Get With It

[RumRed]

My logic is off?  You asked for the odds of something into the billions to one vs to bcfc losing the next three games..

Wish I were your bookie!

[Mike Hunt-Hertz]

25 minutes ago, RumRed said:

Nope the lottery is random, our form is not.

It's pretty basic, check the odds for three lottery wins vs us losing yet another 3 games.

Can't deal with people that can't even cope with basic logic.

LJ's team selections seem random.

[RumRed]

2 minutes ago, Mike Hunt-Hertz said:

LJ's team selections seem random.

They seem more than to be about who he's not pissed off with this week tbh.

[BobBobSuperBob]

1 minute ago, RumRed said:

They seem more than to be about who he's not pissed off with this week tbh.

As I've suggested in another thread think you may not be far off the mark

[RumRed]

Just now, BobBobSuperBob said:

As I've suggested in another thread think you may not be far off the mark

And I know nothing about it, watching from a distance it seems like it though.

[JamesBCFC]

2 minutes ago, RumRed said:

My logic is off?  You asked for the odds of something into the billions to one vs to bcfc losing the next three games..

Wish I were your bookie!

The odds of us winning (at least) 1 of those 3 vs losing all 3 would be favour of us getting at least a win. 

You asserted with a degree of certainty that we would lose them all.

Being so certain about something with as many variables as football, when our recent results have not matched our performances is incredibly flawed logic.

I'm not saying our performances have been great by any stretch, but we have not deserved to lose 10 out of 11. Yes our form is truly bad right now, but it will change sooner than later, today we gave away 3 silly goals, 2 scored by a player who shouldn't have been on the field. One of those a long range effort where the player trying to close him down was obstructed by the referee.

[BobBobSuperBob]

Just now, RumRed said:

And I know nothing about it, watching from a distance it seems like it though.

From bits I hear and from some of his recent comments in I/vs I'm pretty sure it's the case but that pool of those that are 'with him' is getting smaller and he's having to pick players he'd put to one side previously

[Guest]

1 hour ago, handsofclay said:

As it is a tradition it's odds on we would do it again. I actually think we would've survived had McInnes been backed and not sacked. He has gone on to become one of the top British born managers in the northern part of the UK. Knee jerk reaction again.

I agree with the sentiments of your initial post for this thread.

Your assessment of DM's tenure however is just plain wrong. It is the closest I've ever come to considering not going to Ashton Gate - we played some truly awful games under him (the particular game on Remembrance Day is burned into my mind).

Just because someone leaves us and goes onto make a name for themselves elsewhere, doesn't mean he could have been good for us - it was plain to see that he was not the right fit for City.

You are starting to lose credibility as the thread progresses.

[RumRed]

6 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

From bits I hear and from some of his recent comments in I/vs I'm pretty sure it's the case but that pool of those that are 'with him' is getting smaller and he's having to pick players he'd put to one side previously

Want to 'like' this but it's not what I wanted, I bought into LJ and hoped for better times.

cheers for info though, I was surprised Tomlin was bought on to be honest, LJ must be struggling for those that want to play for him.

[RumRed]

16 minutes ago, JamesBCFC said:

The odds of us winning (at least) 1 of those 3 vs losing all 3 would be favour of us getting at least a win. 

You asserted with a degree of certainty that we would lose them all.

Being so certain about something with as many variables as football, when our recent results have not matched our performances is incredibly flawed logic.

I'm not saying our performances have been great by any stretch, but we have not deserved to lose 10 out of 11. Yes our form is truly bad right now, but it will change sooner than later, today we gave away 3 silly goals, 2 scored by a player who shouldn't have been on the field. One of those a long range effort where the player trying to close him down was obstructed by the referee.

Ok, but our record suggests we're just a little bit rubbish.

Our defence and keeper wouldn't scare an under 16's team in the last 15 minutes.  There is a problem and we need to deal with it asap, the players we have are better than this.

You keep going with your blind faith though, I'm sure it's comforting.

[JamesBCFC]

Just now, RumRed said:

Ok, but our record suggests we're just a little bit rubbish.

Our defence and keeper wouldn't scare an under 16's team in the last 15 minutes.  There is a problem and we need to deal with it asap, the players we have are better than this.

You keep going with your blind faith though, I'm sure it's comforting.

Our record suggests we have one of the best attacks in the league.

Unfortunately we do have a defensive problem at the moment, but with our best defender injured recently and a new signing just coming into the side there's enough to suggest things will improve.

We need a better goalkeeper, we have thrown away about 8 points this season (perhaps more) because of stupid errors by our goalkeepers. I won't go as far as to say that is unprecedented, but it's unusually high for midway through the season.

The return of Magnusson and Wright knowing his teammates game a bit better is enough of a reason to think things might get a little bit better defensively, basic logic would suggest those two things would help, and we all know  you're a fan of basic logic. 

And a logical reason is the exact opposite of blind faith.

[Mike Hunt-Hertz]

23 minutes ago, bcfcfinker said:

I agree with the sentiments of your initial post for this thread.

Your assessment of DM's tenure however is just plain wrong. It is the closest I've ever come to considering not going to Ashton Gate - we played some truly awful games under him (the particular game on Remembrance Day is burned into my mind).

Just because someone leaves us and goes onto make a name for themselves elsewhere, doesn't mean he could have been good for us - it was plain to see that he was not the right fit for City.

You are starting to lose credibility as the thread progresses.

Some fans seem to have a cultish devotion to our prophet. It's like the mythical corner that we turn is the second coming of the Lord.

Unfortunately religion is a load of old bollocks.

[Dr Balls]

Logic, logic, logic...Really?

All things must pass...but who knows when?

That seems to be your hope. That it can't keep on going like this. But it can. Notts County have lost 10 in a row just recently. Derby had the worst season ever in the Premier League with only 16 points & lost 3/4 of their games in one season.

On that basis there is absolutely no logic to the suggestion of "keep doing the same things and it will turn out alright in the end". That's not logic, it's hope. Or blind faith. If you keep doing the same things & getting the same results, the logical answer is that you will continue to get the same results if you keep doing the same things!

All of which implies something had to change. And the most logical change to make is to change the person making the decisions.

However this being football, nothing is ever quite that simple!

[Up The City!]

10 minutes ago, Mike Hunt-Hertz said:

Some fans seem to have a cultish devotion to our prophet. It's like the mythical corner that we turn is the second coming of the Lord.

Unfortunately religion is a load of old bollocks.

Not at all. Personally I believe in the project and I believe in time LJ can deliver. He does need to get some points on the board tho.

[Dr Balls]

7 minutes ago, Up The City! said:

Not at all. Personally I believe in the project and I believe in time LJ can deliver. He does need to get some points on the board tho.

Which project? Promotion from League 1 or being in the Europa League in 5 years time?

At the moment, the former looks more realistic, while the latter looks like a steaming pile of BS!

[Up The City!]

12 minutes ago, Dr Balls said:

Which project? Promotion from League 1 or being in the Europa League in 5 years time?

At the moment, the former looks more realistic, while the latter looks like a steaming pile of BS!

My opinion is if your going to embark on a project then you need to believe in that project 100% and back that project. Rome wasn't built in a day and all that shit. 

Its no good only backing a project when that project is doing well. Even when times are hard belief in that project must remain 

If there was no positive signs of this project one day bearing fruit I'd be right at the front of the queue calling for his head.

[Dr Balls]

9 minutes ago, Up The City! said:

My opinion is if your going to embark on a project then you need to believe in that project 100% and back that project. Rome wasn't built in a day and all that shit. 

Its no good only backing a project when that project is doing well. Even when times are hard belief in that project must remain 

If there was no positive signs of this project one day bearing fruit I'd be right at the front of the queue calling for his head.

Bearing fruit? Hmmm..

Certainly pretty bitter & unpleasant tasting at the moment. If anything it's gone from looking good to going rotten very quickly.

Look I get the whole idea of building the stadium, buying young players for the furure etc, but the whole project falls flat on its face if in 2 years since promotion, we end up back in League 1, which unfortunately appears to be LJ's natural level for managing. He did not save us last season, he wisely didn't tinker much with what Pemberton had already done to turn us around. But left to his own devices, he is proving himself to be the novice he really is. More and more it reminds me of the time Tinman was in charge. One good season, then the wheels fell off big time.

If I was SL, I would be seriously worried that all of the investment in the ground etc, is going to be wasted by not sorting out the here and now. 

Sacking someone who has lost  13 out of the last 16 league matches, 10 out of the last 11 league matches and lost the last 7 league matches in a row is hardly a kneejerk reaction. Most of all it's now the manner of those defeats.

[Mike Hunt-Hertz]

25 minutes ago, Up The City! said:

My opinion is if your going to embark on a project then you need to believe in that project 100% and back that project. Rome wasn't built in a day and all that shit. 

Its no good only backing a project when that project is doing well. Even when times are hard belief in that project must remain 

If there was no positive signs of this project one day bearing fruit I'd be right at the front of the queue calling for his head.

Unfortunately the project more resembles the sack of Rome, rather than its building.

[Dr Balls]

7 minutes ago, Mike Hunt-Hertz said:

Unfortunately the project more resembles the sack of Rome, rather than its building.

Or perhaps it's like when Rome was on fire, and SL is doing his best Nero impression of fiddling while the place burns to the ground?!

[Mike Hunt-Hertz]

5 minutes ago, Dr Balls said:

Or perhaps it's like when Rome was on fire, and SL is doing his best Nero impression of fiddling while the place burns to the ground?!

An even more apposite scenario.

[Up The City!]

17 minutes ago, Dr Balls said:

Bearing fruit? Hmmm..

Certainly pretty bitter & unpleasant tasting at the moment. If anything it's gone from looking good to going rotten very quickly.

Look I get the whole idea of building the stadium, buying young players for the furure etc, but the whole project falls flat on its face if in 2 years since promotion, we end up back in League 1, which unfortunately appears to be LJ's natural level for managing. He did not save us last season, he wisely didn't tinker much with what Pemberton had already done to turn us around. But left to his own devices, he is proving himself to be the novice he really is. More and more it reminds me of the time Tinman was in charge. One good season, then the wheels fell off big time.

If I was SL, I would be seriously worried that all of the investment in the ground etc, is going to be wasted by not sorting out the here and now. 

Sacking someone who has lost  13 out of the last 16 league matches, 10 out of the last 11 league matches and lost the last 7 league matches in a row is hardly a kneejerk reaction. Most of all it's now the manner of those defeats.

I fully share your concerns but look beyond the defeats and those positive signs are there. 

If you was teaching someone an instrument and you know they got the potential but keep playing bum notes etc do you just give up on them? I certainly wouldn't and I won't and I repeat I won't give up on Bristol City. Whoever is our manager, whoever is selected to pay they will recieve my full support. 

At the end of the last two home games I admit I've been tempted to boo like many others, I felt like that out of pure frustration after once again throwing away 3 points. However I kept my mouth shut as negativity breeds negativity and there is enough of that around the stadium as it is.

The manner of the defeats isn't that bad. I guess because we were winning it is much tougher to take, had we lost one nil then doubt there would as much strong feelings going around as there is.

Everyone knows we have a talented squad, everyone knows we should be winning games like today based on our performances for 70 minutes. The fact we end up losing is just incredibly frustrating. 

Im fully aware of all the stats thank you but thank you for reminding me. Maybe as you like your stats you could look at the stats from each game and then try to tell me there are no positives?

Or should we just concentrate on the negitive stats?

[Dr Balls]

9 minutes ago, Up The City! said:

I fully share your concerns but look beyond the defeats and those positive signs are there. 

If you was teaching someone an instrument and you know they got the potential but keep playing bum notes etc do you just give up on them? I certainly wouldn't and I won't and I repeat I won't give up on Bristol City. Whoever is our manager, whoever is selected to pay they will recieve my full support. 

At the end of the last two home games I admit I've been tempted to boo like many others, I felt like that out of pure frustration after once again throwing away 3 points. However I kept my mouth shut as negativity breeds negativity and there is enough of that around the stadium as it is.

The manner of the defeats isn't that bad. I guess because we were winning it is much tougher to take, had we lost one nil then doubt there would as much strong feelings going around as there is.

Everyone knows we have a talented squad, everyone knows we should be winning games like today based on our performances for 70 minutes. The fact we end up losing is just incredibly frustrating. 

Im fully aware of all the stats thank you but thank you for reminding me. Maybe as you like your stats you could look at the stats from each game and then try to tell me there are no positives?

Or should we just concentrate on the negitive stats?

We have been here before with SOD when performances mattered more than results. We got relegated then and didn't win a match for 6 months!

City fans have to be some of the most long suffering ever. And some of the most patient. But I am afraid almost ever fan I know has lost patience with LJ. Performing for 70 minutes in a 90 minute match is not good enough. And it's not just luck we keep losing to late goals. It's bad team selections, confusing tactics, constantly changing formations, and poor substitutions. The buck has to stop somewhere and it stops with him. He has to go if we are to have a fighting chance of staying up.

And the irony is not lost on me that we have gone from Cotterill who would never change team or formation, despite that everyone could see it wasn't working, to a situation where the team selection appears to be done by Camelot with about as much chance of most of us picking the right 11 numbers each week. Talk about veering wildly from one extreme to the other!

[Up The City!]

52 minutes ago, Dr Balls said:

We have been here before with SOD when performances mattered more than results. We got relegated then and didn't win a match for 6 months!

City fans have to be some of the most long suffering ever. And some of the most patient. But I am afraid almost ever fan I know has lost patience with LJ. Performing for 70 minutes in a 90 minute match is not good enough. And it's not just luck we keep losing to late goals. It's bad team selections, confusing tactics, constantly changing formations, and poor substitutions. The buck has to stop somewhere and it stops with him. He has to go if we are to have a fighting chance of staying up.

And the irony is not lost on me that we have gone from Cotterill who would never change team or formation, despite that everyone could see it wasn't working, to a situation where the team selection appears to be done by Camelot with about as much chance of most of us picking the right 11 numbers each week. Talk about veering wildly from one extreme to the other!

Do you honestly believe team selection and formation is just done randomly? 

What I know of our set up is due diligence is done on the Away team and we Try to set up to counter their threats. I would prefer it if we set up a certain why and tried to impose our game on opponents but then what do I know about football? 

We have had horrible luck with injuries and have been blessed with officials who wouldn't be out of place in the Sunday league.

Correction, we are not losing to bad team selections etc. We are losing because the players are terrorfied of hanging on to a lead. Maybe just maybe they are scared people like you will turn against them if we lose?

[RumRed]

2 minutes ago, Up The City! said:

Do you honestly believe team selection and formation is just done randomly? 

What I know of our set up is due diligence is done on the Away team and we Try to set up to counter their threats. I would prefer it if we set up a certain why and tried to impose our game on opponents but then what do I know about football? 

We have had horrible luck with injuries and have been blessed with officials who wouldn't be out of place in the Sunday league.

Correction, we are not losing to bad team selections etc. We are losing because the players are terrorfied of hanging on to a lead. Maybe just maybe they are scared people like you will turn against them if we lose?

So we're losing because they're scared of being criticised?  Suggest they're in the wrong job then.

[Gert Mare]

3 hours ago, JamesBCFC said:

What was arrogant about that? Other than financial reasons and serious rule breaking I can't think of any occasions a team outside the relegation zone was relegated, and I don't believe we have committed either of the above.

Our form right now is terrible, but as stated by many people over the weeks we are losing because of individual errors, not because we are being outplayed. We could very easily have won today's game 2-0- the guy who scored a brace shouldn't have been on the pitch and the second goal was a cumulation of players faffing around needlessly and gifting them the opportunity.

I firmly believe we will turn this around because the performances haven't been that bad- they haven't been great by any stretch, but they really haven't been that bad. People are letting their frustration at the results cloud that. Yes there are times where we are far too slow, times where we are too narrow or players don't make the runs they should, but what we have right now is an average Championship side, not a Champions League winning side. 

We have made what look to be 3 astute signings this month. It's early in their time here, but Djuric looked very good, Hegeler very good again and Wright looked assured other than one lapse.

Because of this things I believe we will turn this around under LJ, he is a young manager and learning, he will make mistakes too- he has done at times this season,  no-one will deny that, but he is in his 4th (5th?) season as a manager and has turned around 2 relegation battles before (albeit he didn't wasn't in charge when they became involved in the relegation fight) and if we win 2-3 in a row now and then settle into a more typical average sides form we won't be involved in one this year. If our form carries on as it is then we certainly will, but it's important to keep the old adage (or cliché) in mind "form is temporary". 

For me I think if we don't win any of the next 5 then perhaps LJ will have to go, but I'd still be in two minds. What is the point of building a project with a long term goal if you panic at the first time there's a struggle? 

It's not just a blip. It's a 1/3rd of a season with just 2 wins. The first sign was months ago. This is like the end of the film Zulu where the Welsh bloke tries to sing!

[Up The City!]

7 minutes ago, RumRed said:

So we're losing because they're scared of being criticised?  Suggest they're in the wrong job then.

Yep I thinj the pressure gets to them.

[Gert Mare]

2 minutes ago, Up The City! said:

Yep I thinj the pressure gets to them.

The right DNA then?

[Up The City!]

12 minutes ago, Cheesleysmate said:

The right DNA then?

Not atm no. We have a very inexperienced team and they need to learn fast. Going forward tho whoever are manager may be, be it LJ or someone else these players will become better players because of this bad run.

[handsofclay]

4 hours ago, Portland Bill said:

You mentioned the 3 relegations on a row and were basically saying how deflated we all were, but we stuck by the club because we were/are supporters. 

As far as I'm concerned you were talking about our 4th division days.

The signings you mention, Perty Jauntemann ( I know the spelling is wrong but it's 30 years since I thought of him!) the Fin, and Tony Fitzpatrick ( 250k) were definitely when we were in the 1st division, and actually doing well for in that league. 

Jan Moller came a season or two afterwards ( only because Bobby Houghton had him at Malmo) as did big Mick Hartford. 

The money spent on these players doesn't compare with spending 2-3 million on a striker whose played about an hour in 6 months, and ( possibly)  our record signing from Bournemouth in the summer, both of whom sat on the bench today. How can a Bristol City manager be allowed to spend that much money and then consider these players not good enough to fit into his system, it's beyond belief.

Regarding the money on today's  bench, we had approximately £8 million sat there, all LJ signings, not bad for a club who today equaled our worst ever run of defeats. 

I stated that we had three relegations on the spin, I did not point to one season in particular. Mick Harford was signed at the start of our Division 3 season which seen the last of those relegations for 150 grand, a whopping amount for a third tier side to splash out in those days. Fitzpatrick and Moller were constituents of the side that were relegated from Division Two and Moller continued into the next tier. You stated that during the slide City didn't have a penny to spend on quality signings. You are concentrating on the February to April 1982 bit, the last three months of the slide. I was referring to the whole three seasons of the slide which included losing our top flight status during which time Fitzpatrick was purchased for a quarter of a million and we made a 400 grand bid, not far off the transfer fee record, for Gerry Francis. Allied to this we also signed our established top flight players on long contracts, one of them being an 11 year contract.

 

[Fordy62]

3 hours ago, Up The City! said:

Do you honestly believe team selection and formation is just done randomly? 

Well, we played a winger in the hole today as well as the combative midfielder we've all being crying out for at centre half. Last week we played a RB at CB and our best player is getting nowhere near the team. So anyone suggesting it's done at random is pretty well grounded to be honest.

We have had horrible luck with injuries and have been blessed with officials who wouldn't be out of place in the Sunday league.

Injuries, really? I think given the number of people in the squad we've been fairly lucky injury wise. In fact I can really only think of Korey as a long termer. As for blaming the ref, you're taking blind faith to a new level.

Correction, we are not losing to bad team selections etc.

Yes we are.

We are losing because the players are terrorfied of hanging on to a lead. Maybe just maybe they are scared people like you will turn against them if we lose?

so this isn't the managers job to deal with then?