richwwtk Posted May 9, 2016 Report Share Posted May 9, 2016 12 minutes ago, Welcome To The Jungle said: It was a Saturday. City lost 1-2 to blackpool So my memory doesn't fail me. I thought I had somehow got it mixed up in my head with the Bradford Fire, because I'm 99% certain I was in Ashton Gate for that as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BS15_RED Posted May 9, 2016 Report Share Posted May 9, 2016 I'd like to think Duckenfield will spend the rest of his days behind bars, 96 counts of manslaughter and perverting the course of justice, I won't hold my breath though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Between heaven and hell Posted May 9, 2016 Report Share Posted May 9, 2016 I stood in the Leppings lane central enclosure in 1987 to watch the F.A cup semi final between Leeds and Coventry with a Leeds mate of mine. The game was made a lunchtime K.O on police advice because of the reputation of Leeds fans, my god I will never forget how packed we were in those pens. My mate had his eye burnt by some blokes fag who was trying to smoke even though it was virtually impossible to move your arms. Luckily because of the K.O time and the restriction this had on peoples alcohol intake nobody was killed but it was a very serious incident and along with the 1981 cup semi final has been mentioned in the aftermath of Hillsborough. I am a father of two teenage sons who come to the gate with me but I would never want them to be in that situation I was in in 1987. Hillsborough, the warning signs were there years before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charliesboots Posted May 9, 2016 Report Share Posted May 9, 2016 16 minutes ago, Between heaven and hell said: I stood in the Leppings lane central enclosure in 1987 to watch the F.A cup semi final between Leeds and Coventry with a Leeds mate of mine. The game was made a lunchtime K.O on police advice because of the reputation of Leeds fans, my god I will never forget how packed we were in those pens. My mate had his eye burnt by some blokes fag who was trying to smoke even though it was virtually impossible to move your arms. Luckily because of the K.O time and the restriction this had on peoples alcohol intake nobody ywas killed but it was a very serious incident and along with the 1981 cup semi final has been mentioned in the aftermath of Hillsborough. I am a father of two teenage sons who come to the gate with me but I would never want them to be in that situation I was in 1987. Hillsborough, the warning signs were there years before. I take the point about being packed in the pens but alcohol played NO part in the unlawful killing of 96 Liverpool supporters that day. Police negligence specifically Duckenfield caused the disaster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Between heaven and hell Posted May 9, 2016 Report Share Posted May 9, 2016 4 minutes ago, Charliesboots said: I take the point about being packed in the pens but alcohol played NO part in the unlawful killing of 96 Liverpool supporters that day. Police negligence specifically Duckenfield caused the disaster. I agree totally regarding 89. I am just glad that the situation I found myself in that day that the Leeds fans had not benefitted from another two hours drinking time. If they had the situation could have been very different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RumRed Posted May 9, 2016 Report Share Posted May 9, 2016 Not told me anything new but then I've lived in Liverpool a number of years in the early 90's. Very well done though, thankyou BBC. Utmost respect to the families, I hope they have now found some peace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exAtyeoMax Posted May 9, 2016 Report Share Posted May 9, 2016 I was strangely emotional walking towards Loftus Road on Saturday, thinking about those innocent people just going to watch a football match. How your life could change within minutes. I was nearly crushed at a U2 concert at Wembley stadium in 1987 and had to be pulled over the barrier at the front. I'm only 5'3" and after that experience I avoid those situations completely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exAtyeoMax Posted May 9, 2016 Report Share Posted May 9, 2016 There was that programme a couple of years ago when it was discovered that the police had doctored the statements. It was so interesting how a film's meaning can change with a different voice-over/explanation. Shocking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Welcome To The Jungle Posted May 9, 2016 Report Share Posted May 9, 2016 Brilliant documentary. Makes you wonder though if it never happened, would anything have changed? Would we be attending a potential death trap every single time we went to the football? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Hitler Posted May 10, 2016 Report Share Posted May 10, 2016 6 hours ago, Welcome To The Jungle said: Brilliant documentary. Makes you wonder though if it never happened, would anything have changed? Would we be attending a potential death trap every single time we went to the football? Nothing would have changed without a disaster happening and forcing change. Prior to watching it I didn't know how the idea that it was caused by drunk ticket less Liverpool fans forcing open the gate had gained currency. It was how it was reported at the time and, with Heysel as a recent and very shocking memory, entirely believable. This was a deliberate lie by Duckenfield, who had ordered the exit gate opened to prevent the crush outside rather than announcing a delayed kick off, and was told by him to Graham Kelly who had visited the control box while the incident was still happening. So the FA believed it, the news and the government believed it, I and pretty much everyone I knew believed it, and the coroner believed it to the extent that he had every single person who died tested for blood alcohol levels; this had never happened before. Duckenfield's order to open the gate was the mistake that caused the deaths. He was new to the job and didn't know how to handle football crowds, didn't know the stadium layout and the previous crush problems. He shouldn't have been in charge, if he had admitted his mistake then an inquiry may well have focused upon the people who appointed this inexperienced and out of his depth man to such a post. But with that lie he condemned the families and ultimately himself to twenty years of misery. I don't know when sentencing is but he should be locked up for both the accidental damage he caused by his error and the deliberate damage caused by his lie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin phantom Posted May 10, 2016 Admin Report Share Posted May 10, 2016 Watched it on iPlayer last night - have to agree with the previous comments that it was a REALLY powerful programme It was frightening how many times the families got knocked back with their appeals, it makes you wonder if that guy hadn't seen the TV programme with the policeman on whether this would actually have ever come about even now. Some of the actions by the police (and I'm blaming the very senior ones) were absolutely shocking and it's no wonder people have over the years lost faith in them Hopefully at least Duckenfield will stand trial for his actions of that day - surely a manslaughter charge can be brought against him? On a side note, I' convinced to this day that the reason football fans get bad press - and you hear people say "oh thats football fans" is from the lies that were reported back then, and many people for the past 27 years have believed what was said. I was drinking with someone last Sunday and they said it was caused by drunk, ticketless fans, people do genuinely believe what they were told Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richwwtk Posted May 10, 2016 Report Share Posted May 10, 2016 8 minutes ago, phantom said: On a side note, I' convinced to this day that the reason football fans get bad press - and you hear people say "oh thats football fans" is from the lies that were reported back then, and many people for the past 27 years have believed what was said. I was drinking with someone last Sunday and they said it was caused by drunk, ticketless fans, people do genuinely believe what they were told Quite possibly, although the reason that the lies were told and sounded plausible to many at the time comes from the sporadic behaviour of football fans for the two or three decades previously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Northski Posted May 10, 2016 Report Share Posted May 10, 2016 An outstanding piece of TV documentary making. Incredibly well put together, and as others have said, harrowing and difficult to watch at times. I thought I knew as much as anyone about the chronology of events leading to what happened and thereafter, but this program was a remarkable eye opener. We've all fed some truths, but also a load of misinformation and lies about what happened, but the program carefully dealt with all that. This program is not only a must watch for all football fans (it's very much after the watershed viewing) but should almost be compulsory viewing for pretty much anyone who cares about how a civil society should be run. Incredible that the South Yorkshire senior police got away with spinning us a complete pile of bullshit for nearly 30 years, even when surrounded by their fellow police, the so say openness of several public enquiries and our apparent free press. Astonishing viewing, nice work BBC. Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. John Dalberg-Acton b1836 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sixtyseconds Posted May 10, 2016 Report Share Posted May 10, 2016 "Quite possibly, although the reason that the lies were told and sounded plausible to many at the time comes from the sporadic behaviour of football fans for the two or three decades previously." And the Unions? And the Hippies at Stonehenge? And the infiltration of political activists which involved shagging Greenham common peace wimmin? Covers ups ... Abuses of power... All happened under some women called Margaret. Odd that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOTBLUE Posted May 10, 2016 Report Share Posted May 10, 2016 12 minutes ago, Lord Northski said: An outstanding piece of TV documentary making. Incredibly well put together, and as others have said, harrowing and difficult to watch at times. I thought I knew as much as anyone about the chronology of events leading to what happened and thereafter, but this program was a remarkable eye opener. We've all fed some truths, but also a load of misinformation and lies about what happened, but the program carefully dealt with all that. This program is not only a must watch for all football fans (it's very much after the watershed viewing) but should almost be compulsory viewing for pretty much anyone who cares about how a civil society should be run. Incredible that the South Yorkshire senior police got away with spinning us a complete pile of bullshit for nearly 30 years, even when surrounded by their fellow police, the so say openness of several public enquiries and our apparent free press. Astonishing viewing, nice work BBC. Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. John Dalberg-Acton b1836 That statement is,unfortunately,as true today as it was in 1836. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Northski Posted May 10, 2016 Report Share Posted May 10, 2016 1 minute ago, NOTBLUE said: That statement is,unfortunately,as true today as it was in 1836. Certainly appears that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneCity Posted May 10, 2016 Report Share Posted May 10, 2016 Excellent documentary, but a very difficult watch. I learned (and saw) many new things about the tragedy. What a god-awful experience for those involved, and for the families. What they went through is unimaginable. And I really felt for some of those police officers, and what they went through, which I'd never appreciated before. I'll never forget that day. I still vividly remember what I heard and what I felt on that saturday afternoon - I think first of all at half-time during a home defeat (to I think Blackpool). It was given out over the public address system that a 'serious incident' had taken place at Hillsborough involving Liverpool fans, and many deaths had been reported. Then they updated us at full-time, as we were all walking out. I'm not sure exactly what was said, because details were scarce, but it came across as if it was connected to hooliganism. I was walking out the back of the eastend and down the steps, thinking 'here we go again', the yob element is killing football! bearing in mind it wasn't that long after the Heysel stadium disaster. I can't believe it's taken 27 years for all the disgusting 'disinformation' to come to light, and for at last justice to be served. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kodjia 22 Posted May 10, 2016 Report Share Posted May 10, 2016 Just watched it with my uncle, who was at Hillsborough in the pen of to the left of the centre, he was explaining to me how he only went in the left hand pen as he went to Hillsborough the year before for another semi final and was in the middle pen and he knew what is was like, so went in the left pen. Knowing he was there I've always been interested to know the truth and about the inquests but some of what I found out that I didn't know was truly sickening. I am, as I hope everyone is pleased that justice has been finally done! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
42nite Posted May 11, 2016 Report Share Posted May 11, 2016 It was fairly easy to believe that the fans were to blame. The West Ham scenes reminded me what it was like back then, anybody around at the time will understand what I mean. A regular East End chant being... WE WANT A RIOT I'm glad the truth came out eventually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Portland Bill Posted May 11, 2016 Report Share Posted May 11, 2016 28 minutes ago, 42nite said: It was fairly easy to believe that the fans were to blame. The West Ham scenes reminded me what it was like back then, anybody around at the time will understand what I mean. A regular East End chant being... WE WANT A RIOT I'm glad the truth came out eventually. Not at all, anyone who watched the footage 'at the time' knew it wasn't caused by any kind of crowd trouble. Very simaler ( except for the deaths) happened in the 1981 semi final played at the same ground, This was known by football fans at the time as well. Any football fan also knew that fans did not ' urinate on police", didn't " pick the pockets of the dead" etc etc. The truth for people who know the media lie, was always there to be seen from day one. The Taylor report in 1990 told everyone that the fans weren't to blame, so why would anyone keep believing the other lies, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Welcome To The Jungle Posted May 11, 2016 Report Share Posted May 11, 2016 Never saw the Burnham speech before. But there is a moment when he is being chanted at that the penny drops. Brilliant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dollymarie Posted May 11, 2016 Report Share Posted May 11, 2016 Aiming to watch this tomorrow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bs3 Posted May 11, 2016 Report Share Posted May 11, 2016 8 hours ago, Portland Bill said: Not at all, anyone who watched the footage 'at the time' knew it wasn't caused by any kind of crowd trouble. Very simaler ( except for the deaths) happened in the 1981 semi final played at the same ground, This was known by football fans at the time as well. Any football fan also knew that fans did not ' urinate on police", didn't " pick the pockets of the dead" etc etc. The truth for people who know the media lie, was always there to be seen from day one. The Taylor report in 1990 told everyone that the fans weren't to blame, so why would anyone keep believing the other lies, If anyone belived the lie at the time about fans pissing on Police while giving the kiss of life beggars belief. For crying out loud BBC Match of the Day filmed the disaster, so where were these fan pissing on Police, it is unthinkable now that would happen as it would of been then. Also how did they know it was ticketless fans who entered the groung, how would they have known who had a ticket and who didn't when these gates were open. I was asking these questions to myself in the days what followed Hillsborough. truth was there in plain sight for 27 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lanterne Rouge Posted May 11, 2016 Report Share Posted May 11, 2016 43 minutes ago, bs3 said: If anyone belived the lie at the time about fans pissing on Police while giving the kiss of life beggars belief. For crying out loud BBC Match of the Day filmed the disaster, so where were these fan pissing on Police, it is unthinkable now that would happen as it would of been then. Also how did they know it was ticketless fans who entered the groung, how would they have known who had a ticket and who didn't when these gates were open. I was asking these questions to myself in the days what followed Hillsborough. truth was there in plain sight for 27 years. The thing is the masses wanted to believe it. At the time football fans were in the media almost every week being branded as scum and with all sorts of made up crap in articles that the great British public were only too happy to lap up and take as gospel. Every Monday seemed to have a photo of some lad with blood pouring down his face or a dart stuck in him that was used to illustrate what sort of sub humans went to football. Going to matches back then wasn`t always pretty, and could be downright terrifying at times, but it was nowhere near as bad as the press would have us believe and the bollocks that was reported after Hillsborough was just the latest in a long line of sensationalist reporting from papers who wanted to `out - shock` each other. People read, and consequently believed, what they were expecting to read. Thank God the truth has finally come out. RIP the 96. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Offside Posted May 11, 2016 Report Share Posted May 11, 2016 On Tuesday, May 10, 2016 at 13:25, OneCity said: Excellent documentary, but a very difficult watch. I learned (and saw) many new things about the tragedy. What a god-awful experience for those involved, and for the families. What they went through is unimaginable. And I really felt for some of those police officers, and what they went through, which I'd never appreciated before. I'll never forget that day. I still vividly remember what I heard and what I felt on that saturday afternoon - I think first of all at half-time during a home defeat (to I think Blackpool). It was given out over the public address system that a 'serious incident' had taken place at Hillsborough involving Liverpool fans, and many deaths had been reported. Then they updated us at full-time, as we were all walking out. I'm not sure exactly what was said, because details were scarce, but it came across as if it was connected to hooliganism. I was walking out the back of the eastend and down the steps, thinking 'here we go again', the yob element is killing football! bearing in mind it wasn't that long after the Heysel stadium disaster. I can't believe it's taken 27 years for all the disgusting 'disinformation' to come to light, and for at last justice to be served. This echoes my memory of how I first hearing about it. I remember leaving the Dolman Stand with my dad after the game with us both assuming there had been some sort of crowd trouble. It's appalling that this crowd trouble lie was concocted by elements in that police force whilst the tragic events were still unfolding; also that it took so long for the truth to be officially revealed and the innocent victims exonerated from any blame. Credit to the relatives of those victims who have fought so long for justice in what must have been a traumatic battle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exAtyeoMax Posted May 11, 2016 Report Share Posted May 11, 2016 Interesting that the Taylor Report exonerated the fans from any blame, but still the 'agenda' against them was allowed to fester and grow. After the incident we were shown edited highlights of the crowd. Even if you had seen it on BBC1 as it was unfolding, it is very easy for the media to manipulate what you think you have seen, and alter your perception of events in subsequent broadcasts/newspaper reports. We didn't have YouTube in those days, footage was only shown on news programmes, I don't remember seeing CCTV images until a couple of years ago, so I was only able to understand what had happened by what I was told, and specific images or footage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
42nite Posted May 11, 2016 Report Share Posted May 11, 2016 4 hours ago, Dollymarie said: Aiming to watch this tomorrow Prepare to be both angry and sad. Might be a good idea to have a couple of tissues handy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Cyril Posted May 12, 2016 Report Share Posted May 12, 2016 I don't know if I am more angry that the lies were told or more angry that they were believed at the time. Those who told the lies might not have got anyone suckered if it had been Forest fans in that end. Sadly, Liverpool fans were viewed sceptically at that time off the back of Heysel and a certain comedy TV character and this made it too easy for evil people to vilify them to deflect from their own criminal failings. So much for so many of us to learn from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dollymarie Posted May 12, 2016 Report Share Posted May 12, 2016 Just watched it. Harrowing, and just unbelievable that it happened, and the cover up was allowed to carry on for so long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exAtyeoMax Posted May 12, 2016 Report Share Posted May 12, 2016 52 minutes ago, Dollymarie said: Just watched it. Harrowing, and just unbelievable that it happened, and the cover up was allowed to carry on for so long. It's just another example of how easy that is…and how it will happen again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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