City Players serving in the World Wars

[alandicks]

As it is Remembrance day does anyone know if Bristol City lost any players in the two World Wars ? 

[stoneroses]

Not sure about lost, but definitely gained. 

[Merrick's Marvels]

In World War 1 we lost 2 players -

Tommy Ware (goalkeeper), killed in action May 1915 serving with the Royal Field Artillery

Edwin Burton (inside forward), killed in action August 1916 serving with the Durham Light Infantry.

Several former City players also lost their lives.

You can read all about Bristolian Tommy Ware here:

https://thenatchwall.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/28-33-tw.pdf

[CotswoldRed]

44 minutes ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

In World War 1 we lost 2 players -

Tommy Ware (goalkeeper), killed in action May 1915 serving with the Royal Field Artillery

Edwin Burton (inside forward), killed in action August 1916 serving with the Durham Light Infantry.

Several former City players also lost their lives.

You can read all about Bristolian Tommy Ware here:

https://thenatchwall.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/28-33-tw.pdf

Fantastic stuff.  Thanks for sharing :)

[Hillzider]

List of players who served and lost their lives on this site.

http://www.footballandthefirstworldwar.org/bristol-city-football-club-first-world-war/

 

Also lists A Edwards as another who lost his life.

Often wondered if there was any sort of memorial at the Ground to those who fought and those killed in both world wars.

Anyone aware of this?

If not with the centenary of world war 1 with us it could be a good chance for the club to incorporate something into the new development.

[Mike Hunt-Hertz]

I've heard of Clapton Orient and Hearts teams, that signed up en masse.

[Merrick's Marvels]

33 minutes ago, Hillzider said:

List of players who served and lost their lives on this site.

http://www.footballandthefirstworldwar.org/bristol-city-football-club-first-world-war/

 

Also lists A Edwards as another who lost his life.

Often wondered if there was any sort of memorial at the Ground to those who fought and those killed in both world wars.

Anyone aware of this?

If not with the centenary of world war 1 with us it could be a good chance for the club to incorporate something into the new development.

 

Hillzider - it's a good site that one, although there are omissions rom the City page and Albert Edwards should be listed in the "Former players" section - he played 4 games in season 12/13 but was sold to Newport County in July 1913 so wasn't a City player when he enlisted.

Ware and Burton are the players who gave up their City careers to voluntarily enlist, both making the "ultimate sacrifice". The remaining players listed on that site served after League football stopped at the end of season 14/15 (although regional competitions continued) and as a result of conscription being introduced in 1916.  

George Hedley - City's manager from 1913-15, was called up in 1917.

Two of City's finest ever players, who had retired not long before the outbreak of war, also served -

Harry Clay our keeper for 12 seasons, over 300 appearances including the 1909 Cup Final, and Reuben Marr, Billy Wedlock's half back partner for 7 seasons, nearly 200 appearances but missed the Cup Final through injury.

Harry Dolman also served in WW1.

 

[Offside]

In the book "Bristol Babe (1st 100 years of BCFC)" by David Woods there is a "Killed in action" section about WW1 that also mentions Frank Bacon, who was vice-chairman.

It also refers to club secretary Frank Hill who was called up in 1917 but survived.

In that book there are also references to City players Alex Milligan and Joseph Watts who fought in the Boer War along with Andrew Hargett who played for Bedminster.

[Hillzider]

1 hour ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

 

Hillzider - it's a good site that one, although there are omissions rom the City page and Albert Edwards should be listed in the "Former players" section - he played 4 games in season 12/13 but was sold to Newport County in July 1913 so wasn't a City player when he enlisted.

Ware and Burton are the players who gave up their City careers to voluntarily enlist, both making the "ultimate sacrifice". The remaining players listed on that site served after League football stopped at the end of season 14/15 (although regional competitions continued) and as a result of conscription being introduced in 1916.  

George Hedley - City's manager from 1913-15, was called up in 1917.

Two of City's finest ever players, who had retired not long before the outbreak of war, also served -

Harry Clay our keeper for 12 seasons, over 300 appearances including the 1909 Cup Final, and Reuben Marr, Billy Wedlock's half back partner for 7 seasons, nearly 200 appearances but missed the Cup Final through injury.

Harry Dolman also served in WW1.

 

Thanks MM for that.

Good to see that these names have not been forgotten.

That's the lease they deserve for the sacrifice's they made

[alandicks]

Thanks for all the informative replies.

 

[T R]

I came across this link 

http://2ndww.blogspot.co.uk/2010/03/michale-toman-pne-and-bristol-city.html

If we get a memorial garden at Ashton gate it would be nice to have a list of past players who died in the war.

[22A]

Widening the scope of this thread, I've looked at another aspect of the club; how it kept going through the two world wars.

Len Southway, a player and later trainer, was missing two fingers so instead of being called up to fight, was sent to work at Avonmouth Docks. He & Billy Wedlock were the only professionals retained by the club during WW1. They arranged fixtures against teams from the docks, factories and the Services. The pair were only paid when City played Rovers. One season they met 12 times and 38 times in total during the four years. As most players were away, City made up the team with anyone who was available, but rivalry remained intense. After one City win at Eastville, Len and Billy had to fight their way through an angry crowd and escaped on a pony & trap. For the 1919-20 season, City re-signed ten players. Harry Dolman served  on the Somme and at Ypres with the Wiltshire Yeomanry.

One night in February 1941 Len Southway arrived to conduct training, but the doors were locked. Hetried climbing through a window, but was stopped by a policeman. He explained to Len there were 2 or 3 unexploded bombs in the stand. Later that night they exploded and destroyed half the stand. Len thought that won't happen again, so he parked his car beneath the surviving half. The next night that received a direct hit destroying it and the car. City made up their teams from any footballers who were stationed nearby. During WW2 Arthur Milton, Bill Shankley, Jack Hargreaves, Lance Carr & Alec Stock all played or City and were paid 30/- (£1.50) a game. City's Treasurer reported a profit for the 1943-44 season.

Odd thing about wartime football, it was regionalised to prevent travelling too much with the League split into four areas. One year positions were decided not by the number of points earned, but by goals scored. Oddly though, no teams appear to have agreed on a 10-10 draw. In 1943 a League Cup was organised and City were home to Villa. 24,650 fans turned up and paid £1,606 to watch. It was 0-0 and City lost the replay 1-0 after missing two penalties. April 1945 came THAT game against Cardiff. City lost a home leg 2-1, but won the away leg 2-1. The tie had to be finished that day so the Ref ordered play to continue until the next goal was scored. Players were collapsing and Cardiff hit a winner in the 202nd minute.

January 1950, a German Alec Eisentrager was signed. He had been spotted playing in a POW camp. He scored four goals in an early 50-51 season game against Newport.

[redysteadygo1]

56 minutes ago, 22A said:

Widening the scope of this thread, I've looked at another aspect of the club; how it kept going through the two world wars.

Len Southway, a player and later trainer, was missing two fingers so instead of being called up to fight, was sent to work at Avonmouth Docks. He & Billy Wedlock were the only professionals retained by the club during WW1. They arranged fixtures against teams from the docks, factories and the Services. The pair were only paid when City played Rovers. One season they met 12 times and 38 times in total during the four years. As most players were away, City made up the team with anyone who was available, but rivalry remained intense. After one City win at Eastville, Len and Billy had to fight their way through an angry crowd and escaped on a pony & trap. For the 1919-20 season, City re-signed ten players. Harry Dolman served  on the Somme and at Ypres with the Wiltshire Yeomanry.

One night in February 1941 Len Southway arrived to conduct training, but the doors were locked. Hetried climbing through a window, but was stopped by a policeman. He explained to Len there were 2 or 3 unexploded bombs in the stand. Later that night they exploded and destroyed half the stand. Len thought that won't happen again, so he parked his car beneath the surviving half. The next night that received a direct hit destroying it and the car. City made up their teams from any footballers who were stationed nearby. During WW2 Arthur Milton, Bill Shankley, Jack Hargreaves, Lance Carr & Alec Stock all played or City and were paid 30/- (£1.50) a game. City's Treasurer reported a profit for the 1943-44 season.

Odd thing about wartime football, it was regionalised to prevent travelling too much with the League split into four areas. One year positions were decided not by the number of points earned, but by goals scored. Oddly though, no teams appear to have agreed on a 10-10 draw. In 1943 a League Cup was organised and City were home to Villa. 24,650 fans turned up and paid £1,606 to watch. It was 0-0 and City lost the replay 1-0 after missing two penalties. April 1945 came THAT game against Cardiff. City lost a home leg 2-1, but won the away leg 2-1. The tie had to be finished that day so the Ref ordered play to continue until the next goal was scored. Players were collapsing and Cardiff hit a winner in the 202nd minute.

January 1950, a German Alec Eisentrager was signed. He had been spotted playing in a POW camp. He scored four goals in an early 50-51 season game against Newport.

Was coached by Jack Hargreaves in the late 1950s and early 60s when he was a City scout. His claim to fame at the time was that he had played at all the current Football League grounds.

[Merrick's Marvels]

1 hour ago, 22A said:

Widening the scope of this thread, I've looked at another aspect of the club; how it kept going through the two world wars.

Len Southway, a player and later trainer, was missing two fingers so instead of being called up to fight, was sent to work at Avonmouth Docks. He & Billy Wedlock were the only professionals retained by the club during WW1. They arranged fixtures against teams from the docks, factories and the Services. The pair were only paid when City played Rovers. One season they met 12 times and 38 times in total during the four years. As most players were away, City made up the team with anyone who was available, but rivalry remained intense. After one City win at Eastville, Len and Billy had to fight their way through an angry crowd and escaped on a pony & trap. For the 1919-20 season, City re-signed ten players. Harry Dolman served  on the Somme and at Ypres with the Wiltshire Yeomanry.

One night in February 1941 Len Southway arrived to conduct training, but the doors were locked. Hetried climbing through a window, but was stopped by a policeman. He explained to Len there were 2 or 3 unexploded bombs in the stand. Later that night they exploded and destroyed half the stand. Len thought that won't happen again, so he parked his car beneath the surviving half. The next night that received a direct hit destroying it and the car. City made up their teams from any footballers who were stationed nearby. During WW2 Arthur Milton, Bill Shankley, Jack Hargreaves, Lance Carr & Alec Stock all played or City and were paid 30/- (£1.50) a game. City's Treasurer reported a profit for the 1943-44 season.

Odd thing about wartime football, it was regionalised to prevent travelling too much with the League split into four areas. One year positions were decided not by the number of points earned, but by goals scored. Oddly though, no teams appear to have agreed on a 10-10 draw. In 1943 a League Cup was organised and City were home to Villa. 24,650 fans turned up and paid £1,606 to watch. It was 0-0 and City lost the replay 1-0 after missing two penalties. April 1945 came THAT game against Cardiff. City lost a home leg 2-1, but won the away leg 2-1. The tie had to be finished that day so the Ref ordered play to continue until the next goal was scored. Players were collapsing and Cardiff hit a winner in the 202nd minute.

 

Great stuff 22A.

 

[Lanterne Rouge]

I`ve often wondered how Alec Eisentrager was `received` by City and away fans. it would have all still been pretty close to the surface in 1950 so was there any animosity? Is there anyone out there who can remember that far back?

[redysteadygo1]

3 minutes ago, Red Right Hand said:

3 minutes ago, Red Right Hand said:

I`ve often wondered how Alec Eisentrager was `received` by City and away fans. it would have all still been pretty close to the surface in 1950 so was there any animosity? Is there anyone out there who can remember that far back?

I`ve often wondered how Alec Eisentrager was `received` by City and away fans. it would have all still been pretty close to the surface in 1950 so was there any animosity? Is there anyone out there who can remember that far back?

Can only speak for home games when I was a young lad but as far as I can remember he was just a City player that happened to be an ex POW with no obvious animosity to his German descent.

[Lanterne Rouge]

Thanks for that and it`s good to know there wasn`t. I assumed there hadn`t been too much otherwise I guess he wouldn`t have stayed.

I reckon if anything, with the evils of social media, it might even be worse nowadays!

[cityexile]

6 minutes ago, Red Right Hand said:

Thanks for that and it`s good to know there wasn`t. I assumed there hadn`t been too much otherwise I guess he wouldn`t have stayed.

I reckon if anything, with the evils of social media, it might even be worse nowadays!

Interesting thread.

Was not the only POW accepted in to the English game. I suppose the most famous was Bert  Trautmann who broke his neck in a FA Cup final, played on and collected his winners medal. Bred them tough in those days.

[Lanterne Rouge]

Trautmann was a Man City legend and is still revered up there. I suppose the closest we`ve come in (most) of our football supporting lives to experiencing something vaguely similar was when Spurs signed Ardiles & Villa around the time of the Falklands.

[Ivorguy]

I can confirm from my attendance at games in The Fifties that there was no animosity towards Alec Eisenstrager.

If memory serves he was popular with fans, as he always gave 100%

Am I right in saying he is alive and well and living in the neighbourhood?

[GrahamC]

17 minutes ago, Ivorguy said:

I can confirm from my attendance at games in The Fifties that there was no animosity towards Alec Eisenstrager.

If memory serves he was popular with fans, as he always gave 100%

Am I right in saying he is alive and well and living in the neighbourhood?

He was on the pitch at half time for one of last season's matches.

I think he's 88 now and the oldest known living ex City player.

[T R]

Just been reading about him. http://www.ndr.de/sport/fussball/Alec-Eisentraeger-Der-umjubelte-Feind-HSV,eisentraeger102.html

You need to translate to english which the browser should automatically ask you when you enter the website. 

[Hillzider]

[Merrick's Marvels]

17 hours ago, Ivorguy said:

I can confirm from my attendance at games in The Fifties that there was no animosity towards Alec Eisenstrager.

If memory serves he was popular with fans, as he always gave 100%

Am I right in saying he is alive and well and living in the neighbourhood?

 

Sadly, I believe he has Alzheimer's and can't remember too much about his playing days.

[cidered abroad]

On 11/11/2015, 20:37:46, Red Right Hand said:

I`ve often wondered how Alec Eisentrager was `received` by City and away fans. it would have all still been pretty close to the surface in 1950 so was there any animosity? Is there anyone out there who can remember that far back?

He was received very well by City fans. Some used to call him "Gerry" but to me as a young boy, it never sounded as if it was used in a distasteful way. He had ten years at City and while never a top star, always did his best for BCFC and was always appreciated by City fans.

In 1956, the Eagle comic organised some coaching sessions for the Eagle Club members in Bristol. Held at the Victoria Rooms, Alec came along from City and Josser Watling from Rovers. Alec took our autograph books to Ashton Gate and I still have it with the signatures of the entire 1955 squad except Arthur Milton who had retired.

A year later, The Eagle did a similar coaching and this time it was Harry Bamford of Rovers who did the coaching. He died a year later in a traffic collision. A really good guy and a tragedy. 

And one should also remember Bert Trauttmann of ManCity, also  a German POW. A great goalkeeper and held in very high esteem by all Man City fans. Also one of my boyhood football heroes.

[cidered abroad]

Tommy Burden who City signed from Leeds in the autumn of 1954 was in the D-Day landings in 1944 where he was injured.

His football career started at Wolves in 1941 until 1945. He moved to Chester City and then Leeds where he was captain for some time until he moved to City. That transfer came about because he was by then playing as a part time professional with a job at Clark's Shoes in Street in their Time and Motion dept.

He was a cultured ball playing wing half or inside forward and quickly settled into the eventual Third South champions. He stayed at City until the end of his career in 1961, making over 200 appearances.

[22A]

For the record, the 39-40 season did start. City lost their first game at home and then had two unbeaten away games.

When football stopped for the war, City's record was P3 W1 D1 L1 F5 A5.

As Rovers finished bottom of Div 3 South in 38-39, it means many unfortunate gasheads went to their deaths knowing they supported the worst team in the League. Technically they remained the worst until the 46-47 season started. The FA Cup resumed in 45-46, but the League delayed a year.

[Merrick's Marvels]

1 hour ago, 22A said:

For the record, the 39-40 season did start. City lost their first game at home and then had two unbeaten away games.

When football stopped for the war, City's record was P3 W1 D1 L1 F5 A5.

As Rovers finished bottom of Div 3 South in 38-39, it means many unfortunate gasheads went to their deaths knowing they supported the worst team in the League. Technically they remained the worst until the 46-47 season started. The FA Cup resumed in 45-46, but the League delayed a year.

"As Rovers finished bottom of Div 3 South in 38-39" - and were therefore relegated from the Football League!

Only to be re-elected by their foolish peers, damn their eyes.