

I understand Lansdown has pumped a sh*t load of money into the club, but let's not forget it's only clearing up the debts of his mis-management and his bad decisions. Have said before, if I rack up £20k on credit cards or a failed business venture...it's my responsibility to pay it back.  I've never understood why some people make out like he is some kind of messiah because he "clears our debts".

It's his debts!

I've said time and time again, the way this club is ran is completely amateur. I know I will get shot down as over reacting...or a merchant of doom, but I truely believe this is going to be a disaster of a season for us.

Would love to be proved wrong, but with this board's track record....I don't think I will 

 

[ashton_fan]

Looking at Cotts record at previous clubs he's only really been sacked once, at Burnley, and at that point was the longest serving manager in the league at 3 yrs 7 months, and they were only 15th in the Championship at the time. All the other times he's moved it's been his choice, generally to move to a better position. The only exceptions are Forest where he went after a change of ownership and Sunderland where he was only the assistant. He's never got a club relegated as a manager so it looks as though we should stick with him, I can't see us getting anyone better.

[ChippenhamRed]

Nope it doesnt, you are quite right, however, there are of plenty examples in this thread and others whereby people have pretty much out and ou tsaid, this is a relegation season, we will be relegated, etc. This is on the back of expectations of finishing in the playoffs or higher, with very few including myself saying that safety would be a decent finish, especially given that we really struggle with this league and have done for donkeys.

It is unreasonable imo to be worried at 'this stage' we cant get relegated after friday's game, and if we were to win that, the way teams are in the bottom 3 in terms of who they are playing and possible results we would very likely not be in it come Sat evening. Harder with a draw because of GD, but there is not going to be significant movement this weekend, even if we were to lose. Is one of those game weeks I think. 

Me, personally, I'd be worried if we had been trounced, not just played badly in patches, but i mean obliterated as we were done several times under GJ, SOD and Del. As stated we are 1 loss in 4 which is a start, and is not utterly rubbish or futile to think that we have a base to come from. If the draws turn to losses then yeah, be worried, which is what I said about being premature having this discussion just yet, note didnt say wasnt worthy.

 

 

We have form of a sort and arent losing, we are scoring and it's getting there, slowly, yup as ive freely admitted didnt see Sat, but accept 2nd half was awful. However, the rest of it is encouraging for the main despite the position in the league we are in. At this stage league position isnt that important, us getting points is, and we are getting them.

No where has it been said that this 'situation' will continue, however our current 'form' will actually mean in all likelyhood stay up, if extrapolated over the rest of the season, knee jerk is talking about it as if it is really really important now, it isnt. mindful of, yes get it. Calling to arms as if it's determined that is where we are going to stay, then definitely kneejerk based on history and alarm.

 

It's a negatively loaded question as it makes the assumption that we are in a pickle, proof (apart from league table, which many are using as a yardstick) actually says other wise, so it's not actually that measured.

If in another 10 games, our league position has not improved would people consider making a change or what options would they like to see explored? would be a fairer hypothetical

Two things:-

- Of course it's reasonable to be concerned when you're bottom of the league, even if it is only 10 games.

- It is completely ridiculous to say that we shouldn't use the league table as a yardstick.

I'll add another point:-

- You claim our current form would keep us up. 3 points from 5 games most certainly would not.

[Guest]

Two things:-

- Of course it's reasonable to be concerned when you're bottom of the league, even if it is only 10 games.

- It is completely ridiculous to say that we shouldn't use the league table as a yardstick.

I'll add another point:-

- You claim our current form would keep us up. 3 points from 5 games most certainly would not.

It is completely ridiculous to use the league table at this point as a yardstick, in my opinion. It's hardly fair and reasonable and you can't really use it to draw a comparison between say us and Bolton etc. Even if you take average positions of teams we've faced that in itself is skewed again because not each team has faced up against one another  

We are still at the point whereby Freeman's 3.5game absence, some of the poor refereeing, out of form players for example could each be argued to have had a dramatic impact on our current league position. Those arguments won't hold true over 46 games though. 

Come the end Jan/Feb I agree it starts to settle. But I'll never be able to agree it means much at this point. Someone did post a few weeks back how teams generally fared in our then position, more often than not they were not relegated. Evidence enough the league table, after 10 games, is no yardstick for how it will pan out.   

 

[ChippenhamRed]

It is completely ridiculous to use the league table at this point as a yardstick, in my opinion. It's hardly fair and reasonable and you can't really use it to draw a comparison between say us and Bolton etc. Even if you take average positions of teams we've faced that in itself is skewed again because not each team has faced up against one another  

We are still at the point whereby Freeman's 3.5game absence, some of the poor refereeing, out of form players for example could each be argued to have had a dramatic impact on our current league position. Those arguments won't hold true over 46 games though. 

Come the end Jan/Feb I agree it starts to settle. But I'll never be able to agree it means much at this point. Someone did post a few weeks back how teams generally fared in our then position, more often than not they were not relegated. Evidence enough the league table, after 10 games, is no yardstick for how it will pan out.   

 

Fair enough 29AR, you make some good points. The league table is certainly not the be-all-and-end-all at this stage, you're right. But it does at least give you a good idea of how you're team is doing, and it's the only "yardstick" we have to go on when comparing ourselves with all the other teams - whilst acknowledging it is never a truly fair measure until everyone has played everyone else home and away after 46 games.

[Guest]

Fair enough 29AR, you make some good points. The league table is certainly not the be-all-and-end-all at this stage, you're right. But it does at least give you a good idea of how you're team is doing, and it's the only "yardstick" we have to go on when comparing ourselves with all the other teams - whilst acknowledging it is never a truly fair measure until everyone has played everyone else home and away after 46 games.

Don't get me wrong SOD not even looking at it was a bloody stupid comment to my mind. It's very imperfect but it does shows the task in hand: we need to make up X points to get in target for Y for example.

So far I see it as saying little more than there is very little between teams thus far and individual bits of luck/bad luck are significant per current position. It'd be harsh therefore to draw too much from it re SC's performance. 

[Guest bristol south end]

 

Its not thou really is it.  The worse fans in the country are Nottingham Forrest and Leeds supporters with their we are massive sides.  What is to fail.  We have many fans like myself who have been watching lower league football for many many years.  I starting going in 1983, it was a great place to be.  I loved going to Aston gate.  Loved going to away games.  Loved having a team to support.  Loved the manager and players.  Loved the club to bits.   I have not had those types of experiences at Bristol City since then.  I see a massive fail with what football has become.  Bristol City are trying the hardest to become a part of this.  Or Steve money man Landsdown is.  The game i love died a sad death many years ago.  Once the big bucks came in. 

If we should become a part of the top fight, i will not care any more.  I will support the club like any other tv football fan up and down the country.   Friends don't even talk to me about their prem sides as i couldn't care less.  I am not even really into the championship.  Once those mad desperate bids started to take place, i really started to lose interest.

I stand by what i said.  Bristol city will go down this season.  The writing has been on the wall since the lack of signings, the massive cock up within the club to be able to successfully compete at this level.  Do i want us to do well here and become a part of that, no not really. 

Which is why i now support my local club where i live as well as Bristol City.  I go and watch Sailsbury FC along with 650 other people.  And you know what.  I have a great day out like i use to at Aston gate in the 1980's.  Its great to feel connected to football gain

 

 

 

 

[Tinmans Love Child]

As long as it's close down the bottom and we are not cut adrift I think we would be mad to ditch SC, currently it's very tight and although we would prefer not to be bottom, we were so close to gaining an extra 4 points in the last 2 games which would have put us 17th and only 4 points behind the likes of QPR and Sheff Wed who spent a bomb this summer.  Yeh if my Aunty had balls she'd be my Uncle but it shows the fine margins, and the difference a couple of wins would make.  Yes we need to turn things around soon but at least we are scoring goals and not getting completely spanked!  Plus our away form isn't half bad really, especially having played some of the bigger teams.  So basically Keep the Faith, not my words, the words of Jon Bon Jovi!

[Bris Red]

End if December for me. I do however feel if we have a disastrous next month or so (fail to pick up a win and lose the majority) and find ourselves getting cut adrift before December it wouldnt suprise me to see the board make a sudden move.. They have done it before and will again IMO if that happens.

For what it is worth though I personally feel the manager will turn it around and the above wont happen. 

[RedYoshi]

I didn't really know in which of the myriad of slightly depressing topics to add this point, but this seems as good as any - mainly because I generally agree wholeheartedly with @RalphMilnesLeftFoot and @29AR, whilst accepting that the question is essentially "if we stay at the bottom, when do we make a change?" which isn't really making a judgement of any kind, but more posing a question which could, essentially, be asked at any time.

Anyway, the vague point I wanted to make was the fact that, whilst the 2nd half on Saturday was incredibly disappointing, it gives me more hope that it was down to how poorly we played.

That sounds mental, I know, but to me it shows that we have control over our fate. We were clearly the better team in the first half, and MK Dons were only better in the second due to our poor decision making. Had we been played off the park despite playing to the best of our ability, then I'd be worried - there would be nothing we could do if one of the other "worst" teams in the league was outright better than us.

Instead, it suggests to me that, with a bit more confidence/focus/application - whatever - we can improve our own fortunes. That's far better than coming away from matches thinking we've done everything we can do and yet still not winning.

When there are no improvements we can make, and we're still rock bottom - that's when I'll be worried.

[RumRed]

Why would you offer this bet when you can get 4-1 at the bookies. They have faith in us.

Well that's me convinced.

[Guest Francis]

I really dont believe we are having this particular topic. It's all "if's & buts" .Had a couple of the close games been wins we would be mid table & loveing it. I think Cotts should be given as long as it takes, we've had all the changes of management before & achieved stuff all. Get the tranfer market & wage problems sorted & I feel sure this young group will deliver. SL surely has too much invested to cause instability again.

[Bs4Red]

I know for a fact that Cotts doesn't have many friends left at AG, he fell out with JL and SL over transfers in the summer and was nose to nose with Pembo in Portugal, which may be why they didn't sit together at the last U21 game at home.

Id love to see him turn it around but with not many at AG a big fan I feel something has to happen quickly!

[Up The City!]

Do we give him extra time because of last season and run the risk of results not improving or do we bite the bullet and get rid soonish to give a new man plenty of time to turn it around? 

[Palmers Green Red]

Think it is about expectations ... my end of season expectations were middle of the bottom half, so not too far away from this.

Like many, have concerns over the performance against Reading and 2nd half against MK, but we are only 10 games in so a long way to go ... think an early knee jerk sacking would be the wrong answer (nothing to back this up, just my gut feel).

 

COYR

[bemmyredjeff]

2 games apparently !

[spudski]

I want SC to turn it around as I think all of us want stability. However, he is clearly barking up the wrong tree with his tactics, and for him not to be sacked, he has to set the team up with a chance of actually competing. Tactical everyone is doing a job on us and he has done nothing to counter that. I really expected more from him, as he clearly understands the game. I totally accept the squad is miles off, it is missing still 5 players as we have people on the bench who did not play in L1 . It is not easy for him, but equally, he has to make us harder to beat asap. It is the lack of progress that worries me and would force a change. Why do other teams adapt tactics in a game, yet we stick to the same system rigidly. It is all so hard now as we lost the mentality of winning, the confidence of promotion. Of course the summer transfers totally destroyed that, we have a L1 squad essentially in the Championship, we have limited cover in key positions, namely wing backs, which makes sticking to the formation he wants is madness in extreme. He has to get a back 4 working asap imho , as he at least has a few more options at full back. If things are not improved, it will look like he is out of his depth, and a change will be needed in Nov. After 10 games, if anyone thinks we are in for anything but a relegation battle playing as we are then it would be surprising. We are getting worse not better, that on its own is another sign that we must do something different. 

I really don't think SC is ever going to detract from 352 BW.

The whole Club has been set up to play that way....all the development teams play that way too.

Every player he's brought in or tried to bring in, was brought in specifically to play in the 352 system.

Fredericks for one, was because he could play Wing back.....that ended well....

Robinson baffles me....I have no idea where he fits in this team.

For the life of me, I can't remember whether SC has played to this system so rigidly at previous Clubs...anyone know?

What crossed my mind...was is this 352 system totally SC's idea....something put together by SC and Burt....or the 'Club' trying to create a 'Bristol City way' of playing....a Club philosophy?

 

 

[Kid in the Riot]

I'm looking at the next 3 games personally, 2 of which are on TV.

Forest (H)

Brighton (A)

Cardiff (A)

Defeat to Cardiff obviously won't go down at all well - I can't see where the points are coming from in these games at the moment.

Also got half an eye on the November International break w/c 9th November, which if a change needs to be made, would seem an optimum time to do it with two weeks without a game. That would give SC Wolves (H), Bolton (A) and Hull (H).

Gut feeling is that if we don't beat Forest we may capitulate at Brighton and Cardiff and that could be the end of that.

[Phileas Fogg]

We simply cannot get relegated; it will be massively embarrassing for the club, and a financial white elephant, to have a good 27000 seater in league 1. Relegation would be an unmitigated disaster.

This, I think, may force the board's collective hand earlier than expected if things don't improve. As KITR said, that international break would be opportune to bed in a new manager. 3 tough games coming up too. 

[RedM]

I really don't think SC is ever going to detract from 352 BW.

The whole Club has been set up to play that way....all the development teams play that way too.

Every player he's brought in or tried to bring in, was brought in specifically to play in the 352 system.

Fredericks for one, was because he could play Wing back.....that ended well....

Robinson baffles me....I have no idea where he fits in this team.

For the life of me, I can't remember whether SC has played to this system so rigidly at previous Clubs...anyone know?

What crossed my mind...was is this 352 system totally SC's idea....something put together by SC and Burt....or the 'Club' trying to create a 'Bristol City way' of playing....a Club philosophy?

 

 

immediately after Saturdays match I met up with a Gashead mate. Naturally he was on a high after their 90 th minuite  winner, and I was just the opposite (it still feels like a loss to me). They had also won away in the week, scoring goals for fun apparently. Now I know little about the Gas formations or anything, but my Gashead mate is adamant that their change in fortune has come about as Dopey Darryl ( my words not his) saw what wasn't working and changed the formation. I see they have since won again last night.

My point is that if Dopey can change his limited squad and improve results surly we have the means to do so? whether we do us another thing, but I would hate to think that Dopey Darryl is a better manager than Cotterill for doing just that.

[spudski]

immediately after Saturdays match I met up with a Gashead mate. Naturally he was on a high after their 90 th minuite  winner, and I was just the opposite (it still feels like a loss to me). They had also won away in the week, scoring goals for fun apparently. Now I know little about the Gas formations or anything, but my Gashead mate is adamant that their change in fortune has come about as Dopey Darryl ( my words not his) saw what wasn't working and changed the formation. I see they have since won again last night.

My point is that if Dopey can change his limited squad and improve results surly we have the means to do so? whether we do us another thing, but I would hate to think that Dopey Darryl is a better manager than Cotterill for doing just that.

And that's what makes a good manager imho RedM....the willingness to try things, have a belief, but man enough to change, and admit it isn't working when it doesn't.

I get the impression SC is a very stubborn man and would cut off his nose to spite his face.

In hindsight....there is nothing wrong with the 352 system....it's a great formation to play....offensive and expansive.

However....you have to have the players to play it....depth of squad and quality competition. Plus not playing unfit players in many games.

We don't have that....that imho, is why it isn't working.

 

[Colombo Robin]

Say we were to go down, who is there that would be better at getting us back up again? 

[Superjack]

I personally fear that the monumental cluster***k of the summer has set us on a trajectory where the most likely outcome is a bottom three finish. 

Defeatist?... probably, and of course it's early so hopefully that fear will prove unfounded. Unfortunately I can't honestly see the January transfer window, which we are already forced to clutch at as a solution, as providing any major rectification when valuations are likely to be inflated and our league position is likely to be a poor one.

No matter at whose door the blame lies for the summer, it has been and gone and left us in a situation where we will in all likelyhood be facing the whole season with a weaker squad than last seasons.

This is why I state the concern of the first paragraph and why I also feel that a change of management would be a huge gamble that may very well not change this seasons end result. Whether we like it or not, as a club we have to contemplate the 'unthinkable' and keep in mind a contingency plan for League One. 

If the best man to help us with that is already here, then perhaps he should be afforded the opportunity to avoid that scenario and keep us where, he after all, has got us.

That said, if the rumours of major disharmony surrounding that man have any truth, the aforementioned will prove irrelevant.

[Guest]

We have had the easy games.. Preston, MK, Brentford... 

Brentford is an interesting one. You say now that it was an easy game however rewind to when we played them and they were stronger by the tune of a £9m striker (who happened to score no less) and were roundly considered play-off candidates.

 

[Linkedarm wall]

Picking on the wrong bloke here I reckon. If someone has to be sacked, as that is the football way, Mr Burt to go first IMO. With regard to Cotts, yes you could argue lets change the system and perhaps we should. However players  need to be good enough, no matter what the system. Lets take the full backs if we were to play 4 at the back, which most seem to want.  Little/Ayling - Bryan/Williams, anyone think that any of these are good enough as out and out full backs in the Championship? I'm not so sure, Cotts is apparently even less sure!

[Major Isewater]

As long as it's close down the bottom and we are not cut adrift I think we would be mad to ditch SC, currently it's very tight and although we would prefer not to be bottom, we were so close to gaining an extra 4 points in the last 2 games which would have put us 17th and only 4 points behind the likes of QPR and Sheff Wed who spent a bomb this summer.  Yeh if my Aunty had balls she'd be my Uncle but it shows the fine margins, and the difference a couple of wins would make.  Yes we need to turn things around soon but at least we are scoring goals and not getting completely spanked!  Plus our away form isn't half bad really, especially having played some of the bigger teams.  So basically Keep the Faith, not my words, the words of Jon Bon Jovi!

We need to hold on to what we got .

[Major Isewater]

Picking on the wrong bloke here I reckon. If someone has to be sacked, as that is the football way, Mr Burt to go first IMO. With regard to Cotts, yes you could argue lets change the system and perhaps we should. However players  need to be good enough, no matter what the system. Lets take the full backs if we were to play 4 at the back, which most seem to want.  Little/Ayling - Bryan/Williams, anyone think that any of these are good enough as out and out full backs in the Championship? I'm not so sure, Cotts is apparently even less sure!

sack everyone. 

[Major Isewater]

I personally fear that the monumental cluster***k of the summer has set us on a trajectory where the most likely outcome is a bottom three finish. 

Defeatist?... probably, and of course it's early so hopefully that fear will prove unfounded. Unfortunately I can't honestly see the January transfer window, which we are already forced to clutch at as a solution, as providing any major rectification when valuations are likely to be inflated and our league position is likely to be a poor one.

No matter at whose door the blame lies for the summer, it has been and gone and left us in a situation where we will in all likelyhood be facing the whole season with a weaker squad than last seasons.

This is why I state the concern of the first paragraph and why I also feel that a change of management would be a huge gamble that may very well not change this seasons end result. Whether we like it or not, as a club we have to contemplate the 'unthinkable' and keep in mind a contingency plan for League One. 

If the best man to help us with that is already here, then perhaps he should be afforded the opportunity to avoid that scenario and keep us where, he after all, has got us.

That said, if the rumours of major disharmony surrounding that man have any truth, the aforementioned will prove irrelevant.

what if , quite simply, Cotts has given his all and just can't do it any more ?

[BCFC_Dan]

Statistically, we're not that far off being OK.

If you look at some of the charts on this site: http://experimental361.com/ you can see that in the overall picture, we're not desperately bad, though definitely edging towards the bad quadrants, whilst in a number of the game timelines we've created chances to warrant winning the game but haven't.

Obviously statistics don't tell the whole story and the fact of the matter is we've only won one game all season, but they suggest that it would only take a small improvement to turn performances (again, based on the stats on that site; I haven't seen a match this season myself so we might just be dreadful) into results.

An example of this happening is Reading. They started the season pretty poorly but were one of the best performers according to the statistics on that site. Then they suddenly started turning their dominance into results and flew up the table. We're not as dominant statistically as they were but we are better than our points tally suggests.

Interestingly (perhaps), if you look at the "E ratings" section it suggests that, in terms of "expected goals", we were actually quite a bit weaker than Preston and MK Dons. To my mind that means one of two things: either we massively overachieved last season and have regressed this season, or the statistical model is flawed. It could be either, frankly.

[SecretSam]

Although I've been critical of Steve recently he has built up a bank of goodwill with me that makes me opt for him for at least this season. 

Chopping and changing managers has never benefited us. Or anyone else much.

Exactly.  There's hardly a queue of more accomplished or more qualified replacements out there, anyway, unless Carlo Ancelotti fancies moving to BS3

[WhistleHappy]

Still time for Cotts & co to perform a few three-point turnarounds.. Madness to even contemplate getting shot of a very good driver at this junction. (that'd be like throwing the baby out with the bath water)

Sacking would be a panic tactic leaving us up a creek without a paddle ....

Cotts is OK, he will turn this thing around (not his fault 'head office' tried filling the tank with cheap petrol) sack him now at your peril, and we'll soon find out that we've got 'n where we cas'nt back 'n ....

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AnKjwOLiBTg  

When the going gets tough, supporters need to support...

Rally round, backs against the wall stuff - that's when we come out fighting - that's when   we're at our best and thats when we BCFC stop being the underdogs... & Cotts is just the passionate leader we need to do just that - don't sack him back him.