where's the joy Posted December 20, 2016 Report Share Posted December 20, 2016 if its broke fix it and our one up top+ flat back four ain't working. so please play lucic moore, flint, magnusson matthews, pack, tomlin, smith, bryan engvall, abraham give bobby a year to learn how to score, away from the team. get pack closer to their goal as he can shoot and play smith right in front of the centre back simples Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cidered abroad Posted December 20, 2016 Report Share Posted December 20, 2016 8 minutes ago, where's the joy said: if its broke fix it and our one up top+ flat back four ain't working. so please play lucic moore, flint, magnusson matthews, pack, tomlin, smith, bryan engvall, abraham give bobby a year to learn how to score, away from the team. get pack closer to their goal as he can shoot and play smith right in front of the centre back simples I was beginning to agree with you until you stated that Pack can shoot. How many goals in three years? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinman85 Posted December 20, 2016 Report Share Posted December 20, 2016 Totally agree with this apart from O'Neil is by far a better player than Smith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jj77 Posted December 20, 2016 Report Share Posted December 20, 2016 What about 4-4-2 with 2 pacey wingers who get to the by-line and cross it in for the big man. It's the future, it says so on this forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Welcome To The Jungle Posted December 20, 2016 Report Share Posted December 20, 2016 5 minutes ago, jj77 said: What about 4-4-2 with 2 pacey wingers who get to the by-line and cross it in for the big man. It's the future, it says so on this forum. And who are they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob k Posted December 20, 2016 Report Share Posted December 20, 2016 3-5-2 didnt we concede near on 70 goals last season with this formation and only stayed up because we reverted to a 4? tinker with the formation by all means but for me we definitely need to play with 4 at the back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarmyArmy Posted December 20, 2016 Report Share Posted December 20, 2016 If we play 3 at the back it has to be 3-4-3 for me. Anyone we can find Flint Moore Magnusson Matthews O'Neil Pack Bryan Freeman Abraham Tomlin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cider-Head23 Posted December 20, 2016 Report Share Posted December 20, 2016 4 minutes ago, BarmyArmy said: If we play 3 at the back it has to be 3-4-3 for me. Anyone we can find Flint Moore Magnusson Matthews O'Neil Pack Bryan Freeman Abraham Tomlin Agree with this, although Freeman has done fairly well. I'd swap him and put O'Dowda in, surely he has to be really fresh as he's had minimal time in the team lately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Welcome To The Jungle Posted December 20, 2016 Report Share Posted December 20, 2016 14 minutes ago, Rob k said: 3-5-2 didnt we concede near on 70 goals last season with this formation and only stayed up because we reverted to a 4? tinker with the formation by all means but for me we definitely need to play with 4 at the back. With a different manager and different (bar Flint) defenders. Chelsea are playing three at the back and are doing alright. We must not get bogged down by what has happened in the past and let it affect our furture if it could make us better. For us to not play three at the back because of what happened in the past is like our club no signing overseas players because of Styvar. Just a silly decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spudski Posted December 20, 2016 Report Share Posted December 20, 2016 Did no one listen to the players being interviewed when we regularly played 352 under SC? Those that played wing backs found it a nightmare. If anyone thinks Matthews could play wing back, then with respect, start watching rugby instead, you don't understand football. He can barely put in a sprint without stretching his hamstrings to breaking point playing as a deep sitting RB now...expecting him to play wing back is laughable. Even a very fit Bryan would struggle. It's not our formation that's so much a problem, but the quality of players trying to execute them efficiently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
havanatopia Posted December 20, 2016 Report Share Posted December 20, 2016 55 minutes ago, where's the joy said: if its broke fix it and our one up top+ flat back four ain't working. so please play lucic moore, flint, magnusson matthews, pack, tomlin, smith, bryan engvall, abraham give bobby a year to learn how to score, away from the team. get pack closer to their goal as he can shoot and play smith right in front of the centre back simples Assuming Mags is ok on the left. But Smith in the hole? Thats a big job and not sure he is capable just now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingLear Posted December 20, 2016 Report Share Posted December 20, 2016 I'd stick with 4 at the back, I don't think changing the defensive shape now is going to stop us conceding goals, if anything it'll probably hinder it. We haven't conceded more than 2 goals in any game since the 2-3 defeat at Sheffield Wednesday (27 goals conceded in 22 games I think which isn't that bad). I would play the following; Fielding Flint Magnusson Matthews Golbourne O'Neil Pack Tomlin O'Dowda Freeman Abraham Have O'Neil running the show in midfield hopefully showing some early season form, I don't think we have anyone who can play wing back so lets get our best full backs in and let them do what they do best, defend. I think playing Pack a bit further forward will help him as it did last season alongside Tomlin who is wasted out wide. Freeman has been one of the more consistent performers so no need to drop him, that leaves the only position I was unsure of, you could quite easily play Paterson there but I think freshening things up with O'Dowda to try to get to that byeline and put the balls in the right areas for Abraham. Reid has always looked good coming off the bench and not forgetting Wilbraham who is still contributing when we need 2 up top. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jj77 Posted December 20, 2016 Report Share Posted December 20, 2016 1 hour ago, Welcome To The Jungle said: And who are they? Mark Gavin and Louie Donawa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ollywhyte Posted December 20, 2016 Report Share Posted December 20, 2016 Lucic Flint Moore Magnusson Matthews O'Neil Brownhill Bryan Paterson Tomlin Abraham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1960maaan Posted December 20, 2016 Report Share Posted December 20, 2016 1 hour ago, Rob k said: 3-5-2 didnt we concede near on 70 goals last season with this formation and only stayed up because we reverted to a 4? tinker with the formation by all means but for me we definitely need to play with 4 at the back. Nothing to do with the system, all to do with how Cott's employed it. The only defender that 'stayed' was Flint, the other two were like overlapping centre backs! He also flogged the WB's to death with no rest. The way Chelsea have got it working is great, OK better players but way they do it is a variation that works well. 5 minutes ago, ollywhyte said: Lucic Flint Moore Magnusson Matthews O'Neil Brownhill Bryan Paterson Tomlin Abraham I'd probably switch Brownhill with Mathews and have Pack in the centre and have Reid for Paterson, but it looks promising with support for Tammy. 4-3-3 anyone Lucic Mathews Flint Mags Golbourne Brownhill Oneil Pack Tomlin Tammy Odowda All means nothing really , unless LJ reads the forum....... ummm Hi Lee , just in case Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray White Posted December 20, 2016 Report Share Posted December 20, 2016 2 hours ago, cidered abroad said: I was beginning to agree with you until you stated that Pack can shoot. How many goals in three years? He doesn't get in the positions to though does he because it's not his job. Watch him in the warm ups pre match when they do the shooting drill. They're aren't many better than him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeAman08 Posted December 20, 2016 Report Share Posted December 20, 2016 I don't think there is anything wrong with formation just lacking quality championship players in a few positions. The midfielder role next to GON is one. Bobby is the best of what we've got but he's better further forward. Need an athletic and strong midfielder next to him that'll go box to box. An example would be Preston's Daniel Johnson(example not who I think we should target). We've seen with Leicester and Chelsea the difference one athletic midfielder can be with Kante. We need a championship version. We need that second striker who can take pressure off Tammy. A goal can change a game and I'm sure if we were able to score first in many of the games we've had the edge in, we'd have probably gone on to win and maybe not concede as many. Many goals are from counter attacks as we are pressing for an enqualiser. Two positions we must get to consistent championship level. I think they'd make all the difference in the world if we could find them. I imagine everyone will be looking for players like that though. Got to trust they can get it done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reddogkev Posted December 20, 2016 Report Share Posted December 20, 2016 All of this shows our squad has plenty of options / possible formations. I wonder how Lee sleeps at night, all of the possible formations and player combinations would have me tossing and turning until the morning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spudski Posted December 20, 2016 Report Share Posted December 20, 2016 49 minutes ago, reddogkev said: All of this shows our squad has plenty of options / possible formations. I wonder how Lee sleeps at night, all of the possible formations and player combinations would have me tossing and turning until the morning. I really can't agree with this fella...with respect, fans don't get to see players in training every day, and some of these players mentioned have only been used a few times. Certain fans, just see Defender, Midfielder, winger and striker, and think they can slot them into formations based purely on that. Playing Matthews as a wing back, is a good indication of that. You just can't do it...it's like they are Top trumps cards it seems...bracketed by their 'Tag'. These players need to be watched day to day, to see what they can do...their strengths and weaknesses etc. They aren't chess pieces that can be just moved about, how fans think it will work. This isn't a dig at you mate, as you are pretty much on the ball and level headed...just pointing out that often fans talk about 'formations' without ever considering whether a player could actually do a job there...the Matthews example is a strong case for this. It's almost cringe worthy reading it sometimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob k Posted December 20, 2016 Report Share Posted December 20, 2016 6 hours ago, Welcome To The Jungle said: With a different manager and different (bar Flint) defenders. Chelsea are playing three at the back and are doing alright. We must not get bogged down by what has happened in the past and let it affect our furture if it could make us better. For us to not play three at the back because of what happened in the past is like our club no signing overseas players because of Styvar. Just a silly decision. Ok I will go with it, who are you going to play left wing back? JB has proven he can't do it at this level and I can't see SG being offensive enough for it, Who are you going to play RWB? little and Matthews are not fit enough and Little certainly is not good enough offensively which leaves us with a bit of an issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Welcome To The Jungle Posted December 20, 2016 Report Share Posted December 20, 2016 38 minutes ago, Rob k said: Ok I will go with it, who are you going to play left wing back? JB has proven he can't do it at this level and I can't see SG being offensive enough for it, Who are you going to play RWB? little and Matthews are not fit enough and Little certainly is not good enough offensively which leaves us with a bit of an issue. For me Joeys defensive frailty is mostly in his positioning, which is less important at wing back, where your defensive responsibility is basicly to just get back. He has a half decent cross too so for me, he'd work. On the RWB position It may be a case of play both every game and sub one off and one on. However this position is weak, but we have a weakness no matter what formation we play, and having a weak wing back position is worth strengthening our midfield and being able to play two up top imo. Or 3-5-2 could be a disaster and you could be right in your original post, however we don't know till we try... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red-Robbo Posted December 20, 2016 Report Share Posted December 20, 2016 8 hours ago, where's the joy said: if its broke fix it and our one up top+ flat back four ain't working. so please play lucic moore, flint, magnusson matthews, pack, tomlin, smith, bryan engvall, abraham give bobby a year to learn how to score, away from the team. get pack closer to their goal as he can shoot and play smith right in front of the centre back simples Madness to loan out Reid, our most aggressive forward-facing player (and with the second highest goal tally in the side from open play). If we loan him out, he won't be coming back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reddogkev Posted December 20, 2016 Report Share Posted December 20, 2016 5 hours ago, spudski said: I really can't agree with this fella...with respect, fans don't get to see players in training every day, and some of these players mentioned have only been used a few times. Certain fans, just see Defender, Midfielder, winger and striker, and think they can slot them into formations based purely on that. Playing Matthews as a wing back, is a good indication of that. You just can't do it...it's like they are Top trumps cards it seems...bracketed by their 'Tag'. These players need to be watched day to day, to see what they can do...their strengths and weaknesses etc. They aren't chess pieces that can be just moved about, how fans think it will work. This isn't a dig at you mate, as you are pretty much on the ball and level headed...just pointing out that often fans talk about 'formations' without ever considering whether a player could actually do a job there...the Matthews example is a strong case for this. It's almost cringe worthy reading it sometimes. All fair points, but I'm sure there must be a few aspects of picking the team that keep the manager awake at night. Ah, one of the beautiful components of being a fan... the ability to select hundreds of different teams, ponder who might offer an extra option in different areas of the pitch, but the sadness of never seeing your preferred team on the pitch - and of course, fortunately,never experiencing the reality of your team being taken apart by the opposition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spudski Posted December 20, 2016 Report Share Posted December 20, 2016 1 hour ago, reddogkev said: All fair points, but I'm sure there must be a few aspects of picking the team that keep the manager awake at night. Ah, one of the beautiful components of being a fan... the ability to select hundreds of different teams, ponder who might offer an extra option in different areas of the pitch, but the sadness of never seeing your preferred team on the pitch - and of course, fortunately,never experiencing the reality of your team being taken apart by the opposition. Oh I totally agree mate...and I do agree it's nice to pick team selections as a fan, but some of the ideas flashed up on here are as I described earlier, without thought, but rather picked by 'labels'....as in defender, midfielder etc. You've only got to look at the threads, that encourage in depth analysis of team building, formations, patterns of play etc, to see they get very little notice or responses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BanburyRed Posted December 20, 2016 Report Share Posted December 20, 2016 Not that my thoughts are worth anything but.... ..I don't understand why 3-5-2 doesn't get employed more often, if nothing else it seems to offer enormous flexibility. Could keep as a 3-5-2 formation or drop one of the wingbacks into defence to make a 4-4-2 or indeed drop both wingbacks back to shore up with a 5 man defence if you need to protect a lead. Also offers you ability to move a man further forward from the 5 man midfield to effectively become the elusive '10' role behind the front 2. If this pushed on to join the front 2 properly you've then changed to 3-4-3.... I've thought for a while now that we should be playing this formation, I know we did under SC, eventually though you get found out and then I think it comes down to the quality & calibre of players you're asking to play in that system. They have to understand it through training drills then be confident enough and disciplined enough to see it through during a game. Maybe the wingbacks of the 5 in midfield should be more genuine 'winger' based athletes rather than trying to convert fullbacks? Not sure if Patterson and/or O'Dowda fit into this category? Who knows? It's a dilemma, we also have opinions, just wanted to throw mine in there.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silvio Dante Posted December 20, 2016 Report Share Posted December 20, 2016 To me, to play 3-5-2 (or 5-3-2) successfully, there are two key components: - The two 'sided' centre halves need to be comfortable moving to the their respective sides to become auxiliary right or left backs accordingly - The deep lying centre mid needs to have both the positional sense and the physicality to fill in at centre half if needed, and provide a solid screen to the defence The second point in my opinion is more important than the first. If the right sided wing back (for example) is more comfortable attacking than defending, the right sided centre half must be very comfortable playing as auxiliary right back. Conversely, if the right sided wing back is more defensively minded, then it means the ability of the right sided centre half to play right back is less key. Obvious example here is Chelsea. Kante fulfils the second part above but in respect of the right/left sided centre halves, Azpilcueta is comfortable at right back which means Moses has less need to filter back - on the other hand, Cahill isn't that comfortable being pulled out of the centre, so Alonso is a good fit as a 'defending' wing back. Applying this to City, I haven't seen anyone say the '3' if played wouldn't be Moore-Flint-Mags. If you ignore Moores lack of experience (and that is an ask), then the right/left sided centre halves can move to the right/left back roles, meaning you can play a more attacking Joe Bryan as LWB and Matthews as RWB, again with a question mark over his fitness (and again, if you ally that with Moores lack of experience, its a worry) By far the bigger issue to play the formation is that we don't have a 'Kante' at present. O'Neill and Smith have lost form, Pack I don't feel can do the job - hence LJs quote about Kalifa Cisse. So, I'd say you are a defensive midfielder (which could be Smith or O'Neill in form but they may be short of the level needed) and potentially a right wing back (unless you look to see if Brownhill can do the job) or right sided CB short of the formation being totally effective. The front 5 I would say we could cover at this time to play it effectively (e.g. Tomlin, Abraham, Reid, Wilbraham, Freeman, O'Dowda, Paterson etc) So, in summary, its a 'maybe' from me - if we sign a DM of the type above or Smith/O'Neill get form, it could be done. Ruling it out seems churlish though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miketh2nd Posted December 20, 2016 Report Share Posted December 20, 2016 I don't think we need to change formation to improve and always felt Flint doesn't work Aswell in a back 3 but this didn't matter so much in League one. but I couldn't resist a formation team selection thread. I'm not saying this would do well but it would be interesting to see this team. Lucic Moore Flint maggs Matthews. O Dowda Reid O'Neil Tomlin Tammy. Wilbs I suppose if you wanted a more safer team you would pack in for Reid and Bryan/Golbourne for O Dowda. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spudski Posted December 20, 2016 Report Share Posted December 20, 2016 In order to use 352, you've got to have a talented squad. The centre-backs, in particular, need to be of a specific mould. The outside two must be mobile and have good agility. The central defender must be dominant in the air and happy to move forward with the ball—if he isn't positionally perfect, none of them are. It's flawless, or it's tragic. When three at the back meet one up front, it can become tough to figure out who should mark the front man. If the central player man-marks, what do the others do? Little things can throw a three-man defence when it's inexperienced. The biggest worry for a 3-5-2 is when one of the defenders is dragged infield, or gets lost. The success of a back three lies in its rigidity, so when the line is destroyed, the outside two will squeeze in to try and compensate. This leaves massive holes, as there are no full-backs whatsoever. This is where the danger of the false-nine lurks. For centre-backs, you have to be clever players. If the 3-5-2 were to become mainstream, limited defenders who simply tackle and clear would be in danger of becoming redundant. Our Centre backs are 'mainstream'...Moore has potential not to be. When you see some of the 352 formations that are being put forward with Matthews and Bryan and GoN in the team, you are actually making the team less effective and productive and less offensive. 6 players that are more defence minded...how is that going to be more effective? Though the 3-5-2 worked well in the international sphere, it hasn’t been implemented with much success at club level – particularly in the Premier League and Championship. You need certain types of players to play 352 successfully....we don't have them. Simple as that. It's one of the easiest formations to break down and play against when a team doesn't have the right players. We'd be murdered playing 352 with our squad. Can see it being used when chasing a game with nothing to lose and risking everything...but we don't have the players to do 352. Look at our weaknesses....they are so much more obvious than our strengths. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reddoh Posted December 20, 2016 Report Share Posted December 20, 2016 11 hours ago, spudski said: I really can't agree with this fella...with respect, fans don't get to see players in training every day, and some of these players mentioned have only been used a few times. Certain fans, just see Defender, Midfielder, winger and striker, and think they can slot them into formations based purely on that. Playing Matthews as a wing back, is a good indication of that. You just can't do it...it's like they are Top trumps cards it seems...bracketed by their 'Tag'. These players need to be watched day to day, to see what they can do...their strengths and weaknesses etc. They aren't chess pieces that can be just moved about, how fans think it will work. This isn't a dig at you mate, as you are pretty much on the ball and level headed...just pointing out that often fans talk about 'formations' without ever considering whether a player could actually do a job there...the Matthews example is a strong case for this. It's almost cringe worthy reading it sometimes. have they done top trumps cards of footballers ? not knocking your post. or you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spudski Posted December 20, 2016 Report Share Posted December 20, 2016 14 minutes ago, reddoh said: have they done top trumps cards of footballers ? not knocking your post. or you. They have mate...https://www.amazon.co.uk/Top-Trumps-World-Football-Version/dp/B01L6ZD7FM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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