Our Defenders; Standing Off The Opposition

[RedM]

46 minutes ago, deadredfred said:

Im glad someone else noticed and brought this up. 

I wasn't at the match so avoided 'highlights' as long as I could before curiosity beat me. 

I must have re-watched their third goal 10 times and for the life of me I cannot fathom what Brownhill was attempting. He actively got out the way of the Cardiff player to open up the space to shoot via a cuddle with the ref. He'd have been more effective had he just layed down on the turf in front of him. 

I think he was just ran ragged.  He seemed to be attempting to cover for another player who was no where in sight. It would be harsh to lay all the blame on him as he was one of the few bright sparks until then. But it was a bad mistake by a fading player. Coaching staff should have noticed,and acted, on how much Cardiff were pushing our under pressure players.

[Cowshed]

1 hour ago, spudski said:

In answer to your first two paragraphs mate... Even when we were wining games at the start of the season, we could all see frailties, cracks appearing.

I believe LJ also saw that, and felt the need we needed to change. It's like we've had to take a step back to take two steps forward again. I believe we are in for want of a better word 'transition' again.

We were winning playing expansive football, but way too open. It doesn't make sense to many to change, when you're winning, but like I said, cracks were appearing.

I believe LJ has tried to make us more structured and to keep in shape better.

In doing so, it's stifled our play a little as we haven't been so expansive. We've still created chances and scored. We have become much more structured and disciplined. Players are getting into position.

However...like I've said in numerous posts recently...even though we have got into positions defensively, certain individuals have made mistakes and errors and that has cost us.

Offensively...we are trying to also keep shape and not go gung ho...however in doing so, when playing possession football, you have to create angles and move off the ball.

This has improved with Duric up front and Hegeler in the team. Unfortunately certain other players are not doing this. Hence the ball coming sideways across the back again.

Watch Little and Bryan....they never leave the touchline. They are so easy to mark out of the game. If the ball comes inside at an angle to Brownhill or Odowda...then they have to move again...not stand still on the touchline or move in a straight line to the next defender. They have to find space for the next pass, for the move to continue. They don't...so what you see happen, is the ball played back again to the CB's.

This is why our football is so lethargic and painful to watch sometimes...it's the lack of movement. Look what happened when Bryan did actually do the right things. He scored a goal, as he came inside. He also provided a cross for the second when he actually came inside and took on his man to the bye line. When he does it properly, it works...but it's very rare.

I believe if we continue playing in the way LJ wants us too...then we could become a competitive and solid outfit. But we have to find new players that can do the job properly on a constant basis.

I believe LJ has alluded to this recently, in wanting to bring those types of players in during the January window.

I get the impression that he was hoping some of our lesser players were going to step up to the mark, and that we wait until the summer. His hand has been pushed it seems.

Until we get those players or others like GoN, Matthews and Smith get up to speed and fitness, then I think we will continue to struggle with the likes of Little, Bryan and FF playing in key positions.

As I pointed out...narrow, possession football has it's weaknesses. And the prime weakness is in the Fullback positions.

Again you are over critical of Joe Bryan.  Look through the last months goals. Joe Bryan has frequently made positive contributions. 

Unfortunately for Joe Bryan he is constantly shifted from opposition to position. Mr Johnson appears to think he is Phillip Lahm.

The lethargy of City's play is due to the balance of team selection. Mr Johnson's team selection. The wide players are not as at fault ad you. The ball arrives too slowly through the thirds, too many touches, too many players killing each others space by dropping.  Bryan is clearly playing  (peculiarly wide) to instruction to create width and space.

Edited January 17, 2017 by Cowshed

[Dr Balls]

21 minutes ago, RedM said:

I think he was just ran ragged.  He seemed to be attempting to cover for another player who was no where in sight. It would be harsh to lay all the blame on him as he was one of the few bright sparks until then. But it was a bad mistake by a fading player. Coaching staff should have noticed,and acted, on how much Cardiff were pushing our under pressure players.

Brownhill tiring was a large part of what went wrong at the end against Reading, plus going to 4-4-2 from 4-1-4-1, adding extra work for those left in midfield against fresh substitutes. He needed replacing  on both occasions st about 70 minutes but that didn't happen with the consequences of conceding late goals.

I am trying hard not to blame Brownhill himself because I think there is a potentially good player if he can progress appropriately and cuts out the silly mistakes like the back heel against Cardiff. I just don't think he can do 90 minutes at this level yet & LJ should also have realised that. Considering how many midfielders we have you would hope that we had a replacement somewhere on the bench who could come on earlier than after the opposition have already scored the winning goal.

We have to be able to play to 90 minutes. Until then we are risk of conceding late and losing by a single goal. And all compounded by the lack of confidence engendered by doing it again & again in the last 2-3 months.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

16 hours ago, havanatopia said:

It remains vivid in my memory from the Reading game and came home to roost once more when I saw those shocking goals against Cardiff; May I suggest to all those who have watched this turmoil unfold since early Nov (?) that there is something wrong in the head of our back line that smacks of useless or 'frankly I don't give a damn' or, that, with 'I want the little wretch fired so am gonna give their striker plenty of room'.

What I have seen in those two games, when the opposition have been bearing down on goal is nothing short of diabolical. I would go as far as to say i have not seen defending that bad. Actually I cannot remember worse defending since Forbes Phillipson Masters and at least he tried. 

Our back line are supposed to be decent professionals on thousands of pounds a week. I don't accept that they are not good enough. Look at the goals we are leaking across all of the matches and tell me if you see a pattern. The single goal smacks of managing losses.

I need to ask the question even if it sounds stupid; what on earth is going on?

To my mind they are not playing for the manager. That means its curtains for Lee.

Here is my prediction for the next 2 matches:-

Scrape through on penalties against Fleetwood against all the odds and then draw at Forest and that should be the end of that.

 

p.s. sorry mods.. this should be in general football chat. Please move.

Can't agree fully, the midfield back off and most wouldn't recognise an opposition midfield runner if he stopped to show his passport and that passport said occupation midfield runner, as the game goes on our midfield surrender a whole third of the pitch, they are the ones who shouldn't be backing off, they are the ones who should be putting their foot in and maybe even risking giving away free kicks in non dangerous positions by the time they reach our defence IMO the damage is already done and the defenders generally find themselves in a catch 22 position of giving dangerous free kicks aways or maybe even penalties.

What I will say is usually during the last 20 minutes of a game it becomes infectious and my question is why? and even more importantly why hasn't LJ been able to prevent this?.

if Hegeler plays tonight and again at the back, IMO LJ must have a death wish, there is absolutely no need for this at all.

 

[RedM]

3 minutes ago, Dr Balls said:

Brownhill tiring was a large part of what went wrong at the end against Reading, plus going to 4-4-2 from 4-1-4-1, adding extra work for those left in midfield against fresh substitutes. He needed replacing  on both occasions st about 70 minutes but that didn't happen with the consequences of conceding late goals.

I am trying hard not to blame Brownhill himself because I think there is a potentially good player if he can progress appropriately and cuts out the silly mistakes like the back heel against Cardiff. I just don't think he can do 90 minutes at this level yet & LJ should also have realised that. Considering how many midfielders we have you would hope that we had a replacement somewhere on the bench who could come on earlier than after the opposition have already scored the winning goal.

We have to be able to play to 90 minutes. Until then we are risk of conceding late and losing by a single goal. And all compounded by the lack of confidence engendered by doing it again & again in the last 2-3 months.

Totally agree. Well said.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

10 hours ago, spudski said:

Certain players are playing with fear mate.

They don't back off when we are going trying to score. They back off when we are fearful of conceding, either after scoring or protecting a lead towards the end of a game.

It's not intentional, or something being asked of them by LJ. In fact it's the opposite. I've heard LJ and Pembo, both shouting at the players to keep pressing towards the end of games.

The pressure is getting to some of these lads...and by backing off, some of them think sublimely they are giving themselves some time and room. Plus it seems, some don't want to take the responsibility.

I do however think that you should analyse a little closer and realise some of these players aren't good enough in certain positions at this level. Joe Bryan as Left back or wing back and Mark Little are two imo. Bryan is fine with the ball at his feet when offensively...but not good enough as a defender imo.

We've conceded so many goals this season, from players not stopping crosses coming over. Little and Bryan give way too much room...or 'dive in' and get beaten. They are not good enough and have been at fault for many of our losses this season. Their positional play offensively is also awful.

Another point, that I've also mentioned before. It's become apparent that LJ wants these players disciplined and keeping shape. They concentrate on moving into position...which they do. However...and this seems to be the biggest problem....they get into position and then think they've done enough. They switch off, and actually seem to forget, they have to do something in that position...not just stand there.

I get the impression that they are so focussed on keeping shape, that they've actually forgotten to play football. You have the other extreme...where Tomlin goes 'wandering' and loses shape...but actually plays football and try's to create something or tackle.

It's about being able to play football, create and defend properly when under pressure...just not when winning and feeling confident. Some of these lads can't hack the pressure...and their flaws are magnified even more.

So exactly why is it still happening?, pretty much since the 1st of October?, take the lead surrender territory and back off and lose, get an equaliser surrender territory and back off and lose, exactly why has this not been stopped by LJ and his coaching staff?, I would have thought 3 months + should be more than enough time to get their points over.

[Dr Balls]

13 minutes ago, Esmond Million's Bung said:

Can't agree fully, the midfield back off and most wouldn't recognise an opposition midfield runner if he stopped to show his passport and that passport said occupation midfield runner, as the game goes on our midfield surrender a whole third of the pitch, they are the ones who shouldn't be backing off, they are the ones who should be putting their foot in and maybe even risking giving away free kicks in non dangerous positions by the time they reach our defence IMO the damage is already done and the defenders generally find themselves in a catch 22 position of giving dangerous free kicks aways or maybe even penalties.

What I will say is usually during the last 20 minutes of a game it becomes infectious and my question is why? and even more importantly why hasn't LJ been able to prevent this?.

if Hegeler plays tonight and again at the back, IMO LJ must have a death wish, there is absolutely no need for this at all.

 

They fall back because they are tired. And they stop tracking back for the last 20 minutes. Because they are tired.

Agree about Hegeler - needs to be in midfield. And if Brownhill plays he needs substituting at 60 mins or so. Perhaps by GON so experience at the end of the game.

Hey but what do I know, I've only been watching football for over 40 years!

[spudski]

13 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Again you are over critical of Joe Bryan.  Look through the last months goals. Joe Bryan has frequently made positive contributions. 

Unfortunately for Joe Bryan he is constantly shifted from opposition to position. Mr Johnson appears to think he is Phillip Lahm.

The lethargy of City's play is due to the balance of team selection. Mr Johnson's team selection. The wide players are not as at fault ad you. The ball arrives too slowly through the thirds, too many touches, too many players killing each others space by dropping.  Bryan/Little are clearly playing to instruction to create width and space.

I agree...JB has made contribution going forward, it can improve still, but scoring isn't our problem.

Our problem is defending. And JB, Little, FF and RoD have made way too many mistakes. They may contribute other fine factors, but if it wasn't for their mistakes, we'd be doing a lot better imo.

Our team selection has often been down to key players being injured or loss of form. If everyone was fit right now and playing to the best of their ability we'd have a far better quality team...this is why selection has been random.

If we had a team in form and fit off FF ( better keeper ), Matthews, Flint, Wright, Magners, Hegeler, Smith, GoN, Tomlin, Duric, Tammy....do you think we'd be losing so much? I personally don't.

You say team selection is wrong...then you blame the players for taking too many touch's...and not creating space. So it's not the tactics...it's the players doing that!

Little and Bryan play wide...yes they do. But what has that to do with them making individual errors?

[Esmond Million's Bung]

Just now, Dr Balls said:

They fall back because they are tired. And they stop tracking back for the last 20 minutes. Because they are tired.

Agree about Hegeler - needs to be in midfield. And if Brownhill plays he needs substituting at 60 mins or so. Perhaps by GON so experience at the end of the game.

Hey but what do I know, I've only been watching football for over 40 years!

Why are they tired?, they are footballers/athletes FFS.

 

[Dr Balls]

9 minutes ago, Esmond Million's Bung said:

Why are they tired?, they are footballers/athletes FFS.

 

Because no one has worked on their endurance training? Don't ask me, ask the coaches. The midfielders should be able to run about 12 km per match, and be as good at the end as the beginning.

Perhaps a bit rich coming from a somewhat unfit spectator but most of these players have at least 20 if not 25 years on me. And they are supposed to be professionals. As is their head coach, who should know their weaknesses, and react accordingly!

[Cowshed]

18 hours ago, spudski said:

I agree...JB has made contribution going forward, it can improve still, but scoring isn't our problem.

Our problem is defending. And JB, Little, FF and RoD have made way too many mistakes. They may contribute other fine factors, but if it wasn't for their mistakes, we'd be doing a lot better imo.

Our team selection has often been down to key players being injured or loss of form. If everyone was fit right now and playing to the best of their ability we'd have a far better quality team...this is why selection has been random.

If we had a team in form and fit off FF ( better keeper ), Matthews, Flint, Wright, Magners, Hegeler, Smith, GoN, Tomlin, Duric, Tammy....do you think we'd be losing so much? I personally don't.

You say team selection is wrong...then you blame the players for taking too many touch's...and not creating space. So it's not the tactics...it's the players doing that!

Little and Bryan play wide...yes they do. But what has that to do with them making individual errors?

A point I have made about errors is due to the sides lack of cohesion without the ball. A flaw of team selection and its changes x time in preparation.

Regarding touches, it is the Manager who should be setting the tempo of the side = Quick, simple, fast. It is the Managers selections/tactics which sees sides with several defensive minded midfield players killing each other's space. Indirectly Lee Tomlins frustration (your point) is also part of the same killing of space ... When he drops he closes down the teams options to move it quickly. City become congested, you do not need two and three players to do what one quick switch will.

That is a muddle of the Managers making.

In answer to your quesstion. A team with this much talent, this much money spent on it, with a rising  star worth tens of millions should be capable of more than three points out of??

And if Mr Johnson and his coaches sent them out better prepared, minus the constant tinkering I sincerely believe the wheels would not have fallen off this season as spectacularly as they have.

[JamesBCFC]

On 17/01/2017 at 09:41, Richard Head said:

Cardiff's penalty was due to brainless defending by Little. Another goal was weak marking by centre backs, none of whom got in position to challenge for the ball when it was crossed. The third was a combination of a defender (not sure which) failing to close the attacker down, turning his back as the shot came in (unforgiveable) and Frankie not being good enough or tall enough to reach the shot. So poor defending all round.

In fairness there was one defender who went to close down on the third goal, but the referee obstructed him. More should have been done though

[Fatalist]

I fully agree that we have been dropping back far too much, BUT I was encouraged last night. We pressed Fleetwood higher up the pitch. Duric ran himself into the ground, O'Neill kept waving men forward and with him and Hegeler in midfield, Fleetwood had nowhere to go and were often kept on the half way line. In the last few minutes, we went deep again, but overall it was much better. We never looked likely to concede - and remember we were in front for over 70 minutes. If we keep this formation and attitude, we could have a half decent team in the making.