U21's tonight

[RedRock]

11 minutes ago, spudski said:

The difference being...you have the likes of Kodjia being technically inept...yet still able to score a good amount of goals in the Championship.

Forget the result...the team playing tonight are never going to play together in the Championship.

It's individual performances that will get noticed over a season....not the academy 'team'.

It's decision making, performances by the individual that will get noticed over a period of time....and whether they can step up to the next level.

Too much is defined by results....I can gaurentee that the majority of tonights Coventry team wont make it....yet they still won 4-0....so what?

As a scout or coach, you look at personal development, not 'team' performance.

Get down there and watch for yourself...you might then see the difference.

I would get down, if I lived closer.

Is it 15 years since The Academy was set up? Based on 'individual performances' have we even got near to producing a commanding centre-half or goal scoring centre-forward to even get on the fringe of the first team? In 15 years!!!!!

Don't get me wrong. Nothing more I would love of having a team full of Academy Graduates. I was sceptical when the FA came out with The Academy concept. With very few exceptions, the whole idea has been an adject failure. Seems to me the Academy concept is all froth, no substance. 

I think Plan B is long over due. If the FA Blazers won't admit the failure of the system, then it's up to individual Clubs to scrap it and adopt their own approach to player development. Any alternative approach can't be any worse than want we have now. Maybe our own Mr Charisma will take the lead and come up with something that 'delivers' - we want 'real tangible results' not more weasel words. 

 

[Esmond Million's Bung]

27 minutes ago, spudski said:

The difference being...you have the likes of Kodjia being technically inept...yet still able to score a good amount of goals in the Championship.

Forget the result...the team playing tonight are never going to play together in the Championship.

It's individual performances that will get noticed over a season....not the academy 'team'.

It's decision making, performances by the individual that will get noticed over a period of time....and whether they can step up to the next level.

Too much is defined by results....I can gaurentee that the majority of tonights Coventry team wont make it....yet they still won 4-0....so what?

As a scout or coach, you look at personal development, not 'team' performance.

Get down there and watch for yourself...you might then see the difference.

and for me there somewhat lies the problem, I managed to watch about 20 minutes of the Blackburn v Chelsea FA youth cup semi final and in the end gave up in exasperation because you are correct, it was about arrogant molly coddled individuals thinking individually about me, me, me, the team play for the most went out of the window it resembled a street soccer skills TV advert at times, (and let me just say I am sure the he will make the grade and be a valuable player as he progresses) maybe just maybe the coaching of 'individual performance' is responsible for Zac Veneer's performance v Brighton, where it was obvious at times he was too confident and tried things not in the best interests of the team?.

Skill and individuality is great and to be encouraged but football is a team game, for me the difference is this, at Manu young players like Martial and Rashford have come into the team and are making great strides because they fit into the team ethic, whereas Januzaj has done less than sweet FA since his explosion onto the scene 3 years ago, because of his 'individual performances', believing that he can beat everybody in front of him and then beat them again after he has turned himself inside out.

 

[RedRock]

8 minutes ago, Monkeh said:

sorry you must of missed the fact the bryan goldborne and ried are playing for the first team you know academy graduates? what about skuse? he's making a pretty good living after graduating, Burns is coming along, 

the academny isn't about results nether is youth team football its  about player develpment and the sooner people get that the better

... 'about player development' and that is one of the root causes of failure. Start point.... Football is a team game, the purpose is to win, to win you need to win your individual battle against your opponent and, critically, to win the team battle against the opposition. That needs to be drummed in from Day 1. Failure individually and as a team is unacceptable. 

The FA coaching book, I have no doubt, misses out the word 'WINNERS'. We want winners, those who will fight to their very last ounce of energy to win. Seems to me The Academy has developed the mentality 'I did a fancy ball trick today, doesn't matter we lost 10-0, I'm happy'.

Interesting that Goldbourne moved away to improve, Bryan is a natural athlete and I suspect would have developed without Academy, Reid and Burns jury still out. I would still ask where's my graduates in the key positions,... goal scoring centre forward, match saving centre half? 

 

[Esmond Million's Bung]

2 minutes ago, Moor2Sea said:

... 'about player development' and that is one of the root causes of failure. Start point.... Football is a team game, the purpose is to win, to win you need to win your individual battle against your opponent and, critically, to win the team battle against the opposition. That needs to be drummed in from Day 1. Failure individually and as a team is unacceptable. 

The FA coaching book, I have no doubt, misses out the word 'WINNERS'. We want winners, those who will fight to their very last ounce of energy to win. Seems to me The Academy has developed the mentality 'I did a fancy ball trick today, doesn't matter we lost 10-0, I'm happy'.

Interesting that Goldbourne moved away to improve, Bryan is a natural athlete and I suspect would have developed without Academy, Reid and Burns jury still out. I would still ask where's my graduates in the key positions,... goal scoring centre forward, match saving centre half? 

 

Just to add balance, hopefully your concerns have been identified hence the recent and ongoing changes and maybe that is why LJ has hinted at more young players going out on loan before the end of the season, to learn the team ethic.

But yes the balance at our academy should be don't stifle individuality but also engrain the team ethic, otherwise you are bringing through people happy to climb over everybody to get to the top and at any expense.

[Robin1988]

Six academy players have played for us this season @Moor2Sea. If you're going to call it a waste of money, bla bla bla, you could have picked a better time.

We're 7th out of 10 in an U21 league including Crystal Palace and Watford. We've got a significant number of youth internationals in our ranks. I could go on.

[Natchfever]

32 minutes ago, Monkeh said:

you mean ontop of the millions he's already invested to get level 2 status

This doing things on the cheap is complete and utter bullshit

No it isn't bullshit.

The millions spent are in facilities which I said before - how much money is spent on the other areas needed to produce a genuinely productive academy.?

You are clearly ITK so please enlighten me.

[Cowshed]

Moor2sea

Attitude - psychology is one of the FA's four corners. It is part of City;s development model.

"Bryan is a natural athlete"

Having had the privilege of talking to his former coaches they informed my son he is a great listener, and works hard to improve. It is not a natural attribute like slow and fast twitch fibres, or body shape. Its an attitude - psychology.

Start point is hard work, commitment to honing technique not just winners. "Winners" is the obsession that leads to England producing poor players. Winners is the big lump in class who years later gets exposed. This last once of energy has to change, that is a XI of Headless chickens.

[RedRock]

1 minute ago, Robin1988 said:

Six academy players have played for us this season @Moor2Sea. If you're going to call it a waste of money, bla bla bla, you could have picked a better time.

We're 7th out of 10 in an U21 league including Crystal Palace and Watford. We've got a significant number of youth internationals in our ranks. I could go on.

I've said it from virtually Day 1, alongside Ashton Yate. 

I'm into results, in 15 odd years, the Club has not progressed despite significant investment in and focus on the Academy. For 15 years we've heard 'always tomorrow', so brilliant, we're now 7th out of 10. I accept that's a massive result and gives real hope for the future. 

Set aside lack of any impact on the field, the business case is an absolute disaster. Millions invested for naff all income. To look at the players mentioned above... Skuse left on free, Goldbourne cost us £300,000, Reid and Burns combined value perhaps £150,000, only Bryan has any potential real worth. So in 15 years out goings say £15 million, potential income at £150,000 plus Bryan, say at £1 million potential. 

Had we invested £15million in an alternative approach, well, who knows. Don't think it could be any worse though. Personally, I would have invested in a comprehensive scouting network for the lower leagues.

[Selred]

@Moor2Sea are you Gary Johnson??

[Cowshed]

"Had we invested £15million in an alternative approach"

Like the buying more and more Hunts, James, Stewarts, Stuyvars Mr Lansdown could have wracked up some proper debts instead of pocket money losses of tens of millions. The business case was a disaster.

[RedRock]

13 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Moor2sea

Attitude - psychology is one of the FA's four corners. It is part of City;s development model.

"Bryan is a natural athlete"

Having had the privilege of talking to his former coaches they informed my son he is a great listener, and works hard to improve. It is not a natural attribute like slow and fast twitch fibres, or body shape. Its an attitude - psychology.

Start point is hard work, commitment to honing technique not just winners. "Winners" is the obsession that leads to England producing poor players. Winners is the big lump in class who years later gets exposed. This last once of energy has to change, that is a XI of Headless chickens.

I'm sure that the FA are proud of  the Wilshere's, Lallana's, Henderson's of this world. Technically, occasional flashes of brilliance, winners and people who will 'dig-in' when the going gets tough, nah.

Give me a team full of Gow's any day. 

 

[Natchfever]

7 minutes ago, Moor2Sea said:

I've said it from virtually Day 1, alongside Ashton Yate. 

I'm into results, in 15 odd years, the Club has not progressed despite significant investment in and focus on the Academy. For 15 years we've heard 'always tomorrow', so brilliant, we're now 7th out of 10. I accept that's a massive result and gives real hope for the future. 

Set aside lack of any impact on the field, the business case is an absolute disaster. Millions invested for naff all income. To look at the players mentioned above... Skuse left on free, Goldbourne cost us £300,000, Reid and Burns combined value perhaps £150,000, only Bryan has any potential real worth. So in 15 years out goings say £15 million, potential income at £150,000 plus Bryan, say at £1 million potential. 

Had we invested £15million in an alternative approach, well, who knows. Don't think it could be any worse though. Personally, I would have invested in a comprehensive scouting network for the lower leagues.

We let Rosnenior go for ****all because the club was ignorant. Lita was also a product. They were worth a few bob although to be fair they came to City when about 16. Arsenal allegedly bid c £1m for Kevin Amankwa too. I agree with you though that we should have a much better scouting network.

[RedRock]

1 minute ago, Cowshed said:

"Had we invested £15million in an alternative approach"

Like the buying more and more Hunts, James, Stewarts, Stuyvars Mr Lansdown could have wracked up some proper debts instead of pocket money losses of tens of millions. The business case was a disaster.

Yes, all purchases based on a real quality scouting network. 

[Natchfever]

2 minutes ago, Moor2Sea said:

I'm sure that the FA are proud of  the Wilshere's, Lallana's, Henderson's of this world. Technically, occasional flashes of brilliance, winners and people who will 'dig-in' when the going gets tough, nah.

Give me a team full of Gow's any day. 

 

I think there needs to be a balance personally. Some of the best technical players put their foot in.

[RedRock]

6 minutes ago, Selred said:

@Moor2Sea are you Gary Johnson??

As you asked, Cotts actually.

[Cowshed]

"Dig in"

Pretty sure digging trenches won't work.

"Going gets tough"

Revert to training, deny space, stay on feet, pass it, be disciplined, keep shape. That is tough.

"Give me a team full of Gow's any day".

My favourite player, but how would his abrasive side fit in to modern football?

[Robin1988]

15 minutes ago, Moor2Sea said:

I've said it from virtually Day 1, alongside Ashton Yate. 

I'm into results, in 15 odd years, the Club has not progressed despite significant investment in and focus on the Academy. For 15 years we've heard 'always tomorrow', so brilliant, we're now 7th out of 10. I accept that's a massive result and gives real hope for the future. 

Set aside lack of any impact on the field, the business case is an absolute disaster. Millions invested for naff all income. To look at the players mentioned above... Skuse left on free, Goldbourne cost us £300,000, Reid and Burns combined value perhaps £150,000, only Bryan has any potential real worth. So in 15 years out goings say £15 million, potential income at £150,000 plus Bryan, say at £1 million potential. 

Had we invested £15million in an alternative approach, well, who knows. Don't think it could be any worse though. Personally, I would have invested in a comprehensive scouting network for the lower leagues.

You're taking a potshot at the long-term failings when we're starting to get it right. We've got academy graduates in and around the team at a good level; the last time we had this many, it was in League One (Division 2, whatever) and the lower leagues were much worse than they are now. If we're starting to get it right and reaping the rewards... why not embrace it?

[RedRock]

11 minutes ago, Robin1988 said:

You're taking a potshot at the long-term failings when we're starting to get it right. We've got academy graduates in and around the team at a good level; the last time we had this many, it was in League One (Division 2, whatever) and the lower leagues were much worse than they are now. If we're starting to get it right and reaping the rewards... why not embrace it?

I would, if I hadn't heard  'trust me, we're getting things right' annually for the past 15 years. Added to that, I then look at the results and recycling of staff happenings of this week and you reach a point where you say 'sod it', about time those promoting a radical alternative approach were given a chance.

These aren't long term failings by the way, these are actual events, this week. 

The great thing about an Academy is that you can promise 'always tomorrow'. 

 

[Selred]

17 minutes ago, Robin1988 said:

You're taking a potshot at the long-term failings when we're starting to get it right. We've got academy graduates in and around the team at a good level; the last time we had this many, it was in League One (Division 2, whatever) and the lower leagues were much worse than they are now. If we're starting to get it right and reaping the rewards... why not embrace it?

As much as I think the academy is a good thing, I do disagree with your point about embracing the good times.

We cannot become complacent just because we have a few academy grads in and around the first team. 

Unfortunately we do need to improve and strive to get category 1 status. I'd personally offer Matt Hale the role of head of academy. He's head of Southamptons and he will stop complacency. He removed two of their highly regarded coaches because they were only their on past glory, we need that ruthless approach to move forward with ours. 

In regards to investment, yes our facilities are improving, but don't forget we are now paying fee's for highly regarded academy players such as Garita, Baldwin and Pring I believe.

[Cowshed]

"about time those promoting a radical alternative approach were given a chance"

Increase spending, increases losses, get Mr Lansdown to pay for it is anything but radical.

Your views on winners = digging in, getting tough, bombing on, ball winning centre halves are archaic, not radical.

[Robin1988]

8 minutes ago, Moor2Sea said:

I would, if I hadn't heard  'trust me, we're getting things right' annually for the past 15 years. Added to that, I then look at the results and recycling of staff happenings of this week and you reach a point where you say 'sod it', about time those promoting a radical alternative approach were given a chance.

But the proof is in the pudding; O'Leary, Golbourne, Vyner, Bryan, Reid, Burns have all played, Wollacott and Morrell have made the bench. Now is not a 'sod it' moment.

7 minutes ago, Selred said:

Unfortunately we do need to improve and strive to get category 1 status. I'd personally offer Matt Hale the role of head of academy. He's head of Southamptons and he will stop complacency. He removed two of their highly regarded coaches because they were only their on past glory, we need that ruthless approach to move forward with ours. 

Getting Cat 1 is a huge ask, largely as we've been so poor/average at that level for so long. Most of the clubs I don't think this is a time for complacency, but we should at least look at the academy more positively than when we were producing players headed straight for non-league. Brighton aside, Cat 1 is full of teams with a Premier League history. It's a big ask to get up to that standard. We can do it, but we've only just got cat 2 right and so it'll take a while.

[Numero Uno]

26 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

"about time those promoting a radical alternative approach were given a chance"

Increase spending, increases losses, get Mr Lansdown to pay for it is anything but radical.

Your views on winners = digging in, getting tough, bombing on, ball winning centre halves are archaic, not radical.

I know what you are trying to say but all of those things you are condemning above do have to be done in a game of football and they are done by Barcelona players for that matter. A centre half does need to win headers and be brave, players do need to be able to tackle, some of the finest full backs in the world do "bomb on" when it's right to do so and the best teams throughout the history of football have possessed character when the going gets tough and are able to "dig in".

Sometimes the beautiful game isn't as beautiful as we'd all like. When you're 1-0 up with 2 minutes of injury time left you do pop the free kick from the half way line into the corner flag, sometimes you do "take one for the team" when a player is getting away from you !! Look at Schlupp for Leicester City last week when he kept the ball in the corner for a whole 90 SECONDS ensuring they got the 1-0 win. Far better players than BCFC Academy lads have done it and will continue to do it as long as football is played. You can still take solace from the fact that for 88 of the 90 minutes you played lovely football !!

[Cowshed]

"I know what you are trying to say but all of those things you are condemning"

I do not condemn them at all. A prerequisite of modern football is now advancing levels of technical ability. The "Winners get stuck in" mentality alone is not enough.

The poster in question has an antipathy to the academy, academies and youth development and seem to want football to regress back to the era of shoulder charges and the tackle from behind.

The question regarding Gerry Gow was left unanswered.

I am a coach, but above all a supporter of BCFC providing local kids ever more opportunity to fulfil their potential, and this provide more players for the first XI. I do not favour a win at costs mentality even if the great cost was to be a XI of foreign players. the shedding of the academy and the FC carrying debts that Mr Lansdown has to write off/restructure.

The former there goes to the core of what I feel Bristol City and football clubs should be.

"in a game of football and they are done by Barcelona players for that matter"

Off at a little tangent, but Barcelonas high line / six second press is very different to
the Anglo Saxon get stuck in.

[Natchfever]

2 hours ago, Selred said:

As much as I think the academy is a good thing, I do disagree with your point about embracing the good times.

We cannot become complacent just because we have a few academy grads in and around the first team. 

Unfortunately we do need to improve and strive to get category 1 status. I'd personally offer Matt Hale the role of head of academy. He's head of Southamptons and he will stop complacency. He removed two of their highly regarded coaches because they were only their on past glory, we need that ruthless approach to move forward with ours. 

In regards to investment, yes our facilities are improving, but don't forget we are now paying fee's for highly regarded academy players such as Garita, Baldwin and Pring I believe.

Matt Hale one of our own and a superb coach and judge of player.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

3 hours ago, Selred said:

As much as I think the academy is a good thing, I do disagree with your point about embracing the good times.

We cannot become complacent just because we have a few academy grads in and around the first team. 

Unfortunately we do need to improve and strive to get category 1 status. I'd personally offer Matt Hale the role of head of academy. He's head of Southamptons and he will stop complacency. He removed two of their highly regarded coaches because they were only their on past glory, we need that ruthless approach to move forward with ours. 

In regards to investment, yes our facilities are improving, but don't forget we are now paying fee's for highly regarded academy players such as Garita, Baldwin and Pring I believe.

I agree, sadly it seems that in the past nobody has deemed to scrutinise the coaching at various levels at our club and any such scrutiny is classed as interference, they to are employees and their work should be subject to the same scrutiny as any other employee of the club and as I said in a previous post, empire building and back stabbing stamped out.

 

[cidered abroad]

3 hours ago, Cowshed said:

"Dig in"

Pretty sure digging trenches won't work.

"Going gets tough"

Revert to training, deny space, stay on feet, pass it, be disciplined, keep shape. That is tough.

"Give me a team full of Gow's any day".

My favourite player, but how would his abrasive side fit in to modern football?

He would fit very well. Gerry Gow was a much better footballer than many gave him credit for. Not the fastest in a sprint, but he read the game so well that he was often there before other lesser mortals even realised what was happening.

He never shirked a tackle but that was expected in those days. I am convinced that if he was around now, instead of the seventies, he would have been gobbled up by a Prem side before he got to 20 years of age.

[RedRock]

2 hours ago, Cowshed said:

"about time those promoting a radical alternative approach were given a chance"

Increase spending, increases losses, get Mr Lansdown to pay for it is anything but radical.

Your views on winners = digging in, getting tough, bombing on, ball winning centre halves are archaic, not radical.

Wouldn't ask SL for extra monies, just divert existing into a top level scouting network. Simples. 

Your concept then is a bunch of moderately skilled individuals, who will occasionally produce an odd trick or two, but who have little concept of winning  as an individual or team as they've been brought up in a pampered world of 'results don't matter'. The SOD 'performance not results' philosophy. That was a success wasn't it! We're breeding a load of 'lightweights' mentally and physically. Look at them all Walcott, Oxide-Chamberlain, Wilshere, Sterling, Henderson, Lanalla.... 

Nah, I'm results driven. Archaic maybe, but a World Cup, repeat European Cups with teams packed with British players ..... and then our adoption of a European approach ... decades lost. We should have developed our English game not try and copy others. Jesz... Greece can win a Trophy based on teamwork while we flounder around trying to turn ourselves into Spain and Barcleona with zero trophies to our name and Premiership teams packed full of foreign 'Barcelonaesque' journeymen. That's worked well for Chelsea, Arsenal and Man U and City hasn't it.

We've taken a wrong turning and as long as the denialists keep telling us 'things will be better tomorrrow' we will continue to lurch from one FA coaching manual crisis to another and win **** all. I'm sure though SOD will be re-employed soon by the FA to produce Edition Z of the manual entitled 'More Possession'. 

Revolution is what's required Mr Lansdown. 

Said this for 15 years - investment in the Academy hasn't moved us on one inch so far, so there's my proof of failure. Your case? Well, as you say there's always tomorrow, or if it doesn't happen then it will be the day after that ......

[Monkeh]

6 minutes ago, Moor2Sea said:

Wouldn't ask SL for extra monies, just divert existing into a top level scouting network. Simples. 

Your concept then is a bunch of moderately skilled individuals, who will occasionally produce an odd trick or two, but who have little concept of winning  as an individual or team as they've been brought up in a pampered world of 'results don't matter'. The SOD 'performance not results' philosophy. That was a success wasn't it! We're breeding a load of 'lightweights' mentally and physically. Look at them all Walcott, Oxide-Chamberlain, Wilshere, Sterling, Henderson, Lanalla.... 

Nah, I'm results driven. Archaic maybe, but a World Cup, repeat European Cups with teams packed with British players ..... and then our adoption of a European approach ... decades lost. We should have developed our English game not try and copy others. Jesz... Greece can win a Trophy based on teamwork while we flounder around trying to turn ourselves into Spain and Barcleona with zero trophies to our name and Premiership teams packed full of foreign 'Barcelonaesque' journeymen. That's worked well for Chelsea, Arsenal and Man U and City hasn't it.

We've taken a wrong turning and as long as the denialists keep telling us 'things will be better tomorrrow' we will continue to lurch from one FA coaching manual crisis to another and win **** all. I'm sure though SOD will be re-employed soon by the FA to produce Edition Z of the manual entitled 'More Possession'. 

Revolution is what's required Mr Lansdown. 

Said this for 15 years - investment in the Academy hasn't moved us on one inch so far, so there's my proof of failure. Your case? Well, as you say there's always tomorrow, or if it doesn't happen then it will be the day after that ......

15 years ago we were a mid table league one team finishing 8 points off the play-offs 

We are now a league higher and have spent 8 out of the last 10 seasons in a league higher,

We are actually producing players for the first team that can hold their own at championship level, where as before we were producing player that could hold their own at league one level,

We aren't going to produce 10 - 15 players ever season its impossible and no club on this planet can do it, what we are doing is starting to bring some through, Bryan and Reid are living proof of this,

Too say we haven't moved on for fifteen years is simply insulting to fans and the club, this club and I include the academy in that has come on leaps and bounds,

Just look round ashton gate and the training ground 

[Cowshed]

Moor2sea when frequently asked what this English developed game is you have been unable to articulate what it is, beyond "bombing on", or provide parallels.

So Mr Lansdown would clearly have to dedicate large sums of money to whatever it is you think these scouts would be targeting.

As pointed (frequently) out England has never attempted to copy Spain, or Barcelona. The FA's four corners is not Spians fidelity concept, or its regional variances.

Your undefined revolution IS spend more. more, more Mr Lansdown.

My case? Is that Bristol City has not focused for fifteen years on the academy as you assert. The club has lurched from idea to idea to debt to pillars to Directors of football to Manager and Head coaches. Its been made up as it went along.

There has been no long term strategy.

I would have liked to have seen more investement in the academy years ago v the spend, spend mentality that generated losses of tens of millions. For a fraction of those losses BCFC could have built something akin to Southamptons Staplewood Campus, invested in Sports science and a network of coaches to identify talent for its player pathway, and targets for its first team.

Yes the above has been a success. Yes it would be a be of benefit to Bristol and its community. Yes it would fit in with an ideal some mooted on here of Bristol Sport being a regional sporting hub in the manner of Spain, yes that would fit in with my ideal of clubs being community assets ... So there it is a club that scouts (locally and elsewhere), develops and attempts to be the Pride of the West by nurturing local talent, while also widely focusing its scouting on necessary signings.

[RedRock]

I've not been asked to articulate it, but now you have ....

High tempo, pressing, aggressive, positive game. Model Man United, you know, before they had the foreign import Barca type player revolution and when they regularly swept the trophy board here and in Europe. The type of football we might have played if Clough had been appointed as opposed to the 'style' the Greenwood FA types serve up. 

Out with the greater possession theory with loads of backwards and sideways passing, in with focus on attempts on goal. Out with results don't matter approach, in with win-at-all-costs attitude. Emphasis on teamwork rather than individualism. 

As I said, no doubt SOD will be returning to the England set-up soon. So your 'style/approach' wins for another decade of trophy-less boredom. Enjoy.