Get With It

[JamesBCFC]

45 minutes ago, Fordy62 said:

Do you honestly believe team selection and formation is just done randomly? 

Well, we played a winger in the hole today as well as the combative midfielder we've all being crying out for at centre half. Last week we played a RB at CB and our best player is getting nowhere near the team. So anyone suggesting it's done at random is pretty well grounded to be honest.

We played a RB at CB when there were no other options, the only person was Moore who was on the verge of signing for Bury on loan and given that him playing regularly is very important for us and his development it was important he didn't get a silly injury. 

Who is getting nowhere near the team? Tammy is starting and Tomlin (who I think you are referring to) has failed to start on 2-3 occasions all season, far from "getting nowhere near the team.

In fact not starting him in yesterdays game and the Reading one are both very justifiable decisions. Against Reading the game plan we used worked  exactly how we wanted for 70 minutes, and Tomlin himself agreed hat it was the right decision not to start him.

As for yesterday, that was not a game to play him, unless you wanted him suspended for a few games afterwards as his temper would no doubt have been targeted by Colin.

As for Hegeler at CB. He was good enough at CB for a side 3rd in the Bundesliga and was for many of their fans the MOTM in his 2 starts this season, both at CB. There is nothing wrong with him being at CB when we have little other choice because of Magnussons injury.

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We have had horrible luck with injuries and have been blessed with officials who wouldn't be out of place in the Sunday league.

Injuries, really? I think given the number of people in the squad we've been fairly lucky injury wise. In fact I can really only think of Korey as a long termer. As for blaming the ref, you're taking blind faith to a new level.

We haven't had a dreadful number of injuries, but we have lost our best CB for a while, had recurring injuries and stupid mistakes from our goalkeepers, and had our best RB continually struggle with them. 

Asserting criticisms to the ref isn't blind faith when the referee does a dreadful job. Can't blame the referee in every game or for every goal we concede by any stretch, but there have been multiple occasions where the referees have had a huge impact on our results, yesterday Cardiff had 2 goals scored by someone who should not have been on the pitch, Reading away, the penalty, the non-penalty, the 'offside' goal, etc.

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Correction, we are not losing to bad team selections etc.

Yes we are.

No we aren't

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We are losing because the players are terrorfied of hanging on to a lead. Maybe just maybe they are scared people like you will turn against them if we lose?

so this isn't the managers job to deal with then?

Yes it is, but they weren't terrified at the start of the season, nor were the fans immediately on someones back after the slightest error (Little aside). These mental issues aren't a long running problem, so yes it is the managers job to deal with it, but he hasn't had any time to deal with it.

What they need right now is our support, something they aren't getting a huge amount of right now.

Yesterday the atmosphere was better than normal, but most of the noise from the crowd wasn't cheering our team on, or even putting Cardiff down, but telling Warnock to **** off.

 

[BobBobSuperBob]

6 hours ago, Up The City! said:

My opinion is if your going to embark on a project then you need to believe in that project 100% and back that project. Rome wasn't built in a day and all that shit. 

Its no good only backing a project when that project is doing well. Even when times are hard belief in that project must remain 

If there was no positive signs of this project one day bearing fruit I'd be right at the front of the queue calling for his head.

All very nice but I think you may find the people who walk onto the pitch don't actually believe in the manager currently delivering the front end / crucial part of the 'project'

In my experience people who have to regularly remind the masses that ' there's a project going on' normally do so because current performance is poor.......

 

[Red Exile]

James, I wish I'd had whatever you've had for breakfast! I see no cause for optimism on the LJ front, hard as I've looked throughout this season. He's leading a side which is developing an almost unrivalled talent for snatching defeat from the jaws of victory....which given that this has long been a hallmark of Bristol City is no mean feat...but not what I travel over a hundred of miles every other week to watch...to say nothing of away matches on a damp night in Sheffield...

Yet despite that no one could accuse the Ashton Gate crowd of turning on the players. 19k turned up yesterday to support a side on the worst run in its history. Barely a squeak of complaint until the final whistle. In my eyes the efforts of the majority of the players can't be faulted, what they lack is confidence...or perhaps talent...or perhaps organisational structure...which it's up to the manager/chief coach to tackle.

[Gert Mare]

4 hours ago, handsofclay said:

I stated that we had three relegations on the spin, I did not point to one season in particular. Mick Harford was signed at the start of our Division 3 season which seen the last of those relegations for 150 grand, a whopping amount for a third tier side to splash out in those days. Fitzpatrick and Moller were constituents of the side that were relegated from Division Two and Moller continued into the next tier. You stated that during the slide City didn't have a penny to spend on quality signings. You are concentrating on the February to April 1982 bit, the last three months of the slide. I was referring to the whole three seasons of the slide which included losing our top flight status during which time Fitzpatrick was purchased for a quarter of a million and we made a 400 grand bid, not far off the transfer fee record, for Gerry Francis. Allied to this we also signed our established top flight players on long contracts, one of them being an 11 year contract.

 

I don't think we actually paid up for Harford until we sold him?

[BS4 on Tour...]

12 hours ago, handsofclay said:

We didn't have a penny to spend on quality signings!!!! You are getting 1982-83 mixed up with 1980-1983 the period I quoted. During 1980-83 we purchased the Sweden number one goalkeeper who had played in the European Cup final just a handful of games earlier, one of the most expensive signings from a Scottish club, Tony Fitzpatrick from At Mitten, a Finnish international midfielder, made a 400 grand bid for Gerry Francis when the transfer record was about 500 grand and signed Mick Hartford for about five times more than any other club in our division could dream of outlaying.

As for the most expensive bench in our history, seeing that there were no subs at all until 1967 and then only one sub until the mid 1980s I think this is a rather dubious claim. For instance, I venture that in ten years from now even if only average players and youth teamers occupy our bench their value would exceed the value on the bench today.  

Tony Fitzpatrick and Pertti Jantunen both joined us before 1980...

[handsofclay]

13 minutes ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

Tony Fitzpatrick and Pertti Jantunen both joined us before 1980...

Tony Fitzpatrick and Pertti Jantunen both joined us in the 1979-80 season, the season we were relegated from the top flight. I stated 1980 because the relegation occurred in April 1980 the season having started in August 1979. I was responding to Portland Bill who stated we hadn't spent a penny on any quality signings in the three consecutive seasons we were relegated. I threw in the names of Moller, Fitzpatrick, Jantunen and Harford to show that that wasn't the case. Indeed, Terry Boyle, the Welsh international defender was acquired during this period in a swap for Kevin Mabbutt.

 

[handsofclay]

14 hours ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Having recruited nigh on 20 players at a cost of £?????? !!!!!

There was pretty well uniform agreement on here when clubs in League One accused us of buying our way to the League One title that we were actually still in profit from the sale of Sam Baldock so we hadn't really spent anything at all. Why then does this not apply to LJ this season as we are now, despite his signings, massively in profit due to monies received for Kodjia, Bolasie, Agard and Ayling! There is a lot of hypocrisy displayed on this forum.

[GodEmperor Palpatine]

1 hour ago, handsofclay said:

There was pretty well uniform agreement on here when clubs in League One accused us of buying our way to the League One title that we were actually still in profit from the sale of Sam Baldock so we hadn't really spent anything at all. Why then does this not apply to LJ this season as we are now, despite his signings, massively in profit due to monies received for Kodjia, Bolasie, Agard and Ayling! There is a lot of hypocrisy displayed on this forum.

You shouldn't be surprised at the hypocrisy of this forum, it's having agendas against certain managers.

One thing that still makes me laugh is that posters were going ape at SOD and now LJ over individual player errors but when players under SC done exactly the same thing they were then blaming the players while the manager was absolved. It's either one or the other guys and personally think the manager is blameless regarding players instant thinking.

For the record I'm in the unsure group regarding LJ but I still would like him to succeed as in turn the club succeeds. If he goes, he goes but the abuse from fans here and across social media is not warranted

[Up The City!]

4 hours ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

All very nice but I think you may find the people who walk onto the pitch don't actually believe in the manager currently delivering the front end / crucial part of the 'project'

In my experience people who have to regularly remind the masses that ' there's a project going on' normally do so because current performance is poor.......

 

So for 70 minutes or so they firmly believe in the project and have faith in the manager but then suddenly despite winning they collectively decide that they no longer believe in it and lose faith with their head coach?

[BobBobSuperBob]

24 minutes ago, Up The City! said:

So for 70 minutes or so they firmly believe in the project and have faith in the manager but then suddenly despite winning they collectively decide that they no longer believe in it and lose faith with their head coach?

Not referring to most of the starting eleven yesterday !!! ( Made up of a combination of younger players who are less likely to be openly rebellious , newbies who are also less likely at this stage, a few who keep their heads down and maybe one or two that aren't sold by him but who he has little option but to play

Start looking outside yesterday's starters and you may quickly run thin of viable options who are 'behind him'

Hope that explains it better

IMHO

[Up The City!]

25 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Not referring to most of the starting eleven yesterday !!! ( Made up of a combination of younger players who are less likely to be openly rebellious , newbies who are also less likely at this stage, a few who keep their heads down and maybe one or two that aren't sold by him but who he has little option but to play

Start looking outside yesterday's starters and you may quickly run thin of viable options who are 'behind him'

Hope that explains it better

IMHO

Oh ffs we get this every single time, with every single manager. I think it's just people like you trying to find a reason for this poor form.

[BobBobSuperBob]

13 minutes ago, Up The City! said:

Oh ffs we get this every single time, with every single manager. I think it's just people like you trying to find a reason for this poor form.

Well don't bother asking then

im sure you can explain the poor form ... oh yes '..........  'we are only losing by the odd goal 'and 'the 11 defeats in 12 could have been 11 wins' wasn't it ?

Brilliant !!!!

[Up The City!]

6 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Well don't bother asking then

im sure you can explain the poor form ... oh yes 'we are only losing by the odd goal 'and 'the 11 defeats in 12 could have been 11 wins'

Brilliant !!!!

But you wouldn't be complaining if it was flipped and the luck in each if those games went our way and we won 11 games by the odd goal.

The form for 70 minutes is really good. We just implode after that. That I can't explain. Fear? Pressure? I just don't know and that is what is so frustrating. 

Will changing manager stop these players imposing after 70 minutes? I'm not quite sure it would.

LJ doesn't go without criticism from me, I wouldn't have taken MD off as he was having a good game and I would have brought Tomlin on 10 minutes sooner.

[handsofclay]

42 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Well don't bother asking then

im sure you can explain the poor form ... oh yes '..........  'we are only losing by the odd goal 'and 'the 11 defeats in 12 could have been 11 wins' wasn't it ?

Brilliant !!!!

I am the poster who stated that we are only losing by the odd goal. I did not ever state that I was happy with that or the players could be excused for it. I simply implied that at least it meant that in every one of the losing games we had been competitive. We have had a chance right up to the final whistle. When was the last time, at this level, where we have been competitive in every single game? One would surely have to go back to 1975-76 to make such a claim. There have been many seasons where we have been thoroughly trounced in home and away matches several times in the season. It is by fine margins we are losing each time and had the referee at Reading been competent at his job we wouldn't be talking about this run of defeats now. I am trying to be positive and state that surely we are just a few tweaks away from turning those fine margins in our favour. I would be pessimistic if we were on the wrong end of stuffings as that shows a heck of a lot needs to be addressed.

Someone earlier stated that a corpse is still a corpse whether the victim has been stabbed once or 16 times. Yes, I agree. However, I bet you have all heard of Jack the Ripper and Charles Manson. They engendered fear in London and LA by the total savagery of the crimes they committed. Their victims were Annihilated. One could say deliberately humiliated. I doubt very much if poor Sharon Tate had been stabbed just the once and killed that she would be remembered today or her killers. Instead she was butchered, the fact she was almost full term with her pregnancy adding to the distaste and a word written in her blood.

Whenever a manager gets the push we recall those games where we were humiliated. Wolves and Leicester at home with McInnes, Cardiff home with Johnson snr, Wolves at home and Bradford away under Benny. We rarely recall narrow defeats. It doesn't sit well with the narrative.

 

[BobBobSuperBob]

11 minutes ago, handsofclay said:

Someone earlier stated that a corpse is still a corpse whether the victim has been stabbed once or 16 times. Yes, I agree. However, I bet you have all heard of Jack the Ripper and Charles Manson. They engendered fear in London and LA by the total savagery of the crimes they committed. Their victims were Annihilated. One could say deliberately humiliated. I doubt very much if poor Sharon Tate had been stabbed just the once and killed that she would be remembered today or her killers. Instead she was butchered, the fact she was almost full term with her pregnancy adding to the distaste and a word written in her blood.

 

With due respect

What are you on about ?

[handsofclay]

19 hours ago, Midlands Robin said:

It doesn't matter of the police find the corpse has been stabbed through the heart once or 16 times, it's still a corpse.

As for the 'grow a backbone' and likening it to D-Day. Slight over reaction I think. I don't see 42 Commando Royal Marines about to land in the South Stand Car Park anytime soon.

I was replying to this with regards to my explanation of why it does matter, to society,  if a corpse has been stabbed repeatedly, and thus suffered humiliation just as it matters to us if we are on the end of a stuffing or a narrow defeat. Yes the points return is still zero but to state that they are viewed the same is not right. I do apologise if my argument goes above the heads of some on here.

Incidentally, with regards to the above post at no time did I mention D-Day! 

[handsofclay]

34 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

With due respect

What are you on about ?

See above post, sorry I should've quoted the post I was responding to rather than just referring to it. 

[Midlands Robin]

2 minutes ago, handsofclay said:

Incidentally, with regards to the above post at no time did I mention D-Day! 

Sorry, I went back and read that part again, you actually equated kit to men going over the top in the trenches. My point still stands, the two aren't even in the same league. My great grandfather spent 5 weeks in a field hospital in France before eventually passing away due to his wounds. Not sure how my reaction positive or otherwise to City's recent performances of those of LJ are supposed to be equated to that?

[handsofclay]

3 minutes ago, Midlands Robin said:

Sorry, I went back and read that part again, you actually equated kit to men going over the top in the trenches. My point still stands, the two aren't even in the same league. My great grandfather spent 5 weeks in a field hospital in France before eventually passing away due to his wounds. Not sure how my reaction positive or otherwise to City's recent performances of those of LJ are supposed to be equated to that?

Sorry about your great grandfather. My grandfather was wounded in the conflict and my grandmother's first husband died aged 21 in the trenches. I equated what is happening now with those times because I was appealing to the doom and gloom merchants to take it on the chin and get behind our team. Had our brave lads in the trenches been doom and gloom defeatists and panicked after a few narrow setbacks then the conflict would've been lost. I was appealing for a certain stoicism to prevail.

I am not happy with what is occurring but we either get behind the project and hopefully see it provide dividend or we panic at these narrow setbacks and have no chance of returning any dividend at all. Sticking the boot in does no good at all.

[Up The City!]

2 hours ago, handsofclay said:

I am the poster who stated that we are only losing by the odd goal. I did not ever state that I was happy with that or the players could be excused for it. I simply implied that at least it meant that in every one of the losing games we had been competitive. We have had a chance right up to the final whistle. When was the last time, at this level, where we have been competitive in every single game? One would surely have to go back to 1975-76 to make such a claim. There have been many seasons where we have been thoroughly trounced in home and away matches several times in the season. It is by fine margins we are losing each time and had the referee at Reading been competent at his job we wouldn't be talking about this run of defeats now. I am trying to be positive and state that surely we are just a few tweaks away from turning those fine margins in our favour. I would be pessimistic if we were on the wrong end of stuffings as that shows a heck of a lot needs to be addressed.

Someone earlier stated that a corpse is still a corpse whether the victim has been stabbed once or 16 times. Yes, I agree. However, I bet you have all heard of Jack the Ripper and Charles Manson. They engendered fear in London and LA by the total savagery of the crimes they committed. Their victims were Annihilated. One could say deliberately humiliated. I doubt very much if poor Sharon Tate had been stabbed just the once and killed that she would be remembered today or her killers. Instead she was butchered, the fact she was almost full term with her pregnancy adding to the distaste and a word written in her blood.

Whenever a manager gets the push we recall those games where we were humiliated. Wolves and Leicester at home with McInnes, Cardiff home with Johnson snr, Wolves at home and Bradford away under Benny. We rarely recall narrow defeats. It doesn't sit well with the narrative.

 

This is precisely how I feel. Its just incredibly frustrating because as you say we are competitive. I mentioned yesterday this could  have been 10 wins with the rub of rhe green but got laughed at.

I think it's very easy to look at the losing run and to jump to the opinion that LJ should leave but if one looks closely at each game then it shows the margins are so tiny. 

In each of these games I.can at least pick out one incident where the ref has made a huge mistake. That's not me looking for an excuse it's the obvious truth and that could be the small margins we are talking about that make all the difference.

Almost everything has gone against us this season, we get no protection from the refs so no wonder our confidence is shot.  

[handsofclay]

6 minutes ago, Up The City! said:

This is precisely how I feel. Its just incredibly frustrating because as you say we are competitive. I mentioned yesterday this could  have been 10 wins with the rub of rhe green but got laughed at.

I think it's very easy to look at the losing run and to jump to the opinion that LJ should leave but if one looks closely at each game then it shows the margins are so tiny. 

In each of these games I.can at least pick out one incident where the ref has made a huge mistake. That's not me looking for an excuse it's the obvious truth and that could be the small margins we are talking about that make all the difference.

Almost everything has gone against us this season, we get no protection from the refs so no wonder our confidence is shot.  

As you say it is little wonder our confidence is shot and then it doesn't help when so say supporters come on here slagging the manager off and in the next breath stating that the players have no confidence in the manager!

They have laughed at me too, although there are an awful lot who support our views too judged by the amount of likes my original post generated. Yet, surely if these mockers were honest they would admit that getting trounced in a match is far worse than a narrow defeat even if both outcomes receive the same no points. We have not been trounced at all this season or even come close to it. We haven't been able to say that about Bristol City at this level for decades.

[handsofclay]

Incidentally, I have made the point in the last two sentences above a few times now but none who have mocked have answered or acknowledged it yet. It simply doesn't fit in with their agenda which is to be totally negative.

[REDOXO]

22 hours ago, Chairman Mao said:

League form: LLLWLLLLLLL

Time to get with it, he is a busted flush. 

It is in fact LLLLWLLLLLLL. OFFICIALLY EQUALING our all time worst. This is not a case of an AD comparison from 50 years ago. He had bugger all. This is abject failure. But I know you know that!

[Up The City!]

6 minutes ago, handsofclay said:

As you say it is little wonder our confidence is shot and then it doesn't help when so say supporters come on here slagging the manager off and in the next breath stating that the players have no confidence in the manager!

They have laughed at me too, although there are an awful lot who support our views too judged by the amount of likes my original post generated. Yet, surely if these mockers were honest they would admit that getting trounced in a match is far worse than a narrow defeat even if both outcomes receive the same no points. We have not been trounced at all this season or even come close to it. We haven't been able to say that about Bristol City at this level for decades.

Although I'm not happy with the bad run I am happy that every game I have been to this season I have felt we can win this. As you say its been a long time since we have been able to say that. Our performances further convince me of that until the last 20 minutes. 

The only game we were well beaten was the Brighton game and up until their freak goal we dominated the game. 

I may be backing the wrong horse but I'm convinced if we get one win from somewhere then I firmly believe we will go on a undefeated run.

This season isn't like any of the others where we have been relegated. We have a very good young team (although maybe a little light on numbers) that areplaying quite well. 

[IAmNick]

4 hours ago, Up The City! said:

But you wouldn't be complaining if it was flipped and the luck in each if those games went our way and we won 11 games by the odd goal.

The form for 70 minutes is really good. We just implode after that. That I can't explain. Fear? Pressure? I just don't know and that is what is so frustrating. 

Will changing manager stop these players imposing after 70 minutes? I'm not quite sure it would.

LJ doesn't go without criticism from me, I wouldn't have taken MD off as he was having a good game and I would have brought Tomlin on 10 minutes sooner.

Do you not consider that often 60-70mins + is when the game management really kicks in. Managers add/remove players, or change tactics drastically to hold or attack the game etc.

Maybe we are doing especially poorly at the end of the games because the person in charge of managing this last period for us is consistently making decisions which affect us negatively there? I can think of a few instances recently (Reading comes most easily to mind) where opposing managers changes have really swung the game - and ours have done the opposite, and seemed to disrupt our flow or worse.

[exAtyeoMax]

17 hours ago, Up The City! said:

My opinion is if your going to embark on a project then you need to believe in that project 100% and back that project. Rome wasn't built in a day and all that shit. 

Its no good only backing a project when that project is doing well. Even when times are hard belief in that project must remain 

If there was no positive signs of this project one day bearing fruit I'd be right at the front of the queue calling for his head.

but it's not unusual to get in a new project manager, is it? It doesn't mean that the project has been shelved, just that it is taken forward by someone else. 

[WestonRobin]

1 hour ago, REDOXO said:

It is in fact LLLLWLLLLLLL. OFFICIALLY EQUALING our all time worst. This is not a case of an AD comparison from 50 years ago. He had bugger all. This is abject failure. But I know you know that!

Is it?

Shouldn't the L you've added be a D? Before the win against Ipswich we lost at Reading and Birmingham plus at home to Brighton. The game before that was Barnsley away and that finished 2-2.

I know this does absolutely nothing to alter the fact we've lost 7 league games on the trot - 4 of those at home - which is just inexcusable.

[Up The City!]

1 hour ago, IAmNick said:

Do you not consider that often 60-70mins + is when the game management really kicks in. Managers add/remove players, or change tactics drastically to hold or attack the game etc.

Maybe we are doing especially poorly at the end of the games because the person in charge of managing this last period for us is consistently making decisions which affect us negatively there? I can think of a few instances recently (Reading comes most easily to mind) where opposing managers changes have really swung the game - and ours have done the opposite, and seemed to disrupt our flow or worse.

This has so far been my only criticism of LJ. I would have brought Lt on earlier and kept MD on.

12 minutes ago, exAtyeoMax said:

but it's not unusual to get in a new project manager, is it? It doesn't mean that the project has been shelved, just that it is taken forward by someone else. 

The problem with us is when we sack a manager the project does get shelved and we need to start again.

[exAtyeoMax]

1 minute ago, Up The City! said:

This has so far been my only criticism of LJ. I would have brought Lt on earlier and kept MD on.

The problem with us is when we sack a manager the project does get shelved and we need to start again.

would that happen this time, though? They aren't going to get rid of MA or change the management structure

[shelts]

It's not all doom and gloom. We're three points off the the relegation places . We have a lovely stadium. A wealthy owner. Well paid happy players.