Celtic fans raise cash for Palestinian charities

[Red Skin]

57 minutes ago, Jack Dawe said:

Interesting points, not something I was aware of. I tend to see such displays as much "Look at us! Look what we're doing!" and "No one's doing what we're doing!" and about distancing themselves from Rangers and Brits and bulldogs and right-wing thinking, as anything else. Would they be doing this without all the photos they knew would be taken, without all the ensuing fuss and attention - isn't it just a clever group selfie?

There is an element of truth in this.  Green Brigade do like to consider themselves left wing and part of a wider ultra community.  (Yes, Celtic fans have been racist towards Walters playing for Rangers and amongst other things so maybe the actions of some Celtic fans  haven't always matched their aspirations).

To be fair they have organised things like food bank collections and the club is active vocal in support for refugees in general - not a popular sentiment.  Not things that have necessarily attracted the same attention as demonstrating in support of Palestine/Palestinians, a very politicised issue.

Celtic Food Banks

Celtic and Bayern support for refugees

 

[Marina's Rolls Royce]

10 minutes ago, Shtanley said:

Free Palestine, disgraceful from UEFA to deem the Palestinian flag an offensive banner.

Article 16 (2) Uefa Disciplinary Code:

1. e)  the use of gestures, words, objects or any other means to transmit any message that is not fit for a sports event, particularly messages that are of a political, ideological, religious, offensive or provocative nature; 

 

I don't think UEFA said the flag was offensive but it certainly qualifies as a political message under the above Article. I'm sure there are those at UEFA who share the sentiment and those who don't- either way Celtic Park shouldn't be the proving ground - or any other stadia.

[BS4 on Tour...]

1 hour ago, harrys said:

More racist graffiti sprayed on Catholic schools again over the weekend in Glasgow, strange none of our adoring Rangers fans on this forum haven't mentioned it yet !!!

So all graffiti in Glasgow is the work of Rangers fans???!

[Shtanley]

2 minutes ago, Marina's Rolls Royce said:

Article 16 (2) Uefa Disciplinary Code:

1. e)  the use of gestures, words, objects or any other means to transmit any message that is not fit for a sports event, particularly messages that are of a political, ideological, religious, offensive or provocative nature; 

 

I don't think UEFA said the flag was offensive but it certainly qualifies as a political message under the above Article. I'm sure there are those at UEFA who share the sentiment and those who don't- either way Celtic Park shouldn't be the proving ground - or any other stadia.

I think people who afraid of politics and sport mixing are ridiculous to be honest. “Sport has the power to change the world. It has the power to inspire. It has the power to unite people in a way that little else does. It speaks to youth in a language they understand. Sport can create hope where once there was only despair", I went to see a talk byTommie Smith, one of the 200m runners who did the black power salute in 1968, and their tales of how many people it directly inspired makes me feel that politics absolutely has a place in sport. It has a place almost anywhere.

[Marina's Rolls Royce]

Completely agree with the belief that sport has the power to inspire.

The fact that politics has the power to inspire people to do some pretty bad stuff makes me believe that mixing the two at a football match is asking for trouble- a sentiment shared by most if not all sporting institutions. Where do you draw the line? What is an acceptable political protest at a match? How about a pitch invasion to protest about the random bombings by Russia in Syria for their own political advancement?

I go to a football match to watch football not to make a political point and I really don't feel this makes me "ridiculous". As many on here can't even agree on the timing of leaving their seat in order to have a pint at half time - I really can't see anyone agreeing on a chosen political subject to air at BS3 during the match.

[chipdawg]

Football fans with opinion on the complex political situation in the Middle East incapable of believing that different set of football fans have an opinion on the complex political situation in the Middle East 

[Shtanley]

29 minutes ago, Marina's Rolls Royce said:

Completely agree with the belief that sport has the power to inspire.

The fact that politics has the power to inspire people to do some pretty bad stuff makes me believe that mixing the two at a football match is asking for trouble- a sentiment shared by most if not all sporting institutions. Where do you draw the line? What is an acceptable political protest at a match? How about a pitch invasion to protest about the random bombings by Russia in Syria for their own political advancement?

I go to a football match to watch football not to make a political point and I really don't feel this makes me "ridiculous". As many on here can't even agree on the timing of leaving their seat in order to have a pint at half time - I really can't see anyone agreeing on a chosen political subject to air at BS3 during the match.

Well of course I go to a football match to watch football, but I'm saying those who fear the mixture of sport and politics are ridiculous. 

I don't have a problem with any of the Blackpool protests last year in fact I think most people found the pitch invasions hilarious. Where do you draw the line? Well that's the million dollar question in any walk of life, you only know until something happens that's past the hypothetical line. 

[TV Tom]

1 hour ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

So all graffiti in Glasgow is the work of Rangers fans???!

What a silly comment

[Marina's Rolls Royce]

36 minutes ago, Shtanley said:

Well of course I go to a football match to watch football, but I'm saying those who fear the mixture of sport and politics are ridiculous. 

I don't have a problem with any of the Blackpool protests last year in fact I think most people found the pitch invasions hilarious. Where do you draw the line? Well that's the million dollar question in any walk of life, you only know until something happens that's past the hypothetical line. 

Well, the next time I see Jeremy Corbyn putting on the shirt and playing football- it's over for me.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

48 minutes ago, Shtanley said:

Well of course I go to a football match to watch football, but I'm saying those who fear the mixture of sport and politics are ridiculous. 

I don't have a problem with any of the Blackpool protests last year in fact I think most people found the pitch invasions hilarious. Where do you draw the line? Well that's the million dollar question in any walk of life, you only know until something happens that's past the hypothetical line. 

Bearing in mind that many of the worlds greatest and most violent football rivalries are built on ethnic, religious or political bigotry and that is ridiculous.

[SecretSam]

3 hours ago, Marina's Rolls Royce said:

But it certainly helps

Anti-semitism is being anti-anything Jewish.  Not liking the state of Israel's policies is something different; if someone had said they didn't like (say) the politics of the Irish government, you wouldn't call them anti-Catholic.

[NW2 Red]

Perhaps a few facts would help.

1. Israel is the only truly democratic state in the Middle East and our ally;

2. There is no such place as Palestine;

3. Israel is, like any state, entitled to defend itself against aggression from terrorists (sound familiar?) who include Hammas and their ilk; That is against the background of successive attempts by the arab countries to destroy the state of Israel;

4. The treatment of Palestinians within the arab countries around Israel is pretty shocking - why are they still iving in refugee camps after 70 years?? because the other Arab countries dont want them to settle there.

5. What does anti - Zionism mean? Zionism is the belief in the establishment of the state of Israel -  Anti-Zionists and simply antisemites by another  name;

6. Ask yourself why people focus on Israel's alleged treatment of the Palestinians? There are many oppressive dictatorships in the world who make no attempt to even pretend to follow civilised norms, who consistently mistreat and murder their own populations, who are ruled by vicious tyrants. Why are the Israelis the bug bear of so many on the left? I have never heard a coherent answer to that question. No wonder then that many Jews see it as a cover for antisemitism (as in Corbyn's Labour Party).

I wonder how many Celtic fans understand the issues or have been to Israel? I would guess not many.

[Roger Red Hat]

5 hours ago, Marina's Rolls Royce said:

But it certainly helps

Certainly helps, what?

[Roger Red Hat]

1 hour ago, NW2 Red said:

Perhaps a few facts would help.

1. Israel is the only truly democratic state in the Middle East and our ally;

2. There is no such place as Palestine;

3. Israel is, like any state, entitled to defend itself against aggression from terrorists (sound familiar?) who include Hammas and their ilk; That is against the background of successive attempts by the arab countries to destroy the state of Israel;

4. The treatment of Palestinians within the arab countries around Israel is pretty shocking - why are they still iving in refugee camps after 70 years?? because the other Arab countries dont want them to settle there.

5. What does anti - Zionism mean? Zionism is the belief in the establishment of the state of Israel -  Anti-Zionists and simply antisemites by another  name;

6. Ask yourself why people focus on Israel's alleged treatment of the Palestinians? There are many oppressive dictatorships in the world who make no attempt to even pretend to follow civilised norms, who consistently mistreat and murder their own populations, who are ruled by vicious tyrants. Why are the Israelis the bug bear of so many on the left? I have never heard a coherent answer to that question. No wonder then that many Jews see it as a cover for antisemitism (as in Corbyn's Labour Party).

I wonder how many Celtic fans understand the issues or have been to Israel? I would guess not many.

The Israeli state is the same as  the apartheid South African state. Actually it's worse, NW2 (1st post).

[Cowshed]

I will applaud when this British hating good Friday agreement ignoring pro terrorist group raise money for an organisation like the Royal Mencap society.

[SARJ]

2 hours ago, NW2 Red said:

Perhaps a few facts would help.

1. Israel is the only truly democratic state in the Middle East and our ally;

2. There is no such place as Palestine;

3. Israel is, like any state, entitled to defend itself against aggression from terrorists (sound familiar?) who include Hammas and their ilk; That is against the background of successive attempts by the arab countries to destroy the state of Israel;

4. The treatment of Palestinians within the arab countries around Israel is pretty shocking - why are they still iving in refugee camps after 70 years?? because the other Arab countries dont want them to settle there.

5. What does anti - Zionism mean? Zionism is the belief in the establishment of the state of Israel -  Anti-Zionists and simply antisemites by another  name;

6. Ask yourself why people focus on Israel's alleged treatment of the Palestinians? There are many oppressive dictatorships in the world who make no attempt to even pretend to follow civilised norms, who consistently mistreat and murder their own populations, who are ruled by vicious tyrants. Why are the Israelis the bug bear of so many on the left? I have never heard a coherent answer to that question. No wonder then that many Jews see it as a cover for antisemitism (as in Corbyn's Labour Party).

I wonder how many Celtic fans understand the issues or have been to Israel? I would guess not many.

Well said.

[SARJ]

Without getting into the history of Israel and Palestine, as it’s an argument nobody will ever win (and most people haven’t read books or actually studied the issue), let’s stick to the original post and the question/point raised: Celtic, Palestine flags and charity money.

 

First of all, Celtic fans, green brigade especially, are some of the most confused people I’ve ever met (yes I’ve met them in the flesh). So you have a British club singing Irish songs waving Palestinian flags. Most supporters have little or no knowledge of the complex Middle East situation and are just joining the bandwagon of their pro-Republican fan group masters (the last conversation I had with a Green Brigade member went along the lines of: Scotland will become independent and be as wealthy/successful as the USA).

 

I also find it ironic that a supposedly Catholic club are raising money for an area linked with various forms of hard-line Islamic extremism in which a number of the people they are supporting would love nothing better than to decapitate followers of the Christian faith. Again: very confused.

 

To the issue in hand: there is nothing wrong with waving the flag of any nation in a football stadium in my opinion. Yet when you deliberately wave it to antagonise another set of fans or players, that’s where it’s wrong i.e. I doubt Celtic have many Palestinian supporters of fans from the Gaza strip, so come on people, we all know what the flag display was about: annoying the Jews. For that I’m 100% with UEFA on their ruling. If, it transpires, Celtic do actually have 20k Palestinian flags inside their stadium on a weekly basis, who wave Palestine flags as a homage to their homeland, I’ll happily eat humble pie, but let’s be honest, there isn’t.

 

As for the charity money, you can raise money for any charity you like, and I commend you. I just think it’s sad that Celtic would sooner help people miles away than causes closer to home, such as the poor of Glasgow, and that they use charity as a way to make their flag show look a bit more genuine (you only need to know a few Celtic fans or read the various Celtic forums to know only a minority care about Palestine – this was nothing more than an anti-Semitic display judging by things I’ve heard).

 

I’m sure I’ll get shot down for the above, but I’m a sensible individual and I’m sure a majority of forum users are too. If you sit there and honestly think 5000 plus Celtic fans genuinely care about the well-being of poor Gaza strip Palestinians and that’s what this display is about, then you’re a fool. You only have to read the pro-IRA sectarian comments of Celtic Green Brigade twitter fans to know their true motives.

[Red Skin]

7 hours ago, Jack Dawe said:

Interesting points, not something I was aware of. I tend to see such displays as much "Look at us! Look what we're doing!" and "No one's doing what we're doing!" and about distancing themselves from Rangers and Brits and bulldogs and right-wing thinking, as anything else. Would they be doing this without all the photos they knew would be taken, without all the ensuing fuss and attention - isn't it just a clever group selfie?

There is an element of truth in this.  Green Brigade do like to consider themselves left wing and part of a wider ultra community.  (Yes, Celtic fans have been racist towards Walters playing for Rangers and amongst other things so maybe the actions of some Celtic fans  haven't always matched their aspirations).

To be fair they have organised things like food bank collections and the club is active vocal in support for refugees in general - not a popular sentiment.  Not things that have necessarily attracted the same attention as demonstrating in support of Palestine/Palestinians, a very politicised issue.

Celtic Food Banks

Celtic and Bayern support for refugees

 

[Marina's Rolls Royce]

2 hours ago, Roger Red Hat said:

Certainly helps, what?

The fact that naziism was a German invention helps feed dislike/distrust/hatred of Germans in the modern era. Anti Zionism also helps feed anti semitism- neither connection is ring fenced.

As for Israel being worse than the SA apartheid government - well I've travelled in both countries  (SA during apartheid) and believe you to be very wrong. And there's the thing Roger- we could debate that for hours in person and may well find ourselves in heated disagreement.

And for those reasons at the very least- Football matches are no places for political protest. Anyway, I've made my points on here whether you or others agree or not and I'm done with this thread.

My focus is firmly on our club getting through to the next round of the Cup without injury or political dispute and the only occupation of land I'm hoping for is the Scunny penalty area.

 

 

[Renaissance Williams]

7 hours ago, Red Army Faction said:

Apologies.  To be honest I didn't really understand your last point and took the worst interpretation.  Expect the worst on here, but should have given you the benefit of doubt. 

No problem - my point was not made with the greatest eloquence! 

[cityexile]

5 hours ago, NW2 Red said:

Perhaps a few facts would help.

1. Israel is the only truly democratic state in the Middle East and our ally;

2. There is no such place as Palestine;

3. Israel is, like any state, entitled to defend itself against aggression from terrorists (sound familiar?) who include Hammas and their ilk; That is against the background of successive attempts by the arab countries to destroy the state of Israel;

4. The treatment of Palestinians within the arab countries around Israel is pretty shocking - why are they still iving in refugee camps after 70 years?? because the other Arab countries dont want them to settle there.

5. What does anti - Zionism mean? Zionism is the belief in the establishment of the state of Israel -  Anti-Zionists and simply antisemites by another  name;

6. Ask yourself why people focus on Israel's alleged treatment of the Palestinians? There are many oppressive dictatorships in the world who make no attempt to even pretend to follow civilised norms, who consistently mistreat and murder their own populations, who are ruled by vicious tyrants. Why are the Israelis the bug bear of so many on the left? I have never heard a coherent answer to that question. No wonder then that many Jews see it as a cover for antisemitism (as in Corbyn's Labour Party).

I wonder how many Celtic fans understand the issues or have been to Israel? I would guess not many.

Tosh. Facts? Posts that start like that usually are full of anything but, and this is a prime example.

Have no arguments with some of your comments, but 5) particularly is wrong as a matter of fact. As it happens I am neither, but this just falls in to the 'anyone who criticises the state policy of Israel is really anti-Semitic'. 

Its akin to 'all Britexers are racists'.

The rest of your post is just noise and repeating a mantra that is offensive as it is incorrect.

My own view is that Israel has the right to exist and defend itself. It has no right to treat refugees in a way that is akin to apartheid.

Edit, on reflection if this is worth a debate, I will see you outside - in the non-football thread.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

21 hours ago, PunkRockDad said:

Pray for Palestine - How brilliant is this!!

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/aug/22/celtic-fans-raise-45000-for-palestinian-charities-after-flag-protest

 

Better than collecting for the IRA I suppose.

 

[BS4 on Tour...]

9 minutes ago, Esmond Million's Bung said:

Better than collecting for the IRA I suppose.

 

And continually disrupting minute silences on Remembrance Day with IRA chants and holding up that 'No bloodstained poppies on our hoops' banner and chanting vile abuse at British troops at the Emirates Stadium....etc etc etc

[Red Skin]

10 hours ago, Jack Dawe said:

 

Posted to get rid of a quote!!! Grr!!!

 

[Red Skin]

22 minutes ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

And continually disrupting minute silences on Remembrance Day with IRA chants and holding up that 'No bloodstained poppies on our hoops' banner and chanting vile abuse at British troops at the Emirates Stadium....etc etc etc

Anything to say on this topic?  

The failure of some people to accept that Britain colonial past isn't celebrated by the people (and their descendants) they enslaved is a masterclass delusional thinking.  Only matched by a over developed sensitivity to give a **** about the opinions of someone you don't like.

 

 

[BS4 on Tour...]

3 minutes ago, Red Army Faction said:

The failure of some people to accept that Britain colonial past isn't celebrated by the people (and their descendants) they enslaved....

Massive difference between 'not celebrating' and vile abuse, deliberate disruption and sponsoring terrorism. We'll have to agree to differ. Respect your views but it's a very emotive subject.

[Welcome To The Jungle]

Anyone else watching Celtic tonight? Atmosphere is electric. Israel is another country that shows up British atmospheres for what they are, complete crap. 

[Red Skin]

18 minutes ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

Massive difference between 'not celebrating' and vile abuse, deliberate disruption and sponsoring terrorism. We'll have to agree to differ. Respect your views but it's a very emotive subject.

Fair enough.  Think all Celtic/Rangers stuff should stay off OTIB so we can all agree on how sh1te <insert current scapegoat here> is and all give them dogs abuse. 

[Roger Red Hat]

 

[GodEmperor Palpatine]

On 8/23/2016 at 16:46, SARJ said:

To the issue in hand: there is nothing wrong with waving the flag of any nation in a football stadium in my opinion. Yet when you deliberately wave it to antagonise another set of fans or players, that’s where it’s wrong i.e. I doubt Celtic have many Palestinian supporters of fans from the Gaza strip, so come on people, we all know what the flag display was about: annoying the Jews. For that I’m 100% with UEFA on their ruling. If, it transpires, Celtic do actually have 20k Palestinian flags inside their stadium on a weekly basis, who wave Palestine flags as a homage to their homeland, I’ll happily eat humble pie, but let’s be honest, there isn’t.

On a related note, some were waving Russian flags at Leicester fans during that Champions Cup thingy... it was provocative due to a Leicester fan who was seriously injured by Russian hooligans at Euro 2016 and maybe because it was an English club of course...

Plus their rap sheet which is as long as your arm would probably deem this was a provocative act