formerly known as ivan Posted November 1, 2015 Report Share Posted November 1, 2015 Until we start taking the ones we create then we will remain in trouble. Last Monday should have been three points but we missed chance after chance. Yesterday at 1-0 down we started to play ok, only for Kodjia to fire over a glorious chance after great work from Williams, and then Flint putting over an even better chance from a free kick. As well as Fulham played it wasn't like they were creating chance after chance, they just took the ones they made. Min the second half Kodjia missed two more great chances before he got his goal. For all his ability, as someone mentioned on here after the game last Monday, unless he starts converting chances into goals more often, he won't become a premier league player. The argument about Wilbs will continue as long as he is playing but I can't see why Agard or Cox aren't playing. Football is a simple game as Fulham showed yesterday. Put the ball into the net! Just something we are unable to do at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Vega Posted November 1, 2015 Report Share Posted November 1, 2015 27 minutes ago, formerly known as ivan said: Until we start taking the ones we create then we will remain in trouble. Last Monday should have been three points but we missed chance after chance. Yesterday at 1-0 down we started to play ok, only for Kodjia to fire over a glorious chance after great work from Williams, and then Flint putting over an even better chance from a free kick. As well as Fulham played it wasn't like they were creating chance after chance, they just took the ones they made. Min the second half Kodjia missed two more great chances before he got his goal. For all his ability, as someone mentioned on here after the game last Monday, unless he starts converting chances into goals more often, he won't become a premier league player. The argument about Wilbs will continue as long as he is playing but I can't see why Agard or Cox aren't playing. Football is a simple game as Fulham showed yesterday. Put the ball into the net! Just something we are unable to do at the moment. Think this highlights more than ever why Cotts was in for Grey & Gayle, we just lack the finishing touch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spudski Posted November 1, 2015 Report Share Posted November 1, 2015 I see our problem, not in scoring....but conceding goals. We've only scored 3 less than Brighton who are top. We've scored 1 more than Cardiff who are 9th. And we've scored more goals than every team from 14th down. However....we've conceded 26 goals....the second worst in the division to bottom placed Rotherham. Plus there are only 4 Clubs in this division with double figure negative GD....we are miles off most teams. It's there for all to see where our problem lies. Our manager is still banging on about scoring more goals....yet speaks very little about our defensive problems. He's completely blinkered in his beliefs. Offensive expansive football is great if you have the players to play it....but imho, at this level we don't. The way we play knackers players out so quickly. Elliott Bennett spoke of how his legs have been in shock since being asked to play wing back. Also he's said he had to learn off Bryan and Burns the position. We are, Wilbs excluded, a team of mainly inexperienced individuals at this level, many learning new positions and way of playing....with a Subs bench that our manager doesn't seem to trust. Imho....we will continue in the same vein....win an odd game, look exciting...but struggle to win games consistently. Cotts will take us down if he continues the same tactics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frenchay Red Posted November 1, 2015 Report Share Posted November 1, 2015 I know they are different types of players and I know it has been done to death, but I reckon JET and Matt Smith both have a better chances to goals conversion rate than Kodjia. He is an exciting player but he needs to up his conversion rate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spudski Posted November 1, 2015 Report Share Posted November 1, 2015 4 minutes ago, Frenchay Red said: I know they are different types of players and I know it has been done to death, but I reckon JET and Matt Smith both have a better chances to goals conversion rate than Kodjia. He is an exciting player but he needs to up his conversion rate. Sorry....can't agree. He's scored 7 this season....only 2 less than the top scorer in the division. He's scored the same amount as McCormack and Charlie Austin. We can't put all that pressure on one bloke to score. It's obviously the way we are set up, that doesn't enable other players to score more. If we continue to rely on Kodijia to save us, then we will go down. SC needs to smarten up fast. Personally I'd be wanting more from Freeman and Wilbs to be getting into better scoring positions....but both are being asked to do other jobs on the pitch. Way too much pressure for Kodijia imho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frenchay Red Posted November 1, 2015 Report Share Posted November 1, 2015 3 minutes ago, spudski said: I see our problem, not in scoring....but conceding goals. We've only scored 3 less than Brighton who are top. We've scored 1 more than Cardiff who are 9th. And we've scored more goals than every team from 14th down. However....we've conceded 26 goals....the second worst in the division to bottom placed Rotherham. Plus there are only 4 Clubs in this division with double figure negative GD....we are miles off most teams. It's there for all to see where our problem lies. Our manager is still banging on about scoring more goals....yet speaks very little about our defensive problems. He's completely blinkered in his beliefs. Offensive expansive football is great if you have the players to play it....but imho, at this level we don't. The way we play knackers players out so quickly. Elliott Bennett spoke of how his legs have been in shock since being asked to play wing back. Also he's said he had to learn off Bryan and Burns the position. We are, Wilbs excluded, a team of mainly inexperienced individuals at this level, many learning new positions and way of playing....with a Subs bench that our manager doesn't seem to trust. Imho....we will continue in the same vein....win an odd game, look exciting...but struggle to win games consistently. Cotts will take us down if he continues the same tactics. If we converted more of what we are creating it would change the dynamics of the games and we have to make use of the players we have even if they are not of the quality of some other teams. Baker has brought a big improvement to the defence and we missed him yesterday. Things have been improving, though yesterday was a setback. We are not going to suddenly be able to switch from an attacking style to a defending one and we have matched a good few "fancied" teams so far. Whether we like it or not, because of the way we play we are likely to concede, however we do create a lot of chances so by converting more of those we give ourselves, we are less likely to be chasing the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AshtonGreat Posted November 1, 2015 Report Share Posted November 1, 2015 14 minutes ago, spudski said: I see our problem, not in scoring....but conceding goals. We've only scored 3 less than Brighton who are top. We've scored 1 more than Cardiff who are 9th. And we've scored more goals than every team from 14th down. However....we've conceded 26 goals....the second worst in the division to bottom placed Rotherham. Plus there are only 4 Clubs in this division with double figure negative GD....we are miles off most teams. It's there for all to see where our problem lies. Our manager is still banging on about scoring more goals....yet speaks very little about our defensive problems. He's completely blinkered in his beliefs. Offensive expansive football is great if you have the players to play it....but imho, at this level we don't. The way we play knackers players out so quickly. Elliott Bennett spoke of how his legs have been in shock since being asked to play wing back. Also he's said he had to learn off Bryan and Burns the position. We are, Wilbs excluded, a team of mainly inexperienced individuals at this level, many learning new positions and way of playing....with a Subs bench that our manager doesn't seem to trust. Imho....we will continue in the same vein....win an odd game, look exciting...but struggle to win games consistently. Cotts will take us down if he continues the same tactics. I think you're missing the point here. Winning the odd game but not winning games consistently is exactly what clubs near the bottom do. And that's all we could have expected this season. Look at Preston and MK Dons...in roughly the same place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrahamC Posted November 1, 2015 Report Share Posted November 1, 2015 Cart before horse, Preston (a worse side than us last year) have kept seven clean sheets already and therefore currently have more points than us. This reminds me of the myth about Ade Akinbiyi in 98/99 when he scored 19 in the league yet people on here still say he should have scored about 30 and then we'd have stayed up. How about the fact we let in 80 that year, something we are on course to do again. If Kodjia gets around 16 he'll have done his job, the defenders, keeper and midfielders also need to do theirs.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobBobSuperBob Posted November 1, 2015 Report Share Posted November 1, 2015 Think JK is a raw diamond who will continue to improve and very much a ray of light However in 2nd half alone he had two one on ones that he failed to finish and tbh never looked like converting Its the hardest bit of the game and at least he's getting those chances, but McCormack , Blackman, etc would have finished at least one if not both of those , that's the standard we are now in. Hes got that bit of special in him and will improve & become a gem and his missed chances here and there are highlighted because of failings elsewhere. My one worry is that he becomes completely demoralised and loses his own edge - he looked really fed up at times yesterday - but fair play to him he kept going and pleased that he got a goal, at least for himself Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frenchay Red Posted November 1, 2015 Report Share Posted November 1, 2015 4 minutes ago, spudski said: Sorry....can't agree. He's scored 7 this season....only 2 less than the top scorer in the division. He's scored the same amount as McCormack and Charlie Austin. We can't put all that pressure on one bloke to score. It's obviously the way we are set up, that doesn't enable other players to score more. If we continue to rely on Kodijia to save us, then we will go down. SC needs to smarten up fast. Personally I'd be wanting more from Freeman and Wilbs to be getting into better scoring positions....but both are being asked to do other jobs on the pitch. Way too much pressure for Kodijia imho. And I can't agree either! It's not about pressure on Kodjia, it's about making the most of what we create. He does need support though and yesterday I would have brought Burns on for Wilbs early in the second half. Freeman does a lot of work, but most teams put defenders on him and Kodlia is his only outlet a lot of the time. Another more pacey option alongside Kodjia might give him that split second required for just a bit more composure. As for Austin and McCormack, I haven't seen the chances they have missed so comparison is meaningless. I have seen the ones Kodjia has missed and feel he might have done a bit better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spoons Posted November 1, 2015 Report Share Posted November 1, 2015 Chances are the least of our worries! We are so open, especially in the first 10 minutes of games. We also need to convert away form to home form. Anyone blaming kodjas chance conversion rate for our league performance is ludicrous! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spudski Posted November 1, 2015 Report Share Posted November 1, 2015 2 minutes ago, Frenchay Red said: If we converted more of what we are creating it would change the dynamics of the games and we have to make use of the players we have even if they are not of the quality of some other teams. Baker has brought a big improvement to the defence and we missed him yesterday. Things have been improving, though yesterday was a setback. We are not going to suddenly be able to switch from an attacking style to a defending one and we have matched a good few "fancied" teams so far. Whether we like it or not, because of the way we play we are likely to concede, however we do create a lot of chances so by converting more of those we give ourselves, we are less likely to be chasing the game. True....but like I said....you can't rely on Kodijia to do that for us. He's already doing well when you compare it with other teams. You have to spread the load. Because of the way we play, chances don't often fall to others. Our wing backs are redundant in scoring goals almost. I truly believe we have the players in this squad to be comfortably above the relegation zone. I believe it's the managers way of playing that is killing us. We concede way too easily...Fulham proved that yesterday. The longer we go on in this position, with increasing pressure, the harder it's going to get. Our way of playing is great if you are confident....but it's obvious to see the cracks forming in our defence.....they look low on confidence and no longer composed. Flint has been effected the most. He looked like a frightened child at some points yesterday. No longer dominant in defence, struggled with distribution and no longer a threat at corners and set pieces. Look at the history of teams relegated....generally it's always teams with a high goals conceded record, often scoring more than teams above them. Look at the stats....our goals scored is mid table standard. Our goals conceded is rock bottom. It's not rocket science to see where the problem lies. Imho, the sooner we go 4312 the better. We have plenty of players who could do well in a more 'structured' way of playing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spudski Posted November 1, 2015 Report Share Posted November 1, 2015 9 minutes ago, Frenchay Red said: And I can't agree either! It's not about pressure on Kodjia, it's about making the most of what we create. He does need support though and yesterday I would have brought Burns on for Wilbs early in the second half. Freeman does a lot of work, but most teams put defenders on him and Kodlia is his only outlet a lot of the time. Another more pacey option alongside Kodjia might give him that split second required for just a bit more composure. As for Austin and McCormack, I haven't seen the chances they have missed so comparison is meaningless. I have seen the ones Kodjia has missed and feel he might have done a bit better. What you are asking is almost impossible. He'd be top scorer by miles in this division if he had put away all his chances. He's only 2 from the top. How you expect an inexperienced player at this level, to be scoring more than all the other experienced strikers in this league is frankly ridiculous. With respect....if you set up in a team where your only goals are coming from one player....then you are going to struggle. The poor bloke is doing a great job in his first season here...if we continue to heap pressure on the bloke, it could ruin him. Cotts continues with Wilbs to 'baby sit' Kodijia.....that's where the problem lie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pongo88 Posted November 1, 2015 Report Share Posted November 1, 2015 44 minutes ago, Doozerchris said: Think this highlights more than ever why Cotts was in for Grey & Gayle, we just lack the finishing touch And the ability to defend. Apart from poor defending and poor finishing, everything is OK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Offside Posted November 1, 2015 Report Share Posted November 1, 2015 Failings at both ends have cost us points this season, but for me our defending is the biggest concern. If we keep shipping so many goals we'll make it really difficult to give ourselves a chance of staying up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Up The City! Posted November 1, 2015 Report Share Posted November 1, 2015 Do people seriously expect players to score every chance they have? Laughable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
formerly known as ivan Posted November 1, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 1, 2015 13 minutes ago, Just Red said: Do people seriously expect players to score every chance they have? Laughable. Not every chance, but more chances yes. Do you not think Kodjia should have scored the header vs Cardiff or the first half chance yesterday? One of those two chances go in then they are different games and different results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
formerly known as ivan Posted November 1, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 1, 2015 57 minutes ago, spudski said: I see our problem, not in scoring....but conceding goals. We've only scored 3 less than Brighton who are top. We've scored 1 more than Cardiff who are 9th. And we've scored more goals than every team from 14th down. However....we've conceded 26 goals....the second worst in the division to bottom placed Rotherham. Plus there are only 4 Clubs in this division with double figure negative GD....we are miles off most teams. It's there for all to see where our problem lies. Our manager is still banging on about scoring more goals....yet speaks very little about our defensive problems. He's completely blinkered in his beliefs. Offensive expansive football is great if you have the players to play it....but imho, at this level we don't. The way we play knackers players out so quickly. Elliott Bennett spoke of how his legs have been in shock since being asked to play wing back. Also he's said he had to learn off Bryan and Burns the position. We are, Wilbs excluded, a team of mainly inexperienced individuals at this level, many learning new positions and way of playing....with a Subs bench that our manager doesn't seem to trust. Imho....we will continue in the same vein....win an odd game, look exciting...but struggle to win games consistently. Cotts will take us down if he continues the same tactics. If we take our chances then the game is different. I believe, impossible to prove now I know, that had Kodjia or Flint taken one of their chances we wouldn't have conceded four goals yesterday. Fine lines I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted November 1, 2015 Report Share Posted November 1, 2015 9 minutes ago, formerly known as ivan said: If we take our chances then the game is different. I believe, impossible to prove now I know, that had Kodjia or Flint taken one of their chances we wouldn't have conceded four goals yesterday. Fine lines I guess. I'm not sure what would've happened, but i agree that goals name a difference. Did we play much worse in the opening half hour yesterday than v Forest. Probably not, but Fulham got a goal so early and allowed us to come onto us and they picked us off (brutally IMHO). Against Forest we got the early goal, and this enabled us to be more patient, and a Forest rarely broke us down. Lets hope it us that gets the opener v Wolves on Tuesday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spudski Posted November 1, 2015 Report Share Posted November 1, 2015 18 minutes ago, formerly known as ivan said: If we take our chances then the game is different. I believe, impossible to prove now I know, that had Kodjia or Flint taken one of their chances we wouldn't have conceded four goals yesterday. Fine lines I guess. But that's the point i'm trying to make. We are taking our chances, when you compare how many goals we've scored with the rest of the league. There are only 12 teams that have scored more than us....so we are mid table by that comparison. It's the goal conceded that is the problem...we are second worst at that. Yes we could improve on goals scored....but why not try not conceding so many, whilst creating chances as well. Like all managers have said when playing us....we will cause teams problems...but they try to match us. Fulham did just that...made a change, nullified our chances, and tore us a new one in the first half. There is no doubting we cause problems....but we are too easily torn apart. Conceding is our biggest worry. Start to address that and there is no reason why we can't do better. Unfortunately....SC is blatently blinkered, stubborn and in total belief that his way of playing will bring results. Does anyone truly believe, that playing this system long term in this division, will bring long term success? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
formerly known as ivan Posted November 1, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 1, 2015 4 minutes ago, spudski said: But that's the point i'm trying to make. We are taking our chances, when you compare how many goals we've scored with the rest of the league. There are only 12 teams that have scored more than us....so we are mid table by that comparison. It's the goal conceded that is the problem...we are second worst at that. Yes we could improve on goals scored....but why not try not conceding so many, whilst creating chances as well. Like all managers have said when playing us....we will cause teams problems...but they try to match us. Fulham did just that...made a change, nullified our chances, and tore us a new one in the first half. There is no doubting we cause problems....but we are too easily torn apart. Conceding is our biggest worry. Start to address that and there is no reason why we can't do better. Unfortunately....SC is blatently blinkered, stubborn and in total belief that his way of playing will bring results. Does anyone truly believe, that playing this system long term in this division, will bring long term success? Where do we sit in terms of goals scored if you take away the one yesterday and the one against Burnley? I know a goal is a goal but in the scheme of things they were pretty pointless goals. I agree conceding goals is a massive problem, hard to argue otherwise, but I do think that if we take our chances then maybe things change at the back. The system we play looked decent enough against Forest and Cardiff, and further back Middlesbrough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spoons Posted November 1, 2015 Report Share Posted November 1, 2015 24 minutes ago, formerly known as ivan said: Not every chance, but more chances yes. Do you not think Kodjia should have scored the header vs Cardiff or the first half chance yesterday? One of those two chances go in then they are different games and different results. The header against Cardiff was a quality save hence Marshall winning man of match. What you forget is kodja gets chances but also he creates his own chances as well. The header against Cardiff he worked hard won ball back past wide ran 45 yards then headed it. So electively were asking him to score and create as he ain't getting much help. Still this end of the field is not the priority! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samo II Posted November 1, 2015 Report Share Posted November 1, 2015 1 hour ago, GrahamC said: Cart before horse, Preston (a worse side than us last year) have kept seven clean sheets already and therefore currently have more points than us. This reminds me of the myth about Ade Akinbiyi in 98/99 when he scored 19 in the league yet people on here still say he should have scored about 30 and then we'd have stayed up. How about the fact we let in 80 that year, something we are on course to do again. If Kodjia gets around 16 he'll have done his job, the defenders, keeper and midfielders also need to do theirs.. 100% agree. Kodjia is chipping in with goals and assist, and working his arse off; may not convert all the chances he gets but ce la vie. If he had another forward who was as dangerous a finisher next to him (which is what I think we looked to get hold of with our Gray/Gayle bids), a midfield who were threatening the goal in any consistent and meaningful way durning games (which let's face it; they really aren't this year), and a midfield/defence/keeper who were perhaps avoiding us concealing so many, then we'd not talking about this, as his goals-to-games is excellent right now. Problems run deeper than one player's finishing, and lie elsewhere. Let's give one of the few postitives from this season a break, and focus on the real problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
formerly known as ivan Posted November 1, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 1, 2015 3 minutes ago, Spoons said: The header against Cardiff was a quality save hence Marshall winning man of match. What you forget is kodja gets chances but also he creates his own chances as well. The header against Cardiff he worked hard won ball back past wide ran 45 yards then headed it. So electively were asking him to score and create as he ain't getting much help. Still this end of the field is not the priority! It wasn't a great save. Yes Kodjia done well to set up the play and to get on the box but that's what you expect from the very good players, of which he is. But having done that he put the header in the one place where the keeper could save it. Kodjia wasn't stretching, it wasn't behind him, it was millimetre perfect for the header. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spudski Posted November 1, 2015 Report Share Posted November 1, 2015 5 minutes ago, formerly known as ivan said: Where do we sit in terms of goals scored if you take away the one yesterday and the one against Burnley? I know a goal is a goal but in the scheme of things they were pretty pointless goals. I agree conceding goals is a massive problem, hard to argue otherwise, but I do think that if we take our chances then maybe things change at the back. The system we play looked decent enough against Forest and Cardiff, and further back Middlesbrough. Only one place less....From 15th down....14 goals scored. Creating chances is fine....but you can't just rely on one bloke to take them. I can't remember one scoring chance from Wilbs yesterday. I really don't understand what SC is trying to achieve. At times yesterday, you had both wing backs hugging the touchline, regardless of where the ball was. When you do that, you are effectively playing with 10 men. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Posted November 1, 2015 Report Share Posted November 1, 2015 had we converted all our chances yesterday we would of still lost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phileas Fogg Posted November 1, 2015 Report Share Posted November 1, 2015 1 hour ago, BobBobSuperBob said: Think JK is a raw diamond who will continue to improve and very much a ray of light However in 2nd half alone he had two one on ones that he failed to finish and tbh never looked like converting Its the hardest bit of the game and at least he's getting those chances, but McCormack , Blackman, etc would have finished at least one if not both of those , that's the standard we are now in. Hes got that bit of special in him and will improve & become a gem and his missed chances here and there are highlighted because of failings elsewhere. My one worry is that he becomes completely demoralised and loses his own edge - he looked really fed up at times yesterday - but fair play to him he kept going and pleased that he got a goal, at least for himself Agree, I hope the club are looking after him better now. On the first home game he had to stop and ask someone to get in his car to navigate him to AG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1960maaan Posted November 1, 2015 Report Share Posted November 1, 2015 You can't say 'if we would have coverted all our chances' without adding the opposite argument, if they would have taken theirs! I'd say 4 maybe 5 - 6 to them. Kodjia , it was generally thought , would take time to settle. Not speaking the language and new country, as it turns out even at this early stage he looks a real threat. Maybe when he really settles in he will take a higher percentage. At the moment the team must think that they have to score 2 to get anything out of the game, and that's not a good mindset to have. The real problem, and so the the solution, is the defence. Just concede 1 goal a game and we would start to pick up points, imagine if we could keep a clean sheet !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cityexile Posted November 1, 2015 Report Share Posted November 1, 2015 I agree that the real problem is the defence, but in terms of our defensive shape, rather than down to indivdual defenders. We do not seem to have a defensive shape, and the back line is exposed far to easy. It is not quite right to say we have no Plan B. We saw it against MK and some other teams when we were ahead. It consists of 11 behind the ball and then belting it down the middle when we get it. Everything went wrong yesterday and we did not even make it difficult for them. We really do need to be able to soak up some pressure now and again, whilst retaining some threat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeAman08 Posted November 1, 2015 Report Share Posted November 1, 2015 Tbf we have been better defensively the past 4-5 matches before yesterday where I think we missed Baker and Williams at WB. Still needs to be better but I think we came up against a better team. We will have that a few times this season. Four is too many but we were missing our best defender. Would have rather seen Moore at LCB and Williams at WB yesterday but it's done now. Wolves present similar problems with food attackers so we need to get organized fast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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