BS4 on Tour... Posted May 29, 2016 Report Share Posted May 29, 2016 31 years ago today. Still remember those scenes unfolding...shocking and scary. RIP to the 39 Juve fans who lost their lives on that dark day... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slartibartfast Posted May 29, 2016 Report Share Posted May 29, 2016 Hmmmm, no memorial, then ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 29, 2016 Report Share Posted May 29, 2016 A disaster that probably allowed the lies of Hillsborough to perpetuate so long (or at least, make them seem believable (there are still people outside, and strangely in, the football fraternity who believe the lies)) - it was a similar situation: a crush, and Liverpool fans involved. Going to a football match just shouldn't result in death. Dark days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZiderEyed Posted May 29, 2016 Report Share Posted May 29, 2016 40 minutes ago, slartibartfast said: Hmmmm, no memorial, then ? In fairness, it wasn't a major scandal involving politicians, newspapers, and the police force that was covered up for 27 years. Still, it should receive more attention than it does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AshtonGreat Posted May 29, 2016 Report Share Posted May 29, 2016 20 minutes ago, ZiderEyed said: In fairness, it wasn't a major scandal involving politicians, newspapers, and the police force that was covered up for 27 years. Still, it should receive more attention than it does. It's still been largely brushed under the carpet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Posted May 30, 2016 Report Share Posted May 30, 2016 7 hours ago, slartibartfast said: Hmmmm, no memorial, then ? There was in Turin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AshtonGreat Posted May 30, 2016 Report Share Posted May 30, 2016 To be fair, there was this... http://www.liverpoolfc.com/news/announcements/223457-lfc-marks-31st-anniversary-of-heysel-stadium-disaster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Rum Posted May 30, 2016 Report Share Posted May 30, 2016 Slightly off topic but there is a brilliant documentary on the BBC IPlayer at the moment about the Hillsborough disaster. I was 10 when it happened and I remember the news coverage really well but hadn't appreciated how deeply rooted the cover up actually was. The documentary is one of the most disturbing programmes I've ever seen on lots of levels but essential viewing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poland_exile Posted May 30, 2016 Report Share Posted May 30, 2016 8 hours ago, ZiderEyed said: In fairness, it wasn't a major scandal involving politicians, newspapers, and the police force that was covered up for 27 years. Still, it should receive more attention than it does. to be truthful, neither was it cut-and-dried: why were the highly-trained police units not called up for this game, why was sector z guarded by a police unit that was over-the-hill, why did the police run during the first charge, why play the game after the disaster unfolded, how did so many Liverpool/Juve fans get tickets for the neutral section, why choose a ground that was falling apart, and how on earth did only a handful of Liverpool fans serve sentences of no more than 18 months. Everything about Heysel was rotten to the core, and equally shocking has been how Juventus treated their own fans in its wake. A lot of questions remain unanswered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poland_exile Posted May 30, 2016 Report Share Posted May 30, 2016 2 hours ago, AshtonGreat said: To be fair, there was this... http://www.liverpoolfc.com/news/announcements/223457-lfc-marks-31st-anniversary-of-heysel-stadium-disaster a word to say sorry would have been a nice touch, but then again, it's never their fault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobBobSuperBob Posted May 30, 2016 Report Share Posted May 30, 2016 4 hours ago, Red Rum said: Slightly off topic but there is a brilliant documentary on the BBC IPlayer at the moment about the Hillsborough disaster. I was 10 when it happened and I remember the news coverage really well but hadn't appreciated how deeply rooted the cover up actually was. The documentary is one of the most disturbing programmes I've ever seen on lots of levels but essential viewing. Also Watch the events at Heysel and as it was the most significant tragedy to eminate from behaviour in 70s and 80s and will simply explain why there were cages and fences at grounds like Hillsborough in 89 which some I've read on here find a simply ridiculous idea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Portland Bill Posted May 30, 2016 Report Share Posted May 30, 2016 Another case of a delabitated ground unfit for purpose being used for a major final. Yes, some Liverpool fans ran at some Italian fans, but, because the stadium was a basket case, a wall collapsed. It was common to have trouble on the terraces in those days, a few punches and it normally died down, but on this occasion it ended in tragedy, simply due to a wall which wasn't in a fit state. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BS4 on Tour... Posted May 30, 2016 Author Report Share Posted May 30, 2016 3 minutes ago, Portland Bill said: Another case of a delabitated ground unfit for purpose being used for a major final. Yes, some Liverpool fans ran at some Italian fans, but, because the stadium was a basket case, a wall collapsed. It was common to have trouble on the terraces in those days, a few punches and it normally died down, but on this occasion it ended in tragedy, simply due to a wall which wasn't in a fit state. Looking at the footage though, it's hard to imagine any wall being able to withstand the sheer pressure put on it by that many people squeezing up against it. That's what made it collapse, because the terrified people being charged at turned and ran into a corner. That would happen today if enough people were involved. I agree the stadium didn't seem fit for purpose though in lots of other ways, including segregation... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esmond Million's Bung Posted May 30, 2016 Report Share Posted May 30, 2016 5 minutes ago, Portland Bill said: Another case of a delabitated ground unfit for purpose being used for a major final. Yes, some Liverpool fans ran at some Italian fans, but, because the stadium was a basket case, a wall collapsed. It was common to have trouble on the terraces in those days, a few punches and it normally died down, but on this occasion it ended in tragedy, simply due to a wall which wasn't in a fit state. The excuses are endless Bill, 'I didn't think I had drunk that much, when I got behind the wheel', 'I didn't think that one punch could could end in the death of that man', 'I thought my son was safe hanging over the wall looking at the gorilla', 'if I had known that the wall would collapse, I wouldn't have run at the Juventus fans'. Everything that you say about the authorities and it's choice of venue is correct and judging by the choice of this years final involving Liverpool nothing whatsoever has been learned. But yet again there was serious loss of life at football match FFS, people make choices and sometimes those people have to live with those choices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poland_exile Posted May 30, 2016 Report Share Posted May 30, 2016 1 hour ago, Portland Bill said: Another case of a delabitated ground unfit for purpose being used for a major final. Yes, some Liverpool fans ran at some Italian fans, but, because the stadium was a basket case, a wall collapsed. It was common to have trouble on the terraces in those days, a few punches and it normally died down, but on this occasion it ended in tragedy, simply due to a wall which wasn't in a fit state. questions have to be asked about why the ground was chosen - I suspect a backhander in there and a few people lining their pockets on that one. There were several far superior, far safer grounds that could have held the final, and instead they chose a ground that hadn't been properly or thoroughly updated since the 20s. Concerns had been raised by several people, including many officials. Not for the first time, a venue was chosen for quite murky reasons... Rgds the actual trouble. I agree to an extent that there was an element of misfortune. I think there are a few people on here, who had they been Liverpool fans, would have joined in the charge and been mortified at the subsequent results: I'm certain no-one charging would have in the right minds wanted what happened next to occur. However, and this is a big however, when Liverpool fans bleat about justice for Hillsborough, they would do well to remember that justice was never served in the case of Heysel. Of 14 convictions, 7 were suspended and 7 resulted in people serving a max of 18 months. There has been no accountability, no massive inquest, no proper convictions - I can understand how this rankles, and Liverpool really should hold their hands up a little on this if they gun for sympathy with regards to Hillsborough. Both awful tragedies, but in the case of Heysel they have largely dodged a bullet. The punishment was a collective one directed at English football in general. Liverpool and their fans escaped having the book thrown at them and would do well to remember that when playing the victim card with such frequency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LegionOfBrad Posted May 30, 2016 Report Share Posted May 30, 2016 2 hours ago, BS4 on Tour... said: Looking at the footage though, it's hard to imagine any wall being able to withstand the sheer pressure put on it by that many people squeezing up against it. That's what made it collapse, because the terrified people being charged at turned and ran into a corner. That would happen today if enough people were involved. I agree the stadium didn't seem fit for purpose though in lots of other ways, including segregation... They still haven't learned all the lessons. They had no segregation in one part of the stadium in this years UEFA cup final. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LegionOfBrad Posted May 30, 2016 Report Share Posted May 30, 2016 39 minutes ago, poland_exile said: questions have to be asked about why the ground was chosen - I suspect a backhander in there and a few people lining their pockets on that one. There were several far superior, far safer grounds that could have held the final, and instead they chose a ground that hadn't been properly or thoroughly updated since the 20s. Concerns had been raised by several people, including many officials. Not for the first time, a venue was chosen for quite murky reasons... Rgds the actual trouble. I agree to an extent that there was an element of misfortune. I think there are a few people on here, who had they been Liverpool fans, would have joined in the charge and been mortified at the subsequent results: I'm certain no-one charging would have in the right minds wanted what happened next to occur. However, and this is a big however, when Liverpool fans bleat about justice for Hillsborough, they would do well to remember that justice was never served in the case of Heysel. Of 14 convictions, 7 were suspended and 7 resulted in people serving a max of 18 months. There has been no accountability, no massive inquest, no proper convictions - I can understand how this rankles, and Liverpool really should hold their hands up a little on this if they gun for sympathy with regards to Hillsborough. Both awful tragedies, but in the case of Heysel they have largely dodged a bullet. The punishment was a collective one directed at English football in general. Liverpool and their fans escaped having the book thrown at them and would do well to remember that when playing the victim card with such frequency. Don't get this at all. Yes their fans were in the wrong for what happened at Heysel. But this should never have excluded 96 families (who likely had absolutely nothing to do with that game in Belgium) from playing the "Victim Card" over what happened at Hillsborough. The whole point of the recent inquests is that they were not playing the Victim card. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
North London Red Posted May 30, 2016 Report Share Posted May 30, 2016 2 hours ago, Portland Bill said: Another case of a delabitated ground unfit for purpose being used for a major final. Yes, some Liverpool fans ran at some Italian fans, but, because the stadium was a basket case, a wall collapsed. It was common to have trouble on the terraces in those days, a few punches and it normally died down, but on this occasion it ended in tragedy, simply due to a wall which wasn't in a fit state. I watched a documentary about Heysel a few years ago and it was said that the fans who died weren't killed by the wall collapsing - they had already been suffocated or crushed. The collapse of the wall actually stopped more people from dying than the 39 who tragically did. The same is said on the Heysel disaster Wikipedia page. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aizoon Posted May 30, 2016 Report Share Posted May 30, 2016 Also the day I split up with my first wife Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aizoon Posted May 30, 2016 Report Share Posted May 30, 2016 38 minutes ago, LegionOfBrad said: Don't get this at all. Yes their fans were in the wrong for what happened at Heysel. But this should never have excluded 96 families (who likely had absolutely nothing to do with that game in Belgium) from playing the "Victim Card" over what happened at Hillsborough. The whole point of the recent inquests is that they were not playing the Victim card. Some people still go along with the Thatcher / SYP lies. I wonder why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poland_exile Posted May 30, 2016 Report Share Posted May 30, 2016 2 hours ago, LegionOfBrad said: Don't get this at all. Yes their fans were in the wrong for what happened at Heysel. But this should never have excluded 96 families (who likely had absolutely nothing to do with that game in Belgium) from playing the "Victim Card" over what happened at Hillsborough. The whole point of the recent inquests is that they were not playing the Victim card. Firstly, I am delighted with the verdict of the recent inquest. I do not mean to sully the name of those who died or were effected directly by Hillsborough, and i do need to clarify that. I hope that those responsible for Hillsborough are held to account now. But... those responsible for Heysel should also be. An Italian life is worth no less than a Scouser life. There has been a massive public campaign (and deservedly so) to unravel what happened at Hillsborough. There has never been such with regards to Heysel. There has been, though, much brushing off of Heysel as being 'an accident in waiting', 'it wouldn't have happened if the stadium wasn't falling apart', etc., etc. Even the VERY recent admissions by Liverpool that they were in the wrong is still tainted by a spin campaign that somehow, it wasn't really all their fault. For instance, the convicted but now born-again Christian, Terry Wilson. Hearing the stories of him boasting on the ferry back doesn't quite compute with the argument he now puts forward about events of that day. And still, on Merseyside, the story persists that Chelsea were there, that the NF were there, even though this has been widely discredited by no other than the Liverpool official who first started these rumours. Both Hillsborough and Heysel are extremely complex tragedies. My point is, one of them has had truth prevail, albeit eventually. The other one, hasn't. The sub-plots going that went on have come closest to being revealed by the very graphic German documentary from 1999 (that's easily found on YouTube and contains seriously graphic images). The BBC doc, Requiem For a Cup Final verged on ridiculous in the way it tried to shift blame. As for Aizoon, just because someone doesn't agree with you, please don't resort to waving a political flag and making me something I'm not just to suit your own agenda. I respect you as a poster, and am disappointed that you bat me off with an easy political tag. Rgds my comments about the Victim Card - this wasn't a specific reference to Hillsborough. i expressed myself incorrectly, for that I apologize. I will repeat, I am delighted by the inquest verdict and hope that those who are still alive that were responsible get considerably more than the non-sentences that were delivered in light of Heysel. My reference to Victims is more a reflection of every other event that makes the people of Liverpool shake their needles like a hedgehog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poland_exile Posted May 30, 2016 Report Share Posted May 30, 2016 to continue, and this is a subject I feel rather strongly about, those who don't know much about Heysel would do well to watch this German documentary. I warn you, it is extremely graphic. It does show the dead. It does show the grieving. I can completely understand why there is a festering resentment that Liverpool have finally received their long overdue justice, but that Juventus have not. Watch this Aizoon. I hope Duckenfield & Co. spend the rest of their lives having a very hard time. But I also hope that those responsible for Heysel do as well. There are some very guilty consciences on Merseyside, and rightly so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shelts Posted May 30, 2016 Report Share Posted May 30, 2016 1 hour ago, poland_exile said: Firstly, I am delighted with the verdict of the recent inquest. I do not mean to sully the name of those who died or were effected directly by Hillsborough, and i do need to clarify that. I hope that those responsible for Hillsborough are held to account now. But... those responsible for Heysel should also be. An Italian life is worth no less than a Scouser life. There has been a massive public campaign (and deservedly so) to unravel what happened at Hillsborough. There has never been such with regards to Heysel. There has been, though, much brushing off of Heysel as being 'an accident in waiting', 'it wouldn't have happened if the stadium wasn't falling apart', etc., etc. Even the VERY recent admissions by Liverpool that they were in the wrong is still tainted by a spin campaign that somehow, it wasn't really all their fault. For instance, the convicted but now born-again Christian, Terry Wilson. Hearing the stories of him boasting on the ferry back doesn't quite compute with the argument he now puts forward about events of that day. And still, on Merseyside, the story persists that Chelsea were there, that the NF were there, even though this has been widely discredited by no other than the Liverpool official who first started these rumours. Both Hillsborough and Heysel are extremely complex tragedies. My point is, one of them has had truth prevail, albeit eventually. The other one, hasn't. The sub-plots going that went on have come closest to being revealed by the very graphic German documentary from 1999 (that's easily found on YouTube and contains seriously graphic images). The BBC doc, Requiem For a Cup Final verged on ridiculous in the way it tried to shift blame. As for Aizoon, just because someone doesn't agree with you, please don't resort to waving a political flag and making me something I'm not just to suit your own agenda. I respect you as a poster, and am disappointed that you bat me off with an easy political tag. Rgds my comments about the Victim Card - this wasn't a specific reference to Hillsborough. i expressed myself incorrectly, for that I apologize. I will repeat, I am delighted by the inquest verdict and hope that those who are still alive that were responsible get considerably more than the non-sentences that were delivered in light of Heysel. My reference to Victims is more a reflection of every other event that makes the people of Liverpool shake their needles like a hedgehog. I remember watching the game and fans from other English teams were in attendance including Chelsea . Not saying they were involved in the trouble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveybadger Posted May 30, 2016 Report Share Posted May 30, 2016 9 hours ago, BobBobSuperBob said: Also Watch the events at Heysel and as it was the most significant tragedy to eminate from behaviour in 70s and 80s and will simply explain why there were cages and fences at grounds like Hillsborough in 89 which some I've read on here find a simply ridiculous idea The Hillsborough documentary (which i only watched today)shows how the deaths that occured in 89 could have easily occurred in the Spurs v Wolves cup semi in 81. Thankfully somebody opened the pens on that occasion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Portland Bill Posted May 30, 2016 Report Share Posted May 30, 2016 8 hours ago, Esmond Million's Bung said: The excuses are endless Bill, 'I didn't think I had drunk that much, when I got behind the wheel', 'I didn't think that one punch could could end in the death of that man', 'I thought my son was safe hanging over the wall looking at the gorilla', 'if I had known that the wall would collapse, I wouldn't have run at the Juventus fans'. Everything that you say about the authorities and it's choice of venue is correct and judging by the choice of this years final involving Liverpool nothing whatsoever has been learned. But yet again there was serious loss of life at football match FFS, people make choices and sometimes those people have to live with those choices. No excuses from me E's, it was a common occurrence back then, you know this as well as I do. It happened weekly all over this country, no where do I try and defend the fans who helped cause the deaths, unfortunately it resulted in the worst scenario possible. It was a tragedy/is a tragedy, I'm not making anything up, just saying what happened to anyone who didn't know already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Portland Bill Posted May 30, 2016 Report Share Posted May 30, 2016 3 hours ago, poland_exile said: to continue, and this is a subject I feel rather strongly about, those who don't know much about Heysel would do well to watch this German documentary. I warn you, it is extremely graphic. It does show the dead. It does show the grieving. I can completely understand why there is a festering resentment that Liverpool have finally received their long overdue justice, but that Juventus have not. Watch this Aizoon. I hope Duckenfield & Co. spend the rest of their lives having a very hard time. But I also hope that those responsible for Heysel do as well. There are some very guilty consciences on Merseyside, and rightly so. Interestingly the police officer in charge of Heysel that day was ( like Duckensfield) doing this for the very first time in his career. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miah Dennehy Posted May 30, 2016 Report Share Posted May 30, 2016 2 hours ago, shelts said: I remember watching the game and fans from other English teams were in attendance including Chelsea . Not saying they were involved in the trouble. It was quite commonplace for fans of other teams to travel to European games back then, I know of (and I suspect others on here do as well) of at least two City who were there, one of whom was arrested and charged. There is no defending what happened, and while the stadium may have been falling apart, the primary cause was people intent on causing trouble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cunnyfunt Posted May 31, 2016 Report Share Posted May 31, 2016 Bloomin Scousers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
... Posted May 31, 2016 Report Share Posted May 31, 2016 6 hours ago, Cunnyfunt said: Bloomin Scousers. How did you get your name passsed the moderators? Uncle TFR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cunnyfunt Posted May 31, 2016 Report Share Posted May 31, 2016 3 hours ago, Taxi for Rennie said: How did you get your name passsed the moderators? Uncle TFR A touch of guile and craft. Amazing what swapping two letters can do! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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