Squad Rotation - on a Tuesday?! (Merged)

[Bobfish]

Christ, what is wrong with some of you old timers. This is not the 70's.

 

1)There is no "first eleven." Managers pick players and formations depending on the opposition, i.e. tall, short, powerful, skillful, fast. This is not Roy Bodgeson's England team. Today managers actually research who they are going to play. It helps.

2) Our successful, perhaps best, transfer window is linked to this. "Tammy come to us, you wont be in the first eleven because Kodjia is." Or "We have a squad of players, you will get your chance." - Look at who we bought - no one joined us to sit on the bench. That’s why we have been able to sign young players with potential.

3) Please oh please, complimenting Magnasson or Moore is not a veiled dig at your precious Flint. Guess what, we all love flint. It's not cheating on him or anything. (I know this was on another forum, but I am sick of it.)

4) Complaining of squad rotation and also of players not being 100% fit is daft. This is the modern game when the level of fitness is immense, and does not involve daily trips to the pub. Thus players need competitive matches.

5) The academy.

 

[View from the Dolman]

14 minutes ago, Alan Dicks' Barmy Army said:

Why should we?

Surely we deserve as paying customers that the best available side is put out?

Good luck finding agreement on that.

[Ohbasso]

3 minutes ago, phantom said:

Didn't LJ say in an interview recently he didn't know he best 11 yet?

I don't know, the point I was making was even if he had to write down his favourite eleven, like we do on here before matches, he won't put that team out week after week due to the reasons in my post. 

[ChippenhamRed]

9 minutes ago, Alan Dicks' Barmy Army said:

Why should we?

Surely we deserve as paying customers that the best available side is put out?

What complete and utter nonsense.  So you would run the first 11 into the ground because you're a "paying customer"?  As a fellow paying customer, I'll tell you what I ultimately want - promotion and success in the long term.  And if the manager deems it necessary to make changes in certain games to achieve that ultimate aim, then so be it - whether I happen to agree with it or not.  He sees the squad every day and he is paid to make such decisions.  It's about what's best in the long term, not satisfying the whims of short-sighted supporters who throw their toys of out the pram if their favourite player doesn't play every week.  Nowhere on my £12 ticket did it say I would get a say in team selection.  It said Bristol City, and last night that's who we watched.

[spudski]

15 minutes ago, Bobfish said:

Christ, what is wrong with some of you old timers. This is not the 70's.

 

1)There is no "first eleven." Managers pick players and formations depending on the opposition, i.e. tall, short, powerful, skillful, fast. This is not Roy Bodgeson's England team. Today managers actually research who they are going to play. It helps.

2) Our successful, perhaps best, transfer window is linked to this. "Tammy come to us, you wont be in the first eleven because Kodjia is." Or "We have a squad of players, you will get your chance." - Look at who we bought - no one joined us to sit on the bench. That’s why we have been able to sign young players with potential.

3) Please oh please, complimenting Magnasson or Moore is not a veiled dig at your precious Flint. Guess what, we all love flint. It's not cheating on him or anything. (I know this was on another forum, but I am sick of it.)

4) Complaining of squad rotation and also of players not being 100% fit is daft. This is the modern game when the level of fitness is immense, and does not involve daily trips to the pub. Thus players need competitive matches.

5) The academy.

 

You beat me to it...thought I'd gone back in a time warp to 1970's thinking.

Comparing Alan Dick's reign to now, is purely naïve...football has moved on leaps and bounds.

Like you so rightly say...there is no 'first eleven' or best eleven. You pick a team depending on, who the opponents are, the competition, fitness, upcoming match's, injuries, experience or gaining experience...etc,etc,etc.

It's so hard to talk about football sometimes, when certain people keep referring back to how it used to be in the past. It's utterly pointless and frustrating.

It's this type of thinking that holds a club back...living for the moment, instead of looking at the bigger picture and a brighter future. It's the same kind of thinking as when certain fans constantly sing about the GAS...mental...who cares!!!

[RedM]

I'd much rather a bit of rotation where all players are fit and ready when needed. They will have all played alongside eachother at some point too and will at least have the belief they will get a game.

Or shall we go back to how some previous managers have used the squad, or rather not used the squad, and pick favourites regardless of form or slight injury. Shall we have the finge players becoming despondent and seeking other clubs as they see no hope of getting a game and if they do they are so match rusty it doesn't work?

[Monkeh]

1 hour ago, Aaron-Bcfc said:

Lee always rotates the side a lot. Recently he's made 4 changes against Forest, 5 changes against Cardiff, 4 changes against QPR. Why would have last night have only been 1 or 2?

stop pissing on my chips

[North London Red]

5 minutes ago, spudski said:

You beat me to it...thought I'd gone back in a time warp to 1970's thinking.

Comparing Alan Dick's reign to now is purely naïve...football has moved on leaps and bounds.

Like you so rightly say...there is no 'first eleven' or best eleven. You pick a team depending on, who the opponents are, the competition, fitness, upcoming match's, injuries, experience or gaining experience...etc,etc,etc.

It's so hard to talk about football sometimes, when certain people keep referring back to how it used to be in the past. It's utterly pointless and frustrating.

The reason I mentioned Alan Dicks and Leeds in 74 (incidentally before my time, but certainly a game my dad and others of his generation remember fondly) is that many of our best memories as City fans have come from cup games. Pick your top 10 City memories and I suspect several will be from cup matches. These days many of our fans don't seem at all bothered if we send out sub-strength teams in cup competitions, which I think is unfortunate. Just 3 years ago Bradford showed it is possible to be promoted after a 46 game season (and play offs) and also reach a cup final in the same season. 

[Monkeh]

3 minutes ago, North London Red said:

The reason I mentioned Alan Dicks and Leeds in 74 (incidentally before my time, but certainly a game my dad and others of his generation remember fondly) is that many of our best memories as City fans have come from cup games. Pick your top 10 City memories and I suspect several will be from cup matches. These days many of our fans don't seem at all bothered if we send out sub-strength teams in cup competitions, which I think is unfortunate. Just 3 years ago Bradford showed it is possible to be promoted after a 46 game season (and play offs) and also reach a cup final in the same season. 

i can hand on heart say I don't give a toss about the league cup until the semi's its on par with the Johnsons paint with me,

[Red Exile]

6 minutes ago, spudski said:

You beat me to it...thought I'd gone back in a time warp to 1970's thinking.

Comparing Alan Dick's reign to now is purely naïve...football has moved on leaps and bounds.

Like you so rightly say...there is no 'first eleven' or best eleven. You pick a team depending on, who the opponents are, the competition, fitness, upcoming match's, injuries, experience or gaining experience...etc,etc,etc.

It's so hard to talk about football sometimes, when certain people keep referring back to how it used to be in the past. It's utterly pointless and frustrating.

And depressing. Here we have one of the brighter and more articulate young managers in the game, someone who's very happy to answer all questions asked about his approach to the game, to explain all his decisions and who's managing a side in the top 6 of one of the most competitive leagues in the world. The top 6...dizzy heights for Bristol City at almost any point in their history. He seems to be doing a pretty good job to me. If folk don't agree with his decisions they can't say he doesn't explain them.

[Bobfish]

18 minutes ago, spudski said:

You beat me to it...thought I'd gone back in a time warp to 1970's thinking.

Comparing Alan Dick's reign to now, is purely naïve...football has moved on leaps and bounds.

Like you so rightly say...there is no 'first eleven' or best eleven. You pick a team depending on, who the opponents are, the competition, fitness, upcoming match's, injuries, experience or gaining experience...etc,etc,etc.

It's so hard to talk about football sometimes, when certain people keep referring back to how it used to be in the past. It's utterly pointless and frustrating.

It's this type of thinking that holds a club back...living for the moment, instead of looking at the bigger picture and a brighter future. It's the same kind of thinking as when certain fans constantly sing about the GAS...mental...who cares!!!

I agree. I don't post much, but I read the forums every day and too, too often I think:

 

Still the club is moving forward now.

[Kid in the Riot]

1 hour ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

Because he'd learnt from the insipid performances against Cardiff and QPR that numerous changes can be far from beneficial?

A manager who routinely makes 3 or 4 changes every game will never know his best team, and that team will never have an opportunity to gel.

Funny you haven't raised this before Nogbad? Is that because LJ's rotation policy has been working, as we've been winning?

[spudski]

4 minutes ago, North London Red said:

The reason I mentioned Alan Dicks and Leeds in 74 (incidentally before my time, but certainly a game my dad and others of his generation remember fondly) is that many of our best memories as City fans have come from cup games. Pick your top 10 City memories and I suspect several will be from cup matches. These days many of our fans don't seem at all bothered if we send out sub-strength teams in cup competitions, which I think is unfortunate. Just 3 years ago Bradford showed it is possible to be promoted after a 46 game season (and play offs) and also reach a cup final in the same season. 

That's all in the past though...Times are different.

I've got fond memories of Cup games, against Leeds, Chelsea, Forest etc...fun on the day...and I've spent years recalling those memories, whilst watching City week in, week out, bobbing about between Championship and League 1.

A frustrating team, that occasionally pulled off a shock win or gave it a good go...often the gallant losers.

We've underachieved all my life...because we've been mismanaged and had amateur and backward thinking.

Our highlights......the so nearly games, and an unhealthy relationship with a local 'rival' that imo, holds us back and draws us down to their level so many times.

We now have a fantastic new stadium, a great forward thinking modern manager, are being more professionally run, and a bigger attending fan base.

We are building a SQUAD of players for now and the near future. Aiming high...to get to the top of the Championship...to keep building and hopefully establish ourselves here or even push for promotion.

I'd like to think by using our SQUAD in all occasions, and giving the youth a chance, it will at long last develop a Club that can achieve and establish ourselves for the long term.

I'm all for this new stance....I'm fed up of being a Bristol City fan, struggling in this league or trying to get of League 1 like Sheffield Utd.

I want our future to have memories every weekend...not a few cup games where we put up a good show like in the past...sod that, I'm fed up with it.

I want Bristol City to be an established Championship Club that are respected throughout football...not some tin pot club, that other fans laugh at. And for the GAS to be never mentioned again within the four stands of Ashton Gate...because Guess what...it's really shite ;-)

 

 

[Robin Ashton]

55 minutes ago, North London Red said:

 

Also, it is possible to target both promotion and a cup run in the same season. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

I seem to remember it happening in 2014-15...

[North London Red]

9 minutes ago, spudski said:

That's all in the past though...Times are different.

I've got fond memories of Cup games, against Leeds, Chelsea, Forest etc...fun on the day...and I've spent years recalling those memories, whilst watching City week in, week out, bobbing about between Championship and League 1.

A frustrating team, that occasionally pulled off a shock win or gave it a good go...often the gallant losers.

We've underachieved all my life...because we've been mismanaged and had amateur and backward thinking.

Our highlights......the so nearly games, and an unhealthy relationship with a local 'rival' that imo, holds us back and draws us down to their level so many times.

We now have a fantastic new stadium, a great forward thinking modern manager, are being more professionally run, and a bigger attending fan base.

We are building a SQUAD of players for now and the near future. Aiming high...to get to the top of the Championship...to keep building and hopefully establish ourselves here or even push for promotion.

I'd like to think by using our SQUAD in all occasions, and giving the youth a chance, it will at long last develop a Club that can achieve and establish ourselves for the long term.

I'm all for this new stance....I'm fed up of being a Bristol City fan, struggling in this league or trying to get of League 1 like Sheffield Utd.

I want our future to have memories every weekend...not a few cup games where we put up a good show like in the past...sod that, I'm fed up with it.

I want Bristol City to be an established Championship Club that are respected throughout football...not some tin pot club, that other fans laugh at. And for the GAS to be never mentioned again within the four stands of Ashton Gate...because Guess what...it's really shite ;-)

 

 

I don't disagree with any of that. Of course I want us to be successful in the league and to have memories every weekend, and to have a healthy long term outlook.

I also want us to be successful in the cups. You don't have to sacrifice one to achieve the other. I get the fact you can't play the same 11 week after week after week but at the same time I felt the team Johnson sent out last night was too weak, especially in light of the opportunity to reach a quarter final of a major cup for the first time in nearly 30 years. Seems like I am in a minority though. 

If this makes me 'purely naive' or my opinions 'utterly pointless and frustrating', then so be it.

[MichaelRobartes]

I thought we played pretty well for the most part. We restricted them to a few long range strikes in the first half (fair enough, one hit the bar) until we decided not to bother defending that corner. But for our defending of those two corners I thought we played well and was fairly encouraged by the performances of some of the younger and fringe players. I was also pleased to see the likes of O'Dowda and Engvall playing most of the game, as well as Moore in his proper position. Twelve quid well spent from where I'm sitting.

[Leveller]

31 minutes ago, Monkeh said:

i can hand on heart say I don't give a toss about the league cup until the semi's its on par with the Johnsons paint with me,

Bizarre comment! So if we reached the semi final you'd be interested, but not in the games you need to win to get there.

[Alan Dicks' Barmy Army]

55 minutes ago, ChippenhamRed said:

What complete and utter nonsense.  So you would run the first 11 into the ground because you're a "paying customer"?  As a fellow paying customer, I'll tell you what I ultimately want - promotion and success in the long term.  And if the manager deems it necessary to make changes in certain games to achieve that ultimate aim, then so be it - whether I happen to agree with it or not.  He sees the squad every day and he is paid to make such decisions.  It's about what's best in the long term, not satisfying the whims of short-sighted supporters who throw their toys of out the pram if their favourite player doesn't play every week.  Nowhere on my £12 ticket did it say I would get a say in team selection.  It said Bristol City, and last night that's who we watched.

How are they being "run into the ground" - the team has been swapped 3/4/5 players per game recently, before last night we had FOUR games in 24 days, hardly anywhere near running them into the ground !!!

Basically BCFC have played the game that the league is their priority, unfortunately for us people that invested our time and money into watching them surrender the result to Hull, I thought if we could go in at half time 0-0 then we had a chance, then keep it scoreless for the first ten minutes of the second half then bring on our big guns, as you know we failed to do either and now Saturdays result has more significance because if we lose the game we all know where the finger will be pointed.

[spudski]

2 minutes ago, North London Red said:

I don't disagree with any of that. Of course I want us to be successful in the league and to have memories every weekend, and to have a healthy long term outlook.

I also want us to be successful in the cups. You don't have to sacrifice one to achieve the other. I get the fact you can't play the same 11 week after week after week but at the same time I felt the team Johnson sent out last night was too weak, especially in light of the opportunity to reach a quarter final of a major cup for the first time in nearly 30 years. Seems like I am in a minority though. 

Weak in what respect?

We outplayed Hull for a great majority of open play. We had the same amount of possession.

Had more shots on and off target.

How would have playing others in the squad guaranteed a win?

We actually played better yesterday than we have in the last 3 games.

And aside from that...when would you give the likes of Engval, Moore, McCoulsky etc a chance to play some decent minutes?

We've cried out for a manager to give young players a chance, and to get experience and to challenge themselves...you aren't going to get a better opportunity than last night.

Pack and Owdowda also had fantastic games. Much better delivery and penetration than when Smith, GoN and Freeman were all playing together in the same formation. Wilbs had a good game too.

Both goals came from 'experienced' players errors at set pieces.

We learnt a lot from last night...much more than playing the same 11 and losing or even winning.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this point mate...I respect your opinion, although find it frustrating.

 

 

[BRISTOL86]

1 hour ago, North London Red said:

OK, take a more recent example. Bradford made it to the league cup final in 2012-13 and also achieved promotion in the same season. Why do so many people seem to think that success in the league and a cup run are mutually exclusive?

I agree I'm not saying the squad needed to be rotated so heavily per se. Just that I can understand Johnson for doing so. 7 games in 20 odd days is a hell of a lot and what's the point in FINALLY having a squad with good depth if we don't use it?

People focussing too much on the volume of changes since Saturday. The main point for me is there were only 3/18 players in that squad last night that haven't started league games for us this season, and two of those were on the bench. 

From the reaction on here you'd think we put the under 12s out! 

[North London Red]

8 minutes ago, spudski said:

Weak in what respect?

We outplayed Hull for a great majority of open play. We had the same amount of possession.

Had more shots on and off target.

How would have playing others in the squad guaranteed a win?

We actually played better yesterday than we have in the last 3 games.

And aside from that...when would you give the likes of Engval, Moore, McCoulsky etc a chance to play some decent minutes?

We've cried out for a manager to give young players a chance, and to get experience and to challenge themselves...you aren't going to get a better opportunity than last night.

Pack and Owdowda also had fantastic games. Much better delivery and penetration than when Smith, GoN and Freeman were all playing together in the same formation. Wilbs had a good game too.

Both goals came from 'experienced' players errors at set pieces.

We learnt a lot from last night...much more than playing the same 11 and losing or even winning.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this point mate...I respect your opinion, although find it frustrating.

 

 

Well...we were certainly weak at defending set pieces. If Magnusson (for example) had played then the corner deliveries that led to Hull's two goals may have been cleared - can't say for sure, just as you rightly point out that nobody can say for sure that playing any other players would have guaranteed a win. But surely most would agree that our two most dangerous offensive players right now (and the two most likely to trouble a premier league defence) are Tomlin and Abraham? In my 'frustrating' opinion, leaving both on the bench left us offensively weaker as a team. Just my opinion. 

I agree that many of the team actually played well last night but the cutting edge we needed in the final third didn't arrive until it was too late. 

[Big C]

3 minutes ago, North London Red said:

Well...we were certainly weak at defending set pieces. If Magnusson (for example) had played then the corner deliveries that led to Hull's two goals may have been cleared - can't say for sure, just as you rightly point out that nobody can say for sure that playing any other players would have guaranteed a win. But surely most would agree that our two most dangerous offensive players right now (and the two most likely to trouble a premier league defence) are Tomlin and Abraham? In my 'frustrating' opinion, leaving both on the bench left us offensively weaker as a team. Just my opinion. 

I agree that many of the team actually played well last night but the cutting edge we needed in the final third didn't arrive until it was too late. 

Off course it made us offensively weaker but they aren't robots especially Tammy who is only just 19. You cant run him into the ground. He's played a lot of football recently as well as being ill with it. I don't begrudge giving him a rest at all. 

[North London Red]

4 minutes ago, Big C said:

Off course it made us offensively weaker but they aren't robots especially Tammy who is only just 19. You cant run him into the ground. He's played a lot of football recently as well as being ill with it. I don't begrudge giving him a rest at all. 

Then why bring him on at all? If we'd equalised at the death there'd have been another 30 minutes to play. If it was so important to rest players why did Johnson send Abraham and Tomlin on knowing that if we did get back to 2-2, both would play for 60 minutes?

[Kid in the Riot]

23 minutes ago, Alan Dicks' Barmy Army said:

How are they being "run into the ground" - the team has been swapped 3/4/5 players per game recently, before last night we had FOUR games in 24 days, hardly anywhere near running them into the ground !!!

Basically BCFC have played the game that the league is their priority, unfortunately for us people that invested our time and money into watching them surrender the result to Hull, I thought if we could go in at half time 0-0 then we had a chance, then keep it scoreless for the first ten minutes of the second half then bring on our big guns, as you know we failed to do either and now Saturdays result has more significance because if we lose the game we all know where the finger will be pointed.

What an insulting comment. LJ put a side out to win the game and they tried their damned hardest, looked good and on another night could easily have won. Saw some lovely stuff being played last night plus a couple of promising players in Engvall and McClousky making their home debuts.

It was a perfectly enjoyable performance from where I was sat and given 'ole ole ole Bristol City' was ringing around the ground at the final whistle (rarely, if ever, heard in defeat) I would say most agreed.

[spudski]

2 minutes ago, North London Red said:

Well...we were certainly weak at defending set pieces. If Magnusson (for example) had played then the corner deliveries that led to Hull's two goals may have been cleared - can't say for sure, just as you rightly point out that nobody can say for sure that playing any other players would have guaranteed a win. But surely most would agree that our two most dangerous offensive players right now (and the two most likely to trouble a premier league defence) are Tomlin and Abraham? In my 'frustrating' opinion, leaving both on the bench left us offensively weaker as a team. Just my opinion. 

I agree that many of the team actually played well last night but the cutting edge we needed in the final third didn't arrive until it was too late. 

We'll have to agree to disagree mate...I don't think Magners would have made any difference last night at the set pieces. Nor imo...would playing Tomlin and Tammy a full 90 mins.

Offensively...we were far more offensive last night, than we have been the last three games playing both Tammy and Tomlin.

I actually thought Tomlin looked more effective coming on as a Sub tbh. His energy and skill was far more effective in those 40 mins, than it usually is for 95.

His two energy sapping, and skilful runs with purpose, and shots against tiring opponents, was very positive. You could ask the question whether he could have done that having played the first 45. He often goes missing trying to recover in games. I can actually see us playing him in this role in the future, and the likes of Engval and Tammy/another playing up front from the start....with a more energetic midfield playing for the first 45.

It's now nice to have the options, of a solid squad to choose from, with an array of different skills that will benefit us throughout a long season.

 

[Big C]

5 minutes ago, North London Red said:

Then why bring him on at all? If we'd equalised at the death there'd have been another 30 minutes to play. If it was so important to rest players why did Johnson send Abraham and Tomlin on knowing that if we did get back to 2-2, both would play for 60 minutes?

I was a bit miffed. Tammy wouldn't have been in my squad at all but I guess we still wanted to win the game and bringing them on against a tired team almost paid off. It also in my opinion shows a few things, it puts to bed the argument that LJ wasn't interested in the game, it also shows that he felt that the team he put out was capable of doing the job and that he was probably hoping not to have to use them at all.

[Unan]

2 hours ago, North London Red said:

Should Joe Jordan have rotated the team when we played Forest in 89? After all, we had a league game against Fulham just three days later.

Should Alan Dicks have rotated the team when we played Leeds in 74? After all, we had a league game against West Brom just four days later.

Should Osman have rotated the team when we played Liverpool in 94?

Can anyone remember the league games immediately before or after any of the cup games mentioned here?

Some of our best memories as City fans have come from cup games. Last night was a huge missed opportunity to make the later rounds for the first time in years.

Did the Prem give you 100m every year back then?

 

(I agree with your point but it's not compareable)

[cidered abroad]

We have a first team squad and it is therefore sensible to use all of the players as often as is possible. The fact that some are considered as "first choice" at present is irrelevant because if the "second choice" are never given these opportunities, how will they cope when injuries and suspensions arise?

I consider that we put up a reasonable show against a Premier team. OK so Hull are struggling because their owner will not invest and wants to sell the club. Yet this is a club that has won promotion from the Championship three times since 2008 and reached an FA Cup Final. So there must be more Premier quality players in their squad than in ours. In other words a reasonable go at getting to the League Cup Quarter Finals but just not good enough. Not by a mile but enough for Hull to sneak past us.

Let's give LJ and the squad a bit more credit and less of the negative posts.

PS, I'm not a "Happy Clapper" and will criticise when it's needed but not for last night.

[Olé]

So this is a thing, now? Can't complain about signings because we've spent money. Can't complain about results because they're generally impressive. Can't complain about our strength in depth because we finally have some. So we're now complaining about actually using the squad that was assembled?

Blimey. The primary reason for these selections is unlikely to be protecting fitness, as some are surprised by, the primary reason for these selections is to promote and develop form and experience of other players we invested in so they can do a job. And any one from last night can now do so on Saturday.

That's what a good manager does. Creates an abundance of match ready playing options. Player goes down, next one ready to go. Always seems strange in the past to hear that clubs that avoid injuries owe that to their success. What an odd, uncontrollable way of thinking about how you achieve success.

LJ (and I was by no means excited by the appointment) is clearly with hindsight, forward thinking and innovative and has no doubt figured out that to be in a good position for success, you don't hope for luck avoiding injury, you prepare for them. Create depth, competition and give all those players a chance.

The reason some people are surprised is any other manager in living memory, would have looked like a bit of a fraud trying to promote the likes of McKop, Gillespie, Partridge, Odejayi, Stewart as serious alternatives. We're now really invested on like for like quality and last night's team was as good as any.

Also, this whole "as a paying customer" thing is odd. What exactly is a paying customer entitled to? At a push there is a case that for your £12 you want to see players that we've invested in. And yet you got a £2m striker, a £1.5m winger and a £1.5m central defender - all relatively new, and all of whom did well.

Honestly, there were people actually tweeting at @bcfctweets last night that they want their money back due to the team selection. These people shouldn't be allowed to have phones or go to football matches. They should be force-fed glitzy primetime television that their tiny pea sized brains can cope with. 

[Dave]

My comment here would be the pre match press conference, LJ made comments along the lines of "a chance to see how we compare against a Premier League standard" and "an opportunity to get to the quarter finals" hinted to me the changes would be minimal. 

I was encouraged by what I saw, but it would have been nice to be looking forward to the draw tonight.