Building on sand

[Major Isewater]

I believe that football clubs no longer have the time to build teams or develop youngsters for their first team .

The players seem to move on every two years and the managers the same . Instant success is demanded , the time not given.

There are many references to what Dicks did here but today it's not possible to keep a group of young players together.

Our brightest stars are poached by the bigger clubs and stockpiled .

Even Arsenal have problems keeping hold of their top players who demand trophies every year ( Not thinking that they hold any responsibility for failing to win them at the Emirates ) 

As a club , we are swimming against the tide .

 I wish it was possible but I fear it is already an outdated model .

 I don't care much for the modern ' game ' . 

The money is more important than the actual game itself .

[Strictly Obi]

10 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

I believe that football clubs no longer have the time to build teams or develop youngsters for their first team .

The players seem to move on every two years and the managers the same . Instant success is demanded , the time not given.

There are many references to what Dicks did here but today it's not possible to keep a group of young players together.

Our brightest stars are poached by the bigger clubs and stockpiled .

Even Arsenal have problems keeping hold of their top players who demand trophies every year ( Not thinking that they hold any responsibility for failing to win them at the Emirates ) 

As a club , we are swimming against the tide .

 I wish it was possible but I fear it is already an outdated model .

 I don't care much for the modern ' game ' . 

The money is more important than the actual game itself .

I agree with this to a point. But fear there is no alternative, other than paying the outlandish fee's for mediocre players and the over inflated wages that go with them! Ie how we've conducted our business in the past.

So unfortunately I think we need to continue to buy clever. Ie Jonathan Kodja. Try our best to keep them, but only sell if the price suits us! 

[Bat Fastard]

6 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

I believe that football clubs no longer have the time to build teams or develop youngsters for their first team .

The players seem to move on every two years and the managers the same . Instant success is demanded , the time not given.

There are many references to what Dicks did here but today it's not possible to keep a group of young players together.

Our brightest stars are poached by the bigger clubs and stockpiled .

Even Arsenal have problems keeping hold of their top players who demand trophies every year ( Not thinking that they hold any responsibility for failing to win them at the Emirates ) 

As a club , we are swimming against the tide .

 I wish it was possible but I fear it is already an outdated model .

 I don't care much for the modern ' game ' . 

The money is more important than the actual game itself .

What we need is an owner who will start a project to build a team on the back of a successful youth policy.  It would call for a young and enthusiastic head coach, who can grow into the role.  The problem is that a section of fans will start revolting if there were a few difficult times in making the project work. Can you imagine - some of them may even insult the man who bankrolls the project.  Who would believe such a thing possible?

[Strictly Obi]

3 minutes ago, Bat Fastard said:

What we need is an owner who will start a project to build a team on the back of a successful youth policy.  It would call for a young and enthusiastic head coach, who can grow into the role.  The problem is that a section of fans will start revolting if there were a few difficult times in making the project work. Can you imagine - some of them may even insult the man who bankrolls the project.  Who would believe such a thing possible?

I think this would be a great idea. But fear our fickle fans would not have the forsight to recognise a fantastic long term plan like this. So it will never happen unfortunately! 

[Welcome To The Jungle]

I think most fans would understand...but lets not forget that the message was Europa League in 5 years. Now I appreciate that this was tongue in cheek to an extent but if you tell people the plan, they'll be able to accept it.

[Bat Fastard]

1 minute ago, Welcome To The Jungle said:

I think most fans would understand...but lets not forget that the message was Europa League in 5 years. Now I appreciate that this was tongue in cheek to an extent but if you tell people the plan, they'll be able to accept it.

Ok it may take 6 or 7 years, but the overall plan would be good for the club - if it could be made to work.  We need a greater degree of patience and a bit of Robert the Bruce thinking!

[Portland Bill]

22 minutes ago, Bat Fastard said:

What we need is an owner who will start a project to build a team on the back of a successful youth policy.  It would call for a young and enthusiastic head coach, who can grow into the role.  The problem is that a section of fans will start revolting if there were a few difficult times in making the project work. Can you imagine - some of them may even insult the man who bankrolls the project.  Who would believe such a thing possible?

That's a great idea, just imagine if you had a good youth policy that would enable players to break through in to the first team. The problem is, at some clubs you may have a first team manager who would go out spend millions of pounds and buy 19 players.

These 19 players will ultimately block the pathway for these good youth players progressing to the first team, so basically the whole plan is totally flawed. Imagine if it happened at our club, the first team manager wouldn't last long would he............

[Bat Fastard]

3 minutes ago, Portland Bill said:

That's a great idea, just imagine if you had a good youth policy that would enable players to break through in to the first team. The problem is, at some clubs you may have a first team manager who would go out spend millions of pounds and buy 19 players.

These 19 players will ultimately block the pathway for these good youth players progressing to the first team, so basically the whole plan is totally flawed. Imagine if it happened at our club, the first team manager wouldn't last long would he............

Oh come on Bill - we do not have access to emergency loans any more and so we need to keep a large number of players. All the 20 year olds on the fringes of the squad this year, will start to come into their own next year.  We need players to cover injuries, loss of form (Matthews!) and other issues.  Every season is very long and, subject to league pressures, Lee has tried to give youth a chance.  He has no had much encouragement from the fans for trying to carry out his project with SL, which will eventually be very good for the fans.  Alan Dicks built a good young squad and that served us well at the time.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Seems to happen more in Europe, though even there unless the club is a big hitter in one of the top few Leagues there will get cherry picked.

• Sporting Lisbon- great academy, provided the backbone of Portugal side for many years- Portugal a small market, and not the richest country= players go
• Ajax- The classic example, produced so many great players over the years. Sell, sell sell!
• In more recent times, Feyenoord have had a pretty strong academy- again same problem.
• Atalanta look to have an excellent crop coming through- but a mid ranking Italian club won't keep them will they?
• Benfica seem to be bringing throiugh a strong crop but how many will they keep??
• Bilbao possibly- their Basque identity and all that but even they lose a few top ones.

Would say the only one who seem to build and have a regular flow of youth- and keep a large chunk- are obviously Barcelona and Bayern but they can easily afford it- AC Milan are hardly a small or middle club but rebuilding. The only one who fit neither the category of those above or mega club is Atletico- so it is extremely hard to keep said players, absolutely. Still I would like to see us develop with a strong youth setup.

[Roger Red Hat]

9 minutes ago, Portland Bill said:

That's a great idea, just imagine if you had a good youth policy that would enable players to break through in to the first team. The problem is, at some clubs you may have a first team manager who would go out spend millions of pounds and buy 19 players.

These 19 players will ultimately block the pathway for these good youth players progressing to the first team, so basically the whole plan is totally flawed. Imagine if it happened at our club, the first team manager wouldn't last long would he............

Imagine, if part of that plan was to maintain the status of the first team, and not treat it as secondary to a laudable but possibly failed project to develop sufficient young talent, because the huge majority of fans pay to go and support the first team.

Imagine, if you will, a team that gained huge momentum on the back of hugely successful season, only to sacrifice said momentum by appointing the incorrect people to carry out the primary task of maintaining the status of its first team.

Unimaginable isn't it?

............Errrr...

[Fiale]

If we get Cat one, suck up the local talent and have a team where we play say 6 or more of the first team players on match days are academy products - we could build on that, young players would come to us, we would give them a showcase/window - and yes we would lose some to larger clubs, but we would get to see the young talent as they start out before going onto better things elsewhere.

It could work, but it is not a instant success or premier League model, it might after a number of years be a decent mid Championship model, but there would be a lot of hurt for a good few years - would the fans accept such a thing ? I don't think they would, I would love to see something like it, Wessex area players all coming to us and proving themselves... but well - it would take balls and patience to implement.

[Roger Red Hat]

 

[CheddarReds]

It's possible to bring young players through while the manager changes, but you need the correct structure at the club.

For us, I think there's an argument that we are approaching the long term project with shortermism. We've bought in half a dozen u23s in the last couple transfer windows but if we really want to bring through young players we need to improve the academy facilities. We are a category 2 academy, but we are still sharing an unsecure facility with a college. What do you think that says to aspiring players and players who are having to decide between a Liverpool or a Bristol City? Upgrade the facility, improve the development, show a clear path from academy to first team, spend less money on punts for the u23s and have morel local lads produced. Hopefully I'm wrong and there's planning in the pipeline for a new academy facility I'm not aware of but that's where I'd look to invest for a real long term project if I was Lansdown.

[ooRya]

1 hour ago, Bat Fastard said:

What we need is an owner who will start a project to build a team on the back of a successful youth policy.  It would call for a young and enthusiastic head coach, who can grow into the role.  The problem is that a section of fans will start revolting if there were a few difficult times in making the project work. Can you imagine - some of them may even insult the man who bankrolls the project.  Who would believe such a thing possible?

Sadly I can only give this one "like".

[1bristolcity]

1 hour ago, Major Isewater said:

I believe that football clubs no longer have the time to build teams or develop youngsters for their first team .

The players seem to move on every two years and the managers the same . Instant success is demanded , the time not given.

There are many references to what Dicks did here but today it's not possible to keep a group of young players together.

Our brightest stars are poached by the bigger clubs and stockpiled .

Even Arsenal have problems keeping hold of their top players who demand trophies every year ( Not thinking that they hold any responsibility for failing to win them at the Emirates ) 

As a club , we are swimming against the tide .

 I wish it was possible but I fear it is already an outdated model .

 I don't care much for the modern ' game ' . 

The money is more important than the actual game itself .

Yep what we need is stability, and not change the head coach every week...but seriously I agree, look at Chelsea if you will, stock pile all the talent and then loan out, I mean what a disgrace, we should scrap all but 20 clubs and turn the rest into amateur football, and the 20 remaining can really corner the market....actually make that 8, the whole of the remaining 84 clubs are irrelevant according to SKY. 

[Sir Colby-Tit]

1 hour ago, Bat Fastard said:

What we need is an owner who will start a project to build a team on the back of a successful youth policy.  It would call for a young and enthusiastic head coach, who can grow into the role.  The problem is that a section of fans will start revolting if there were a few difficult times in making the project work. Can you imagine - some of them may even insult the man who bankrolls the project.  Who would believe such a thing possible?

I'm pretty certain SL's plan (which in theory was sound), didn't include relegation after giving the "young and enthusiastic head coach, who can grow into the role" £18m to spend on new players in his first full season.

LJ has been so inept this season that fans have every right to voice their dissatisfaction. It doesn't mean that they don't buy into the project, just that the wrong man is in place to manage the team.

[Bat Fastard]

1 minute ago, Sir Colby-Tit said:

I'm pretty certain SL's plan (which in theory was sound), didn't include relegation after giving the "young and enthusiastic head coach, who can grow into the role" £18m to spend on new players in his first full season.

LJ has been so inept this season that fans have every right to voice their dissatisfaction. It doesn't mean that they don't buy into the project, just that the wrong man is in place to manage the team.

As a very young head coach - maybe he is still growing in the role.  If given more time he may well have learned a great deal from this season.  Lets all hope that he succeeds!

[Sir Colby-Tit]

1 minute ago, Bat Fastard said:

As a very young head coach - maybe he is still growing in the role.  If given more time he may well have learned a great deal from this season.  Lets all hope that he succeeds!

If my Aunty had bollocks she'd be my Uncle!

Of course we all hope he succeeds, leads us to safety this season and then builds next year. Sadly, all the evidence to date suggests he doesn't know his arse from his elbow when it comes to managing/coaching.

Why does SL's plan necessarily require a young coach that can grow into the role. Why couldn't it work with an experienced coach?

[Strictly Obi]

1 hour ago, Portland Bill said:

That's a great idea, just imagine if you had a good youth policy that would enable players to break through in to the first team. The problem is, at some clubs you may have a first team manager who would go out spend millions of pounds and buy 19 players.

These 19 players will ultimately block the pathway for these good youth players progressing to the first team, so basically the whole plan is totally flawed. Imagine if it happened at our club, the first team manager wouldn't last long would he............

Ah but if the owner had faith in the first team manager, he might last longer than some would expect!  As long as the young player signee's were used to bridge the gap between the development u23's and the first team. Then this could actually work quite well in the long term. The problem once again would be the fickle few that would demand results today. And would probably start to make a string of personal insults against the manager or anyone else for that dares to disagree with them! 

[Bat Fastard]

2 minutes ago, Sir Colby-Tit said:

If my Aunty had bollocks she'd be my Uncle!

Of course we all hope he succeeds, leads us to safety this season and then builds next year. Sadly, all the evidence to date suggests he doesn't know his arse from his elbow when it comes to managing/coaching.

Why does SL's plan necessarily require a young coach that can grow into the role. Why couldn't it work with an experienced coach?

I had heard the rumours about your extended family! 

Maybe SL is trying to have a young team because it is cheaper and can be shaped over time to fit the purpose.  Nothing is perfect and no plan that involves people is going to be trouble free.  I'm sure that he keeps the situation under review.

[Roger Red Hat]

3 minutes ago, john from high littleton said:

Ah but if the owner had faith in the first team manager, he might last longer than some would expect!  As long as the young player signee's were used to bridge the gap between the development u23's and the first team. Then this could actually work quite well in the long term. The problem once again would be the fickle few that would demand results today. And would probably start to make a string of personal insults against the manager or anyone else for that matter that dares to disagree with them! 

Nobody's demanding results today, just competent stewardship of the first team. I don't think anybody can claim this to be the case.

[Portland Bill]

1 hour ago, Bat Fastard said:

Oh come on Bill - we do not have access to emergency loans any more and so we need to keep a large number of players. All the 20 year olds on the fringes of the squad this year, will start to come into their own next year.  We need players to cover injuries, loss of form (Matthews!) and other issues.  Every season is very long and, subject to league pressures, Lee has tried to give youth a chance.  He has no had much encouragement from the fans for trying to carry out his project with SL, which will eventually be very good for the fans.  Alan Dicks built a good young squad and that served us well at the time.

He has bought in 19 players!, plus another couple ( the young lad from Wrexham whose at Cheltenham being one of them). He then starts a game with THREE of the 19 players he's signed. Would you not agree that the fact he himself feels that 16 of his signings aren't good enough to start a game  is absolutely farcical. 

He's been given the riches that other managers can only dream about, he's used those riches so badly that he's guided us into a relegation battle. 

A lot of the signings are very good footballers, unfortunately he himself isn't capable of coaching these players into a team. A team with a style of play, the right tactics and the right shape, a team that can get us through 90 minutes of football without capitulating in 90% of games. 

[Sir Colby-Tit]

4 minutes ago, Bat Fastard said:

I had heard the rumours about your extended family! 

Maybe SL is trying to have a young team because it is cheaper and can be shaped over time to fit the purpose.  Nothing is perfect and no plan that involves people is going to be trouble free.  I'm sure that he keeps the situation under review.

Indeed, Uncle Sue said you still owe him a score from last time

Or maybe, SL wants to surround himself with family friends and "yes" men, who will not challenge his vision? Why would he decide to go for a cheap coach after spending £47m on the revamp and £18m on players, it makes no sense at all.

Your original post criticises the fans, and implies that SL should be immune to criticism because of his financial input. Both ridiculous, in my humble opinion.

[exAtyeoMax]

1 hour ago, Bat Fastard said:

What we need is an owner who will start a project to build a team on the back of a successful youth policy.  It would call for a young and enthusiastic head coach, who can grow into the role.  The problem is that a section of fans will start revolting if there were a few difficult times in making the project work. Can you imagine - some of them may even insult the man who bankrolls the project.  Who would believe such a thing possible?

It sounds like a fantastic idea if you were building from non-league/league two. The problems arise if you are trying to sustain Championship football. I guess next year, it will not be such an issue if we are in League One.

[Portland Bill]

11 minutes ago, john from high littleton said:

Ah but if the owner had faith in the first team manager, he might last longer than some would expect!  As long as the young player signee's were used to bridge the gap between the development u23's and the first team. Then this could actually work quite well in the long term. The problem once again would be the fickle few that would demand results today. And would probably start to make a string of personal insults against the manager or anyone else for that dares to disagree with them! 

Fickle? This poster has supported every manager ( except Pulis) to his last day with the club, yes, even SOD. Why, because I've always been one who wants a manager to be given adequate time in the job. 

The big difference with our current manager is, firstly he should never have been appointed, he had not earned the right to become a Championship manager, there was nothing to suggest he was/is capable of managing a club in the Championship. He was not even proven as a manager full stop. Our owner appointed him because he had played for us and that he liked him as a person, 100% the wrong reasons, as had been shown re Tinnion. LJ is out of his depth, the proof is there for all to see.

Also, and possibly even more important as far as I'm concerned is the actual football, it's terrible, probably the most boring negative football since Pulis, I'm not asking to win a game every couple of weeks, I would just like to watch my team play with some width and some style. Personally I can't enjoy the rubbish we are being served up with, perhaps that makes me and others 'fickle' in your eyes. Perhaps your actually enjoying what LJ is serving up, I'm not though.

[Bat Fastard]

43 minutes ago, Portland Bill said:

He has bought in 19 players!, plus another couple ( the young lad from Wrexham whose at Cheltenham being one of them). He then starts a game with THREE of the 19 players he's signed. Would you not agree that the fact he himself feels that 16 of his signings aren't good enough to start a game  is absolutely farcical. 

He's been given the riches that other managers can only dream about, he's used those riches so badly that he's guided us into a relegation battle. 

A lot of the signings are very good footballers, unfortunately he himself isn't capable of coaching these players into a team. A team with a style of play, the right tactics and the right shape, a team that can get us through 90 minutes of football without capitulating in 90% of games. 

Maybe things have not gone totally to plan - Matthews and a target man with a hernia and Tammy's injury.  It seems to me that we have too many young players for this season and that buying from overseas may be cheap, but it then takes time to get up to the speed of the Championship.  These lessons have hopefully been learned and we may be stronger for this in the future.

[Strictly Obi]

16 minutes ago, Portland Bill said:

Fickle? This poster has supported every manager ( except Pulis) to his last day with the club, yes, even SOD. Why, because I've always been one who wants a manager to be given adequate time in the job. 

The big difference with our current manager is, firstly he should never have been appointed, he had not earned the right to become a Championship manager, there was nothing to suggest he was/is capable of managing a club in the Championship. He was not even proven as a manager full stop. Our owner appointed him because he had played for us and that he liked him as a person, 100% the wrong reasons, as had been shown re Tinnion. LJ is out of his depth, the proof is there for all to see.

Also, and possibly even more important as far as I'm concerned is the actual football, it's terrible, probably the most boring negative football since Pulis, I'm not asking to win a game every couple of weeks, I would just like to watch my team play with some width and some style. Personally I can't enjoy the rubbish we are being served up with, perhaps that makes me and others 'fickle' in your eyes. Perhaps your actually enjoying what LJ is serving up, I'm not though.

Hi Bill,, when I first started up in my line of business I wasn't that great. I personally made a lot of mistakes, but I learnt from them. I could of so very easily gone under, but have since progressed little by little. And am now living quite a comfortable lifestyle thanks to hard work and perseverance. You seem to suggest that LJ should not be afforded the same time that any ordinary person like myself should get to make success out of a poor situation. He has been with the club little over a year. I am not sure any long term plan can be justified or denounced in that space of time. The alternative is what we have been doing for years. Which if you hadn't noticed, hasn't always been successful either!

[Bat Fastard]

4 minutes ago, john from high littleton said:

Hi Bill,, when I first started up in my line of business I wasn't that great. I personally made a lot of mistakes, but I learnt from them. I could of so very easily gone under, but have since progressed little by little. And am now living quite a comfortable lifestyle thanks to hard work and perseverance. You seem to suggest that LJ should not be afforded the same time that any ordinary person like myself should get to make success out of a poor situation. He has been with the club little over a year. I am not sure any long term plan can be justified or denounced in that space of time. The alternative is what we have been doing for years. Which if you hadn't noticed, hasn't always been successful either!

Spot on HL!

[Fiale]

12 minutes ago, john from high littleton said:

Hi Bill,, when I first started up in my line of business I wasn't that great. I personally made a lot of mistakes, but I learnt from them. I could of so very easily gone under, but have since progressed little by little. And am now living quite a comfortable lifestyle thanks to hard work and perseverance. You seem to suggest that LJ should not be afforded the same time that any ordinary person like myself should get to make success out of a poor situation. He has been with the club little over a year. I am not sure any long term plan can be justified or denounced in that space of time. The alternative is what we have been doing for years. Which if you hadn't noticed, hasn't always been successful either!

 

It was your own business, you were not hired to front a £60 million stadium, around £20 million player assets, plus the millions that the operation operates / costs most of which profit wise relies on first team success - this is not a job where someone unable to do the job and has to learn on the job is acceptable, and I can guarantee if one of your employees was failing and costing you money and bad reputation with no turn around in sight, you would sack them. LJ is in place for one reason alone, his relationship with SL. 

[oldstandrobin]

11 minutes ago, john from high littleton said:

Hi Bill,, when I first started up in my line of business I wasn't that great. I personally made a lot of mistakes, but I learnt from them. I could of so very easily gone under, but have since progressed little by little. And am now living quite a comfortable lifestyle thanks to hard work and perseverance. You seem to suggest that LJ should not be afforded the same time that any ordinary person like myself should get to make success out of a poor situation. He has been with the club little over a year. I am not sure any long term plan can be justified or denounced in that space of time. The alternative is what we have been doing for years. Which if you hadn't noticed, hasn't always been successful either!

Like you John, I did the same (from humble beginnings in Paulton) but this is modern day football. Did you treat your customers as idiots ( like MA not appearing on 20man and SL's mysterious Invisible Man status) cos I feel like a mushroom, did you keep salesmen on who didnt produce but drew a wage every week whilst you paid yourself nothing. I could go on but we saw the demise many many months ago and still the only move from the club was to let Pembo go. I could go on and on. BCFC in my book will continue to go round in circles for ever and getting nowhere. We havent got a 'right' to be succesfull and probably wont!! SL keeps trying to reinvent the wheel and sadly football wont allow it to happen. Sadly we wont bounce back from Lge 1 if we have Johnson in charge as to be honest his style of coaching is boring and unpredictable and really I am sick of watching dross at AG.