SL Q&A at Snr Reds today

[wayne allisons tongues]

I'm getting bored of going onto most threads now and having people come on them and say if you know so and so they will tell you all things are bad. Whilst next person comes on and says i know so and so and all is good.

I have previously said I know people here in the north west and they are all very complimentary about our club and manager. But have said things like SC temper which make sense and understandable.

I personally don't think there is a single person on this forum that know people in football and every single one says either good or bad about SC and this club. It's a mixture of both and people just pick what they want so it suits there agenda at the time.

Why people need the need to come on here and try to big themselves up I do not know, only they know the reason for this.

 

[NickJ]

38 minutes ago, wayne allisons tongues said:

I'm getting bored of going onto most threads now and having people come on them and say if you know so and so they will tell you all things are bad. Whilst next person comes on and says i know so and so and all is good.

I have previously said I know people here in the north west and they are all very complimentary about our club and manager. But have said things like SC temper which make sense and understandable.

I personally don't think there is a single person on this forum that know people in football and every single one says either good or bad about SC and this club. It's a mixture of both and people just pick what they want so it suits there agenda at the time.

Why people need the need to come on here and try to big themselves up I do not know, only they know the reason for this.

 

The voice of reason.

[Kibs]

10 hours ago, Harry said:

Thanks for posting this westonred.

There seems to be a lot of anti-SL feeling on the responses to this.  Am I the only one who still believes what he wants to do is the right way?

I think a lot of people are getting entangled in this £2k per week in League 1 quote.  That's what SL quoted as the "average" in League 1.  This means some could be on anything up to 6, 7, 8 or more thousand per week, as many others will be on 6, 7 or 8 hundred per week.  Also bear in mind that we were one of the top 2 or 3 remunerators in the league last season, so our average would have been significantly more than the league average.  Don't be surprised if our average wage last year was more around the 4k-5k mark, with some players on anything up to £10k.

As regards the transfer philosophy, if SL is still publically acknowledging that his philosophy is u24 prospects, with the odd-experienced head, within a realistic wage structure, do you not think that Messrs Cotterill, Burt & Pelling were all fully aware of this?  Is it not believable that the board and the money-men set out a budget for this season and presented said budget to SC and KB.  The fact that one of them (not sure which one is responsible to be honest), then decided to chase players for £9m (and thus wages to match their transfer value), which clearly would not fit the pre-determined budget, is suddenly SL's fault somehow is quite ludicrous. 

We wasted a summer chasing unrealistic targets.  SC and KB knew what we could afford and decided to push their luck.  Pelling paid the price, as someone had to take the fall for the rowdy masses to be appeased - and it certainly wasn't going to be the man who'd just led us to a double.  It was clear in the summer that SC was getting frustrated with the budget he'd been given, and more and more there are surreptitious hints to SL ("squad not good enough", leaving the bench a man light, "I've never had a golden ticket" etc etc).  Now we hear SL stating that he is unhappy with what he'd read from SC.  Mmmmm....

Of course we need more experience in the squad, 100%.  But we could easily have got that in the summer had we not chased improbable dreams.  I think SL is the one who's trying to keep things realistic and in perspective here, whilst SC and a lot of fans are shouting "money, money, money".

From someone who is not in the know and just gets to see what's in the media and published by the club, reading between the lines - this seems just about bang on.

It's obvious that SL & SC are not seeing eye to eye and probably haven't been for sometime - Alarm bells were ringing for me back in Pre-Season at Yeovil when SC threw his teddies out and refused to make any subs in some kind of demonstration to SL. 

If realistic targets had been sought in the Summer, they'd be in the squad now. Like they were the year before. 

For what it's worth, I voted for Cotterill to continue as manager but I still believe a lot of this mess has well and truly been brought on by himself. He needs to accept where we currently are in the pecking order and cut our cloth accordingly when it comes to new signings. 

 

[reddoc]

9 hours ago, Harry said:

Clucas, Darikwa, Luongo, JET, Byrne, Murphy, Newell.  Just a selection of players who were playing L1 last season and who've acquitted themselves pretty well in the Champ so far having moved clubs.  That was just the last transfer window.  I'm sure there are multiple other examples from previous windows.
Sure - it shouldn't be our only recruitment source, but it shouldn't be ignored either, as it was in the Summer of 2015.

So who should have been the experienced replacement for Wade Elliot that Lansdown acknowledges that we're missing Harry? We've already got plenty of good league 1 players , so benefit of hindsights fine , but there was no way of knowing that any of the players you listed were successfully going to step up, as obviously some of ours have failed to do so.

[Robin1988]

So Cotterill was spot on in the summer.

It's always difficult to criticise someone pumping millions of pounds into your club, essentially building a new stadium and expecting nothing in return, but just keeping the same approach we had last season because it worked in a far weaker, financially poorer league is not going to push us on. It's hopelessly naive. As some others have said, Cotterill and Burt are clearly battling against it in looking to bring in players like Gayle and Gray, but realistically it seems their hands are tied by the wage structure.

Surely by now there is a sign that if we're going to ensure we stay up, we need to be bringing through a better quality of signing, from a higher pedigree? It's all very noble sticking to the old budget, and understandable in some ways given the way we overspent last time we were here, but really? It's not black and white, you can spend more when you need more.

Look at the players Bournemouth, a club we'd love to emulate, brought in. They brought in Elliott Ward from Norwich, Lee Camp from West Brom, Ian Harte from Reading, splashed £2.5m on a South African international striker. Kodjia aside, we've got nothing like that. They bought quality and they bought experience.

You can say what you like about SC saying the squad isn't good enough to compete with teams like Derby. But for a start, he's right. Secondly, the players aren't stupid, they know, and they'll pay far more attention to what he says behind closed doors as well, which I'm sure isn't the same as he says to us. And thirdly, if it is a swipe, then good on him. Saying things behind closed doors clearly hasn't worked, and he's trying to get us up the league.

I wonder whether his job is safe regardless of if we go down? You can't expect to make an omlette without breaking eggs.

[NickJ]

7 hours ago, spudski said:

I don't know what you know Nick...but I can guarantee it will have come from a totally different place to mine. Unless you deal with Agents, Players, Coach's or Scouts...then maybe. 

What you think and what I know, are totally different...but it's your prerogative to think differently...so there is no point debating about it.

You aren't the only person in the world that speaks with them.

But my questions from my post, not debate, are as below, can you answer?

10 hours ago, NickJ said:

What does you know how SC operates in the market mean?

What does Unfortunately SC has been allowed to put 'his stamp' all over the club mean?

 

 

[Laner]

So why build a top-tier stadium but only appear to accept third-tier football?

[cityloyal473]

16 minutes ago, Laner said:

So why build a top-tier stadium but only appear to accept third-tier football?

We speculated to accumulate a few years ago when the stadium wasn't ready or suitable.  Now we appear to be getting the 'off pitch' infrastructure right we don't want to get the 'on pitch' infrastructure right.  Its a bit of a puzzle. 

Unfortunately for SL, the stadium will not bring in everything he needs to sole fund an assault on the championship or premier. He has to dig into his pocket at some point.

[Pezo]

The thing I find strange is that last season I assumed we were going for quality over quantity by basically buying the 5 best players that played against us, this seems like a good strategy as long as you can get yourself 2 or 3 up in a game pretty quickly in most games then you don't have to work too hard and don't have to utilise the non existent squad. This season to do the same we would have needed the 5 best championship players (not realistically achievable as a newly promoted club) so we were always going to be in a situation where we were chasing games more often and chasing games is tiring so we always needed to increase the size of the squad, we bought 1 player that was a bit of a gamble (that thankfully worked). We bid £9M for 2 players that were never going to fit into our wage structure and we started the season with a (still) tiny squad.

So now the situation is:

• We have shown our hand so everyone thinks we have £9m to spend on players we want
• We have a tiny squad that's likely to tire as the season goes on
• We have probably 5 players that are of a good championship standard (Kodj, Flint, Smith, Wilbs(when he can play) and Freeman) (Loans not included)
• We will only pay low champ/div 1 wages.

Expanding a little, clubs are going to be looking for 9m for any player we want to buy - any player that's worth 9m is going to want more in wages than we are willing to pay. As well as all of this we need about 5 reserve players just deal with fatigue in the squad let alone to compete more and pull away from the drop zone!

There are without a doubt worse teams in this league (I have seen at least 5 so far) but with our -5 players compared to most other squads in this league I'm not sure there are worse squads.

Don't get me wrong I like SL but I guess the other question is if SL isn't going to support us financially then what's the point in him being the Billionaire owner, what is his goal, because since day 1 he has talked about sustainability and with mixed messages pumped millions into the club and taken that as shares so he now almost owns the club outright (I think he now has enough shares to force a full takeover if he wanted) - there is an argument that we could probably have stayed about where we are without the millions and basically selling the club to SL so what is his long term plan - if it is to break even then why has he run it at a loss for over 10 years at the expense of basically making the club completely reliant on him.

[Lanterne Rouge]

Sky commentator just said Kenwyne Jones is on 35k a week. And we wonder why we can`t attract quality players.

[pongo88]

1 hour ago, Red Right Hand said:

Sky commentator just said Kenwyne Jones is on 35k a week. And we wonder why we can`t attract quality players.

Just saw the half time analysis showing how lazy he was! Looks like he's overpaid by £34k per week 

[Lanterne Rouge]

5 minutes ago, pongo88 said:

Just saw the half time analysis showing how lazy he was! Looks like he's overpaid by £34k per week 

That was my point really. IMO he`s no more than an average championship striker so what do you do if guys like him are on that sort of wedge?

[bristolcitysweden]

On ‎2015‎-‎12‎-‎17 at 18:17, westonred said:

Steve Lansdown spoke at the Snr Reds Xmas lunch today

When asked if any players had already been signed up and ready to come straight in, in January his answer was "Hand on heart i dont know of any so 'No' is the answer to that"

He also said that the club still weren't prepared to break the wage structure to get us out of this mess He wont bow down to players and their greedy wage demands

He stressed we will still target young and hungry Div 1 players (under 24 mentioned) who will improve the squad and fit in with our wage structure. Quoted £2k a week is an average wage in Div 1 so feels Players would jump at the chance to come here and be good value for money 

However we would consider experienced players over 24 but only if they fall within our wages structure

He thought that Wade Elliot hadn't been replaced in the summer and we were lacking that sort of experienced leader type player

Also he didnt like what he was reading in the paper this week about the squad not being good enough (Obviously a pop at Cotts) SL said he thought the squad were good enough however needed more experience added

A pity Pelling, Cotterill & Burt don't understand English 

[pongo88]

53 minutes ago, Red Right Hand said:

That was my point really. IMO he`s no more than an average championship striker so what do you do if guys like him are on that sort of wedge?

His goal scoring record is nothing special. Shola Ameobi is another who has earned a good living by being average. There are lower league players who could do a similar / better jo for less money. Plus put in a lot more effort during the 90 minutes. Will we get one in January? 

[hortonred]

Having read the post it beggars belief on how little SC and SL must have communicated after our promotion season. What a way to have prepared for our first season back in the Championship. The old adage "fail to prepare, prepare to fail", could be our new motto.

[Kingswood Robin]

On ‎17‎/‎12‎/‎2015 at 17:17, westonred said:

Steve Lansdown spoke at the Snr Reds Xmas lunch today

When asked if any players had already been signed up and ready to come straight in, in January his answer was "Hand on heart i dont know of any so 'No' is the answer to that"

He also said that the club still weren't prepared to break the wage structure to get us out of this mess He wont bow down to players and their greedy wage demands

He stressed we will still target young and hungry Div 1 players (under 24 mentioned) who will improve the squad and fit in with our wage structure. Quoted £2k a week is an average wage in Div 1 so feels Players would jump at the chance to come here and be good value for money 

However we would consider experienced players over 24 but only if they fall within our wages structure

He thought that Wade Elliot hadn't been replaced in the summer and we were lacking that sort of experienced leader type player

Also he didnt like what he was reading in the paper this week about the squad not being good enough (Obviously a pop at Cotts) SL said he thought the squad were good enough however needed more experience added

He didn't like reading that the squad wasn't good enough, well, sometimes the truth hurts.

Hasn't he employed Cotterill to decide if the squad is good enough and what's needed to improve it? I think Brian Clough was right, let the money people sort out the money and let the football people deal with the football.

[The Journalist]

I still find our transfer strategy this summer just absolutely baffling. It's almost like the board and football management team were on completely different wavelengths/had a breakdown in communication.

If I was guessing, I'd say Steve Cotterill and Keith Burt were guided towards a certain pot of dosh in March/April, leading them to scout a certain level of signing, only for this pot to shrink once the season finished.

They were then left chasing a different calibre of player, struggling to recruit having fallen behind the eight ball, prompting the board to eventually sanction a bigger wad of cash for signings - whilst refusing to budge on the wage structure. And so here's where we ended up.

The reason I come to these conclusions (I may be completely wrong, obviously) is that Cotterill and Burt were so clinical in the transfer market in the summer of 2014 I can't believe they've simply miscalculated in 2015. I just don't believe it's all their fault.

Personally, I'm not completely against the policy Steve Lansdown has suggested here, I only hope everyone is singing from the same hymn sheet now.

[Robin Ashton]

11 minutes ago, The Journalist said:

 

If I was guessing, I'd say Steve Cotterill and Keith Burt were guided towards a certain pot of dosh in March/April, leading them to scout a certain level of signing, only for this pot to shrink once the season finished.

Wasn't it the case SC wanted to strengthen the squad towards the end of last season, but was unable to do so, hence there were occasions when the bench wasn't always full?

[Kingswood Robin]

This is starting to look a right mess. If QPR give us a spanking today I think that could well be it for Cotterill. You can't blame the guy for being honest and saying what he wants, if he doesn't, he'll just end up with socks and Lynx Africa again.

I really don't understand the disconnect between what we're prepared to bid and the wages we're prepared to pay. I know people will say wages are dead money, but that's football all over isn't it? 

Do we ever want to progress, or are we happy to remain a 3rd division club in 2nd division clothes.

[The Swan and Cemetery]

Nothing resembling inside knowledge, but some thoughts on possibilities:

• Plan was for Bristol Rugby to get promoted last year. 15k in Premiership is plenty, other than for a couple of exceptions and would have delivered the income to pay for a decent squad, given wages in rugby are lower
• Plan was for City to get promoted this year. 27k stadium, hordes of away fans, up and running income from conferences/corporate enabling more to be spent on players, within a sustainable budget

Happened the wrong way 'round. 

Rugby should get promoted this year given Championship is even weaker than last year, but maybe draining resources to some extent, given array of Premiership players (/wages) and lack of Premiership attendances - interesting that rugby has taken almost the directly opposite approach to City, i.e. lots of expensive (by rugby standards) players with international/top tier experience, which would indicate SL maybe more interested in the overall finances, than a core philosophy re younger players?

City likely to either get relegated or scramble to safety - the former puts us a season behind, the latter gives the chance to open the cheque book a bit on wages, given stadium complete.

Given a relegation struggle is a gamble for up and coming players, guessing loan signings maybe the best we can hope for in January. 

Realise some/a lot of the above might not encourage additional love for Bristol Sport. Personally, think in the long run it will be a good thing (although don't think BS brand needs to be as prominent), with opportunity to sweat assets much more effectively, plus efficiencies with departments that can be brought together (and hopefully, therefore mean increased professionalism, e.g. gift vouchers). However, likely to be bumps along the road that will be difficult to accept, e.g. relegation and getting whooped.