Squad size......

[Tipps69]

Obviously last summers transfer debacle has been done to a death & having now been able to look at The Championship & weigh up what it's all about, I think a major part of thing is the size of the squads towards the middle / top of the division.

I think if we could get a squad of 18-20 players that were classed 1st team, we could be in a position to work our way up the league!

Now I'm not saying we should go out & get a squad of the standard of Andre Grey or Dwight Gayle & spend £6m+ on each incoming player because that will never happen.

I'm talking about getting a squad of the standard of an Aden Flint, Joe Bryan, Luke Freeman or Korey Smith.

These types of players are all steady first teamers who are able to improve their performances & if we had a squad of this sort of standard, we would be able to switch players in & out of the squad & give players a bit of a rest now & then, this is something that all the clubs in the top half are able to do & this allows them to keep their performance levels at a decent level, while helping to avoid those niggling injuries or just shear exhaustion as was the case earlier in the season.

Now this may mean spending a couple of million pounds on possibly 8/9 or maybe even more players but by spreading the cost out & not trying to pump it all on one or two marquee signings, it will mean we should be able to get players in inside our wage budget as well.

Looking at the squad, we are covered for Goal Keepers, Flint & Golbourne at the back & maybe Ayling in the right-back spot, then we are okay with Smith & Bryan in midfield & maybe Pack & having to find a spot for Freeman as I don't think right midfield is his position & then Kodjia up top, so that's 8 or 9 first teamers up to the required standard!!

But that leaves us needing, for just the first eleven, a centre-half, right-midfielder & another striker or "number 10" plus then those others to give us that squad of first teamers of 18-20 players!!

The rest of the permanent squad I'm sorry to say just don't really cut it at Championship level.

So can we really bring in around 10 permanent signings of the required calibre to take us to the next level & have us looking towards the upper echelons of The Championship next season?

Rather than us looking over our shoulders at a relegation spot?

[Murraysrightplum]

A big flabby squad who aren't better than what we have now then?

[Tipps69]

I think the basis of our first team are okay & are able to perform to a better standard than our league position but because they were beasted during the first half or so of the season, they became overrun & were unable to compete!!

You look at Brighton, they were able to change their starting eleven with five players, not of a higher level of those that had played on the Saturday but players that had a better fitness than those they replaced because they had played in previous games!!

If we were able to replace a tired Smith or Kodjia with a fully fit Smith or Kodjia, I've no doubt we would have a few more points on the board plus those that aren't in the starting line-up for a few games will have a point to prove & up their game to prove that point & then you will have the domino affect of the players out of the first eleven always wanting to do better & you'd keep the whole squad hungry to perform better!!

Whereas at the moment we're not in that position & if we have an injury or two, we are having to bring in far inferior players & that then allows for us to get beaten more regularly or for player to have to play while running on empty!!

[Nomad]

22 minutes ago, Tipps69 said:

Obviously last summers transfer debacle has been done to a death & having now been able to look at The Championship & weigh up what it's all about, I think a major part of thing is the size of the squads towards the middle / top of the division.

I think if we could get a squad of 18-20 players that were classed 1st team, we could be in a position to work our way up the league!

Now I'm not saying we should go out & get a squad of the standard of Andre Grey or Dwight Gayle & spend £6m+ on each incoming player because that will never happen.

I'm talking about getting a squad of the standard of an Aden Flint, Joe Bryan, Luke Freeman or Korey Smith.

These types of players are all steady first teamers who are able to improve their performances & if we had a squad of this sort of standard, we would be able to switch players in & out of the squad & give players a bit of a rest now & then, this is something that all the clubs in the top half are able to do & this allows them to keep their performance levels at a decent level, while helping to avoid those niggling injuries or just shear exhaustion as was the case earlier in the season.

Now this may mean spending a couple of million pounds on possibly 8/9 or maybe even more players but by spreading the cost out & not trying to pump it all on one or two marquee signings, it will mean we should be able to get players in inside our wage budget as well.

Looking at the squad, we are covered for Goal Keepers, Flint & Golbourne at the back & maybe Ayling in the right-back spot, then we are okay with Smith & Bryan in midfield & maybe Pack & having to find a spot for Freeman as I don't think right midfield is his position & then Kodjia up top, so that's 8 or 9 first teamers up to the required standard!!

But that leaves us needing, for just the first eleven, a centre-half, right-midfielder & another striker or "number 10" plus then those others to give us that squad of first teamers of 18-20 players!!

The rest of the permanent squad I'm sorry to say just don't really cut it at Championship level.

So can we really bring in around 10 permanent signings of the required calibre to take us to the next level & have us looking towards the upper echelons of The Championship next season?

Rather than us looking over our shoulders at a relegation spot?

I was right with you until I saw Luke Freeman. If you really think he is one of our best players I despair. Very lucky to be getting in the side IMHO. Still living off his good form in League one last season.

[Rich]

We not only need to increase the size of the squad but, we also need to increase the size of those in the squad. Too often I've seen our players unable to compete physically with the strength and speed of the opposition, especially in the latter stages of games, which has ultimately seen us drop points.

[Robin Ashton]

21 minutes ago, Tipps69 said:

 

If we were able to replace a tired Smith or Kodjia with a fully fit Smith or Kodjia,

Cloning our best players is the way to go then.

[Tipps69]

In reply to Nomad.......

 

But maybe if he was able to rest or knew he'd be pushed for his place, it would automatically push him that extra 10-20% to perform to the required standard!!

He's not a poor player, he is just one of many that have been flogged week after week & not allowed to perform at his optimum because of it plus now playing in a foreign position.

Ideally, he could be used in conjunction with Bryan on the left hand side & that would allow us to rest each of them without dropping the standard of the team!!

This season we haven't had the luxury of being able to rest anyone, let alone allow them to get over any niggles that they maybe carrying!!

[Tipps69]

6 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

I don't think we will get any more than 5 permanent ones in. And probably get any more we need on loan. I certainly expect us to have a much stronger squad next season. 

I'm just going what LJ has said recently about not wishing to bring in a loan signing & upsetting the nucleus of the squad, I think he will want permanent signings of which I think a couple will be unknowns for France, Spain or other foreign countries just because of it being more value for money.

I wouldn't be surprised to see one or two loan signings but I believe LJ will ultimately be looking for permanent signings that he knows he will be able to work with for a few seasons & be able to get his playing philosophy into them & know it is more likely to stick over the years rather than someone who will need replacing in a few months or after a season when they go back to their parent club.

[FlintWonderwall]

I wouldn't be expecting 8/9 first teamers this year. 3/4 at most plus loans. The squad will build over time.

[City1970]

2 hours ago, Nomad said:

I was right with you until I saw Luke Freeman. If you really think he is one of our best players I despair. Very lucky to be getting in the side IMHO. Still living off his good form in League one last season.

So is Flint and Bryan.

[twodogs]

8 minutes ago, City1970 said:

So is Flint and Bryan.

Sorry but can't agree with either of those two. Flint is a leader and while not the most skillful on the ball does a fantastic job and would die for the cause. Bryan is a young player learning all the time and will only get better.

[Davefevs]

Wouldn't surprise me to see Winnall and Mawson join up with LJ.

[1960maaan]

I don't think the current squad size is far off, maybe 1 or 2 more max. That said 4 of them are loans. I wasn't Bakers biggest fan but after all this time (depending on fee) I think he would be a good permanent addition along with Tomlin (again depending on form and fee) . Then we would still need to add maybe the other 3 , whether that was loans or not depends on SL and the "war chest" LJ. 

We could obviously do with adding quality, but where I don't think Agard is good enough to take us up the Championship, as a back up he would be useful. The same would apply in a couple of other positions but I think a steady build is the way forward.

[cidered abroad]

13 hours ago, Nomad said:

I was right with you until I saw Luke Freeman. If you really think he is one of our best players I despair. Very lucky to be getting in the side IMHO. Still living off his good form in League one last season.

I'm glad I am not the only one who thinks this. Now the most overrated member of our squad.

[robin_unreliant]

How many of the current squad out of contract in the summer? I think maybe Wilbs and Wagstaff but is that it. We will need at least as big a squad as this year so five loans plus those two suggests we need seven minimum. Would be nice to get 4-5 permanent so we aren't relying on the loan system which I believe FIFA are trying to stop.

[Lrrr]

It's emergency loans isn't it? Nothing to stop us loaning good premier league youngsters etc eg baker, caulker etc on season loans.

[PHILINFRANCE]

1 hour ago, robin_unreliant said:

How many of the current squad out of contract in the summer? I think maybe Wilbs and Wagstaff but is that it. We will need at least as big a squad as this year so five loans plus those two suggests we need seven minimum. Would be nice to get 4-5 permanent so we aren't relying on the loan system which I believe FIFA are trying to stop.

I believe that Wilbs has a clause in his contract whereby he is granted a year's extension if he plays 30 games this season - which he has or will do.

[robin_unreliant]

18 minutes ago, PHILINFRANCE said:

I believe that Wilbs has a clause in his contract whereby he is granted a year's extension if he plays 30 games this season - which he has or will do.

Wasn't that last season? Would be a bit surprised if he had this clause again this time. As he is captain I guess it is possible though.

[Tipps69]

3 hours ago, 1960maaan said:

I don't think the current squad size is far off, maybe 1 or 2 more max. That said 4 of them are loans. I wasn't Bakers biggest fan but after all this time (depending on fee) I think he would be a good permanent addition along with Tomlin (again depending on form and fee) . Then we would still need to add maybe the other 3 , whether that was loans or not depends on SL and the "war chest" LJ. 

We could obviously do with adding quality, but where I don't think Agard is good enough to take us up the Championship, as a back up he would be useful. The same would apply in a couple of other positions but I think a steady build is the way forward.

But my point being is that I'd expect us to try & get a squad of the standard of the players I stated previously & those players being permanent signings, which would mean replacing Wagstaff, Wilbraham, Agard, Reid, Burns, Little, Williams, El Abd & then the loan signings of Baker & Tomlin (am I missing any other loan signings?)

So that in theory would mean a possible 10 new players & that may well be dependant on us being able to move those players out first & if that's possible, I don't think we will be looking at making the "marquee" signings of a Grey or Gayle but of a more low key player / fee that will enable us to up the standard / quality of the squad to our higher quality players so that the quality of the squad will have been raised on this season, allowing us to swap players over on a match day without significantly dropping the quality of our starting 11, which can't be said for our current squad / team.

[...]

It always comes down to a discussion about 'size', does it not?

Why are we so paranoid about 'size'?

Is it too big - is it too small.

"Yada-yada".

We should all just work with what we have been given, and be happy.

 

Uncle TFR

[1960maaan]

1 hour ago, Tipps69 said:

But my point being is that I'd expect us to try & get a squad of the standard of the players I stated previously & those players being permanent signings, which would mean replacing Wagstaff, Wilbraham, Agard, Reid, Burns, Little, Williams, El Abd & then the loan signings of Baker & Tomlin (am I missing any other loan signings?)

So that in theory would mean a possible 10 new players & that may well be dependant on us being able to move those players out first & if that's possible, I don't think we will be looking at making the "marquee" signings of a Grey or Gayle but of a more low key player / fee that will enable us to up the standard / quality of the squad to our higher quality players so that the quality of the squad will have been raised on this season, allowing us to swap players over on a match day without significantly dropping the quality of our starting 11, which can't be said for our current squad / team.

I can't see us signing 10 players of enough quality ffor the purpose, I do think we will rely on the loan system again and gradually build the side, specially after LJ said about disturbing the changing room.

1 hour ago, Taxi for Rennie said:

It always comes down to a discussion about 'size', does it not?

Why are we so paranoid about 'size'?

Is it too big - is it too small.

"Yada-yada".

We should all just work with what we have been given, and be happy.

 

Uncle TFR

Thing is , because of the loans it is actually smaller than it appears 

[Lanterne Rouge]

Couldn`t sleep last night and found myself thinking about the squad for next season.

How does this sound and would it be competitive in the championship (names in brackets are loans converted to permanent or new signings) ;

GK  O`Donnell, Fielding, O`Leary

RB  Ayling, Little, Vyner

CB  Flint, (Pearce), Williams, (Curtis Nelson - Plymouth), (Alfie Mawson - Barnsley), El Abd

LB  Golbourne

RM  (Albert - Middlesbrough), Burns, Freeman*

CM  Smith, Pack, Reid, (Tomlin), (Conor Hourihane - Barnsley)

LM  Bryan, Freeman*, Wagstaff, (Kemar Roofe - Oxford)

ST  Kodjia, Agard, (Sam Winnall - Barnsley), (Tom Bradshaw - Walsall), (Ashley Barnes - Burnley), (Nicky Ajose - Swindon)

I`ve purposely not included Baker as I think either Villa will want him back or wages will be an issue. I`ve also assumed Wilbs will retire. Freeman`s there twice as he can play on either side. I`ve not included Bradley Dack as a potential signing as I think he`s overpriced.

With some cover at left back for Scott Golbourne and maybe another right back, I don`t think that would be a bad squad. I reckon all the newbies are gettable and wouldn`t cost more than about 6-8m in total.

Tin hat on now!

[Lrrr]

Albert won't be returning, either Boro go up and then either want him or he goes to a top champ club, or Boro don't go up and he stays. As for LB cover Bryan and Williams could easily act as cover.

For the new signings I can't see Barnsley selling us 3 of their players.

[Lanterne Rouge]

10 minutes ago, hodge said:

Albert won't be returning, either Boro go up and then either want him or he goes to a top champ club, or Boro don't go up and he stays. As for LB cover Bryan and Williams could easily act as cover.

For the new signings I can't see Barnsley selling us 3 of their players.

Fair comments but Albert`s still got a love for the club and does seem to have these occasional fallouts with Boro. He`s also the sort of bloke who`s not all about the money I reckon. As far as Barnsley are concerned, money talks and if we offered 3-3.5mill for all three, I think they`d at least talk to us.

[simon uk]

Good post. My opinion is that we need to look higher than those players to take us to the next level. Tomlin on a perm is a good start, there are loads of experienced championship midfielders around, like lansbury and cohen at forest, and judge at brentford. I saw mile jedaniak is on the bench usually at palace, if we could get him he would be an excellent upgrade on pack and much less of a risk than dack.depends on what the objectives are for the season, 3 or 4 signings at this level should put us in the top 10. Also, all things being equal do we have a top 10 championship keeper on the books?

[Tipps69]

1 hour ago, simon uk said:

Good post. My opinion is that we need to look higher than those players to take us to the next level. Tomlin on a perm is a good start, there are loads of experienced championship midfielders around, like lansbury and cohen at forest, and judge at brentford. I saw mile jedaniak is on the bench usually at palace, if we could get him he would be an excellent upgrade on pack and much less of a risk than dack.depends on what the objectives are for the season, 3 or 4 signings at this level should put us in the top 10. Also, all things being equal do we have a top 10 championship keeper on the books?

And we're seemingly back hunting for the likes of Grey & Gayle!!

Burnley we're locked in protracted talks for Lansbury over the summer for a transfer of £5m+ & Judge was linked with them during this winters transfer window for £4m+!!

We should of learnt from last summer & be aiming slightly lower with our targets, to be able to get the required players in who will up the quality of our squad to match the quality of our better players & with the hope that LJ is able to improve those players further to help move the whole squad forward.

That's my opinion on things!

[GrahamC]

We'll need five new players this summer.

In an ideal world Nathan Baker and Lee Tomlin would be two of them but their wages rather than their fees might make that tricky.

Certainly we need a couple of defenders (I'm expecting Pearce and Baker not to return), a couple of midfielders (Galdwin has already gone back and Waggy, bless him, is out of contract) and a striker to assist/ take some pressure off Kodjia.

[Tipps69]

10 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

We'll need five new players this summer.

In an ideal world Nathan Baker and Lee Tomlin would be two of them but their wages rather than their fees might make that tricky.

Certainly we need a couple of defenders (I'm expecting Pearce and Baker not to return), a couple of midfielders (Galdwin has already gone back and Waggy, bless him, is out of contract) and a striker to assist/ take some pressure off Kodjia.

But would that not leave us short of cover & not allow us significant cover?

The same problems that we have encountered this season, which has been the main reason why we haven't been able to rest / rotate players.

We need to be looking at a deeper squad, with the standard slightly raised so that we don't particularly notice when the changes are made unlike now.

And from reading the notes on the Q&A with SL, Nathan Baker looks unlikely as Villa will probably see him as someone who is able to do them a job in this division when they are probably relegated!!

[Lrrr]

Depending on his wages Waggy could be good cover for us, seems a player who won't kick up a fuss about being on the bench most weeks, if he wants to move on for first team football fair enough but otherwise could be worth keeping hold of.

[GrahamC]

Well, having 2 more options in midfield than we have now (no disrespect at all to Waggy but he isn't a first choice), an additional defender option (as Baker has been an automatic pick, Pearce not) and another first choice striker would definitely make us stronger than we have been.

That would takes us up around 21 players plus the likes of Vyner and those with us this season like Flint, Freeman, Smith, Bryan and Ayling would all have a full season's Championship football under their belt, unlike last summer.