TinMan's left peg Posted April 23, 2016 Report Share Posted April 23, 2016 http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2016/apr/22/aston-villa-charlton-athletic-owners-relegated Unfortunately this is becoming the norm in English (and Welsh) football. It is basically pot luck if the rich people buying your club do it well (Leicester, Bournemouth) or completely wreck it (Villa, Charlton). We have been very lucky with SL, clearly him being local and a fan makes a big difference, but there are essentially no safeguards in the system at all. There needs to be fan driven pressure to follow the German model although I worry we are too late with this. Football clubs should have received English heritage style protection long ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Hitler Posted April 23, 2016 Report Share Posted April 23, 2016 Every club should have a Steve Lansdown. Local, existing supporter, in it for the long term (generations!), lessons learned on chasing the dream, turning it into a properly run business. If other clubs are bought by charlatans and implode they will rise again under fan stewardship, older, wiser, and smaller. Exeter survived Michael Jackson, Uri Geller, and a load of flannel about becoming the biggest overseas club in Japan (or was that Plymouth?) to emerge as a fan-owned stable well-run third / fourth division club. All clubs with decent fan support bounce back eventually whatever happens to them. We did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 23, 2016 Report Share Posted April 23, 2016 Thing is sometimes it can start off well. Villa fans used to love Lerner until the point he wanted to sell up and stop funding them. He's going to loose a lot more now than if he'd have carried on supporting them and selling them while still a decent top half side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chipdawg Posted April 23, 2016 Report Share Posted April 23, 2016 The whole model of 'rich guy buys football club, endlessly funds on-field success' just isn't sustainable. The only way to make serious cash is through a) buying a shit club and making them good or b) buying a good club and regularly reaching the latter stages of the champions league. That means there is very much a finite number of clubs who can prosper by those methods. If you're a Man Utd or Liverpool you can survive not meeting criteria (b) for a couple of seasons because of the fan base. If you're run sensibly like Burnley, relegation doesn't matter. If you've bought a load of players your club can't afford and you get relegated, you're screwed. I wonder when the penny will drop that clubs need to start producing their own players to thrive? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spudski Posted April 23, 2016 Report Share Posted April 23, 2016 12 minutes ago, Eddie Hitler said: Every club should have a Steve Lansdown. Local, existing supporter, in it for the long term (generations!), lessons learned on chasing the dream, turning it into a properly run business. If other clubs are bought by charlatans and implode they will rise again under fan stewardship, older, wiser, and smaller. Exeter survived Michael Jackson, Uri Geller, and a load of flannel about becoming the biggest overseas club in Japan (or was that Plymouth?) to emerge as a fan-owned stable well-run third / fourth division club. All clubs with decent fan support bounce back eventually whatever happens to them. We did. Good points EH...The biggest problem to a certain extent are the fans. I would rather let my Club die and let it rise from the ashes again, than continue to support them financially by going and supporting, if it was owned by someone I didn't agree with. You can demonstrate all you like at the ground etc...but the only way you will effect a club, is by walking away with your feet and money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
formerly known as ivan Posted April 23, 2016 Report Share Posted April 23, 2016 Right now I would say hashtags are footballs biggest problem, closely followed by owners and then Sky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spudski Posted April 23, 2016 Report Share Posted April 23, 2016 4 minutes ago, formerly known as ivan said: 4 minutes ago, formerly known as ivan said: Right now I would say hashtags are footballs biggest problem, closely followed by owners and then Sky Right now I would say hashtags are footballs biggest problem, closely followed by owners and then Sky Hashtags might be a problem...and people will complain about them...but guess what...the fans will still go out and buy them. The only way the Club won't do it again, is if fans don't buy them, so they will continue to do whatever they want. I blame the fans for a lot of things that happen in football, because they complain a lot, but very rarely speak with their feet or wallet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
screech Posted April 23, 2016 Report Share Posted April 23, 2016 6 minutes ago, spudski said: Hashtags might be a problem...and people will complain about them...but guess what...the fans will still go out and buy them. The only way the Club won't do it again, is if fans don't buy them, so they will continue to do whatever they want. I blame the fans for a lot of things that happen in football, because they complain a lot, but very rarely speak with their feet or wallet. You only need look at our first game of the season to see the hypocrisy in fans. People moaned about the disgusting prices yet, they still went. How is that helping to change minds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spudski Posted April 23, 2016 Report Share Posted April 23, 2016 1 minute ago, screech said: You only need look at our first game of the season to see the hypocrisy in fans. People moaned about the disgusting prices yet, they still went. How is that helping to change minds. And football Clubs know this. You get occasion like at Liverpool where they went back on price increases...but in general it doesn't happen. The only way football will change in this country, and if fans really do want it to change, then they have to walk with their feet. It won't happen though...as there are plenty of fans that are quiet happy with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TinMan's left peg Posted April 23, 2016 Author Report Share Posted April 23, 2016 I should say that it's not the on field debacle of Villa / Charlton etc. that bothers me. Relegation and being sh**e at football are part and parcel of the sport. In fact the rich owners of the top clubs who plan to exempt themselves from relegation or guarantee CL each season are much worse. It's the fact that owners can come in and strip a club of its identity at will without any safeguards. The exact nature of identity / community / soul will vary from club to club (badge, name, shirt, location) but it's frightening that almost nothing can legally be done to prevent this. What's lacking are legal requirements for minimum fan ownership or English Herritage style rules on what owners are allowed to change without consent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pongo88 Posted April 23, 2016 Report Share Posted April 23, 2016 Ownership has always been a problem, but in the past it was less obvious. Most clubs had large regular crowds and the players were paid peanuts, but most of the profit went to the directors. Little was spent on improving the facilities for the supporters. There were exceptions of course - e g Harry Dolman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Hitler Posted April 23, 2016 Report Share Posted April 23, 2016 28 minutes ago, spudski said: Good points EH...The biggest problem to a certain extent are the fans. I would rather let my Club die and let it rise from the ashes again, than continue to support them financially by going and supporting, if it was owned by someone I didn't agree with. You can demonstrate all you like at the ground etc...but the only way you will effect a club, is by walking away with your feet and money. A proper "supporters' strike" would force any owner out. Zero gate or commercial receipts. Coventry's fans many protests and boycotts against their owners SISU (hedge fund) have so managed to bring teh club back to Coventry from Northampton. 3 minutes ago, TinMan's left peg said: I should say that it's not the on field debacle of Villa / Charlton etc. that bothers me. Relegation and being sh**e at football are part and parcel of the sport. In fact the rich owners of the top clubs who plan to exempt themselves from relegation or guarantee CL each season are much worse. It's the fact that owners can come in and strip a club of its identity at will without any safeguards. The exact nature of identity / community / soul will vary from club to club (badge, name, shirt, location) but it's frightening that almost nothing can legally be done to prevent this. What's lacking are legal requirements for minimum fan ownership or English Herritage style rules on what owners are allowed to change without consent. There is the (laughable) FA "fit and proper" test. The key thing when you boil it down is the ground; what else is there really that can be stripped from the club? If Bristol Rovers were still renting at Twerton they would be Conference regulars by now with dwindling crowds as their old fanbase aged. As it is they were very lucky (let's not rake over the details again) to be able to own a ground in Bristol again. What is worse for a club, a Vincent Tan who changes the shirt colour (and then changes it back) or an out-of-his-depth "passionate" owner who ends up losing the ground? The obvious safeguard for this is to: Separate the ground from the playing side into a stadium company so that the collpase of the footballing team becomes survivable. Go into admin, start again but you still have a ground to play in. We've done this separation, years ago under Scott Davidson IIRC. Pass legislation that no charges can be secured upon the ground, no debts may be accumulated within the stadium company, that no guarantees or performance bonds may be given by the stadium company, and that any losses (such as by charging a peppercorn rent) incurred by it have to be secured by a deposit into a sinikng fund by the holding company. Pass legislation that a stadium company may only sell its ground once it has entered into a binding and fully-funded agreement to purchase or develop another one Do all of that and then then football clubs stop being a honeypot for gamblers and asset-stripping spivs. This to apply at all levels, a lot of non-league clubs have very valuable grounds. Truro City was bought by a property developer who ran up huge debts upon the club but hived off the ground and sold it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maltshoveller Posted April 23, 2016 Report Share Posted April 23, 2016 1 hour ago, formerly known as ivan said: Right now I would say hashtags are footballs biggest problem, closely followed by owners and then Sky Cant agree with you about Sky They have put £millions into football Its the way the clubs have spent that money which is the problem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lanterne Rouge Posted April 23, 2016 Report Share Posted April 23, 2016 4 minutes ago, Maltshoveller said: Cant agree with you about Sky They have put £millions into football Its the way the clubs have spent that money which is the problem Agree with you toatally, it`s the way it`s been (mis)spent. If at least some filtered down the pyramid it wouldn`t be so bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
formerly known as ivan Posted April 23, 2016 Report Share Posted April 23, 2016 1 hour ago, Maltshoveller said: Cant agree with you about Sky They have put £millions into football Its the way the clubs have spent that money which is the problem Spent on the premier league which results in the gap becoming ever bigger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M_Porter Posted April 23, 2016 Report Share Posted April 23, 2016 First off what the hell is an OTIB poster doing reading the Guardian, its just not on the Beano is where its at my friend and what most on here seem to read although i prefer VIZ Anyway back to topic, I think football in this country is now beyond help. and it makes no difference where the investor comes from, just look at Blackpool or even closer to home the way the blue half was managed or rather mis managed. The TV rights as certainly not helped, and too outside investors the mind boggling amounts of money slushing around looks great, until they realise they need to pump all that plus more back into the team to keep them going in the right direction. As pointed out above we should count our self's VERY fortunate to have an owner that not only has deep pockets but is also a fan or our club, and very good in business, the stadium, and the fact we have lots of varied sports now under the Bristol Sport Umbrella means we will be self sustainable in the very near future. I would also suspect other clubs and/or owners are probably watching us very closely to see what the outcome of SL's business model will become. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TinMan's left peg Posted April 23, 2016 Author Report Share Posted April 23, 2016 I get all my current affairs news from Viz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
One Team In Keynsham Posted April 23, 2016 Report Share Posted April 23, 2016 58 minutes ago, TinMan's left peg said: I get all my current affairs news from Viz I watch The Daily Show for news and Fox News for comedy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bristolcitysweden Posted April 23, 2016 Report Share Posted April 23, 2016 Football probably would be better of with multinational firms screwing the balls of agents. To much emotion/my toy involved with wealthy private owners Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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