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Safe Standing (merged)


Kodjias Wrist

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So can't see anything on here regarding it for over a year now. Thought I would show this article about Argyles attempt to have safe standing implemented into the corners of thr stadium.

http://m.devonlive.com/plymouth-argyle-reveal-plans-to-bring-safe-standing-to-home-park/story-30364613-detail/story.html

I seen on the old plans that we had scope to introduce standing into the bottom tier of Dolman and South Stand. Anybody know the facts on this one?

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1 hour ago, Kodjias Wrist said:

So can't see anything on here regarding it for over a year now. Thought I would show this article about Argyles attempt to have safe standing implemented into the corners of thr stadium.

http://m.devonlive.com/plymouth-argyle-reveal-plans-to-bring-safe-standing-to-home-park/story-30364613-detail/story.html

I seen on the old plans that we had scope to introduce standing into the bottom tier of Dolman and South Stand. Anybody know the facts on this one?

Until the laws change it can't happen, fair play to Argyle; now (during an election) is the best time to be brining this up.

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Correct. It can't happen until the way in which the law is applied is changed.

It's good that Pymouth have become yet another club showing a concrete wish to install rail seating for safe standing as soon as it is allowed. The more clubs that show they are seriously looking to do this, the sooner the government will let them.

City remain keen, as far as I know. But could be a bit more public about their position.

In the EPL, both Spurs and Chelsea have made it known that their new stadia / redevelopments have been designed with rail seating in mind.

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On 04/06/2017 at 11:04, Blagdon red said:

Correct. It can't happen until the way in which the law is applied is changed.

It's good that Pymouth have become yet another club showing a concrete wish to install rail seating for safe standing as soon as it is allowed. The more clubs that show they are seriously looking to do this, the sooner the government will let them.

City remain keen, as far as I know. But could be a bit more public about their position.

In the EPL, both Spurs and Chelsea have made it known that their new stadia / redevelopments have been designed with rail seating in mind.

Haven't we also made it known that oir already redeveloped stadium has been designed to incorporate rail seating when it is allowed? 

I certainly remember hearing loads of quotes about this. 

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6 hours ago, Up The City! said:

Haven't we also made it known that oir already redeveloped stadium has been designed to incorporate rail seating when it is allowed? 

I certainly remember hearing loads of quotes about this. 

Yes, the front of the Dolman and back of the South Stand were designed with rail seating in mind.

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6 hours ago, Kodjias Wrist said:

It could improve the atmosphere significantly so I hope so. Adds more to the capacity as well so win.

Unlikely to add more to the capacity I'd have thought.  The seat is still required, you're essentially just allowed to stand in front of it is my understanding.

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1 hour ago, Steve Watts said:

Unlikely to add more to the capacity I'd have thought.  The seat is still required, you're essentially just allowed to stand in front of it is my understanding.

To start with, most likely.

Potentially a safe standing area can accommodate twice as many fans as a seated area.

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1 hour ago, Up The City! said:

To start with, most likely.

Potentially a safe standing area can accommodate twice as many fans as a seated area.

Correct, IF UK regs allow (which they may or may not) and IF the vomitories and concourse dimensions are adequate for an increased capacity. Spurs, for instance, have made their vomitories etc. large enough in their South Stand to cope with increased numbers. I don't believe City's architects had such foresight. For City, it could therefore be a challenge in that regard to increase the capacity, even if regs permit it in due course.

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57 minutes ago, Blagdon red said:

Correct, IF UK regs allow (which they may or may not) and IF the vomitories and concourse dimensions are adequate for an increased capacity. Spurs, for instance, have made their vomitories etc. large enough in their South Stand to cope with increased numbers. I don't believe City's architects had such foresight. For City, it could therefore be a challenge in that regard to increase the capacity, even if regs permit it in due course.

I personally think the vomitories aren't in a great place in the South Stand, and that the club would do well to consider some kind of staircase/exits at the back of the stand. Providing they can make it all look aesthetically pleasing.

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WBA have announced they are prepared to trial Safe Standing on one side of The Hawthorns for the Premiership. :clapping: Prem bosses have announced in turn they will now consult all twenty Prem teams regarding their views to Safe Standing. If they wish to go ahead with this, a change in legislation will be required.:grr:

Any chance of fans, ie paying spectators, being consulted? :fingerscrossed:

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Like us, even the Prem won't be able to go ahead until the government let them.

It is good, however, that the EPL are now finally asking their clubs for their views (4 years after the EFL did) and that clubs like WBA are responding by making it known that they would happily act as a pilot site if the Prem can get the go-ahead from Westminster.

Another positive step in the right direction. But not over the line yet.

 

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My suspicion is that it won't happen anytime soon, if at all.

I hope I am wrong- this is doubtless a positive step!

But my instincts tell me that CCTV + All seaters equals Perfect system for police and similar to monitor and pick out any troublemakers.

While this is the case, there will be no great push for a change in the law IMO. I remember these debates 10, even vaguely 15 years ago yet here we still are.

Sure it was even in late 90s also (an article from 98 references it, will see if I can find it online).

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Given the new interest in safe standing with the like of Notts County applying for it, would we be in a good position to apply for the lower Dolman and the new S82 corner? Given sight lines etc, those areas could be converted without affecting anyone elses' view.

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12 minutes ago, Blagdon red said:

You mean Shrewsbury, I believe.

As for City, there is no process by which they can currently apply to install rail seating. They could however, IMHO, make their support for this somewhat more public and current.

I do mean the Shrews, my bad. 

Out of interest Blagdon, why is it that they can apply with a completely new stadium and we cannot?

Thanks.

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15 hours ago, Blagdon red said:

You mean Shrewsbury, I believe.

As for City, there is no process by which they can currently apply to install rail seating. They could however, IMHO, make their support for this somewhat more public and current.

Absolutely. Both City and the Rugby should be backing every single encouraging sign and perhaps a bit of public lobbying too.

15 hours ago, Blagdon red said:

Ours was a demo. Theirs is real.

They're allowed to. We're not.

We've been too good on the field over the last 25 years (yeah, really), so that what is deemed safe in their ground is deemed unsafe in ours.

 

This always makes me laugh. The law is a complete nonsense, but no politician has the balls or desire to change. it.

15 hours ago, Ska Junkie said:

I do mean the Shrews, my bad. 

Out of interest Blagdon, why is it that they can apply with a completely new stadium and we cannot?

Thanks.

I believe it is because they haven't played in the top two tiers since 1989 or whenever the law came in about standing areas at football.

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2 minutes ago, Welcome To The Jungle said:

I believe it is because they haven't played in the top two tiers since 1989 or whenever the law came in about standing areas at football.

So, as things stand and thanks for the reply, just Brentford and Burton could apply from the top 2 divisions as they still have terracing? As Brentford are moving, that could stop them as well I guess?

All the rest of us can do is express an interest?

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Just now, Ska Junkie said:

So, as things stand and thanks for the reply, just Brentford and Burton could apply from the top 2 divisions as they still have terracing? As Brentford are moving, that could stop them as well I guess?

Brentford are allowed to keep their standing areas for longer as their move will be all seater so have been given special dispensation. If they installed rail seats then the powers that be would argue that they could afford normal seats to replace their terracing so it would be rejected imo. Burton could install it but would have to get rid of it in two seasons time provided they stay in the Championship. As they have perfectly safe, normal terracing, this would be a backwards step for them anyway. 

dortmund13.jpg

Standing does not kill, overcrowding does. Geographical location, sporting division or different sports do not make standing more or less safe. Another reason football fans are shafted and there is no reason why terraces like the above should not be legal.  

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http://www.thestadiumbusiness.com/2017/03/13/football-league-clubs-given-rail-seating-approval/

A request from the Football League to implement rail seating in 21 grounds that are not subject to all-seater requirements has been accepted by the Sports Grounds Safety Authority (SGSA), the governing body responsible for stadium safety.

In a letter to the clubs that was written by the Football League’s chief executive, Shaun Harvey, it was revealed that the SGSA has agreed “to establish a process” whereby rail seating such as the type used in Germany’s Bundesliga and at Celtic Park can be introduced, UK newspaper the Guardian reports.

“This is the first time the SGSA have signalled that rail seating could be licensed for use at English and Welsh football grounds,” Harvey wrote.

“In practice, I think it’s fairly unlikely that clubs will choose to take up this opportunity given they are already permitted to utilise traditional terracing and because of the significant cost of installing rail seating. Additionally, the government is not currently minded to allow these clubs to use rail seating at all (in either standing or seated mode) if they become subject to the all-seater policy at a future point. Although it is closely monitoring the installation of 3,000 rail seats at Celtic Park.

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http://www.fsf.org.uk/campaigns/safe-standing/the-legalities-of-standing/

Initially it was planned that all Football League clubs should convert to all-seater status. This was subsequently amended to include just the top two divisions. A similar amendment to allow standing in the Premier League and Championship is also quite possible and would not need a new Act of Parliament.

In England and Wales, standing is permitted at rugby union and rugby league venues, as well as at speedway and horse-racing. It is also permitted at football grounds outside the top two divisions. We see no justification why top level football clubs should be treated differently.

THE LAW ON STANDING IN ALL-SEATED GROUNDS

Ever since the introduction of all-seater stadia, many supporters have continued to stand in front of their seats, often for the duration of the game.

It is widely believed that this practice is illegal. This is not the case, even within Premier League and Championship grounds. The law only provides that these clubs should provide seats for all supporters, not that supporters must sit on them.

STANDING IN SEATED AREAS – CLUB APPROACHES

Since standing is an issue between clubs and supporters, it is up to individual clubs how they deal with it.

Certain clubs are very strict in attempting to tackle this practice, taking measures such as ejecting people who stand. These practices can create significant public order problems, while there is little evidence of them being effective.

Other clubs take a more relaxed approach to this, particularly where it is not causing problems.‘We take a somewhat relaxed view on (standing) provided the individuals are not causing annoyance to other spectators or obstructing other spectators views.’ (Club safety officer in correspondence with FSF member)

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18 minutes ago, Welcome To The Jungle said:

Brentford are allowed to keep their standing areas for longer as their move will be all seater so have been given special dispensation. If they installed rail seats then the powers that be would argue that they could afford normal seats to replace their terracing so it would be rejected imo. Burton could install it but would have to get rid of it in two seasons time provided they stay in the Championship. As they have perfectly safe, normal terracing, this would be a backwards step for them anyway. 

dortmund13.jpg

Standing does not kill, overcrowding does. Geographical location, sporting division or different sports do not make standing more or less safe. Another reason football fans are shafted and there is no reason why terraces like the above should not be legal.  

Ah, the mighty tribune! I've stood on there a few times.

Would I be right in saying that Brentford would have to change their planning permissions to integrate it in their new place or would they still need a law change to put safe standing in?

Sorry for so many questions BTW.

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Just now, Ska Junkie said:

Ah, the mighty tribune! I've stood on there a few times.

Would I be right in saying that Brentford would have to change their planning permissions to integrate it in their new place or would they still need a law change to put safe standing in?

Soryy for so many questions BTW.

They'd need a law change as they've been in the Championship for more than three seasons

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Just now, Welcome To The Jungle said:

They'd need a law change as they've been in the Championship for more than three seasons

Burton would have to go all seater in 2 seasons then if they stay up? Does the 3 years start again if you go down and back up then as their capacity will be tiny if they go all seater with the ground as it is.

Cracking knowledge BTW. :thumbsup:

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Just now, Ska Junkie said:

Burton would have to go all seater in 2 seasons then if they stay up? Does the 3 years start again if you go down and back up then as their capacity will be tiny if they go all seater with the ground as it is.

Cracking knowledge BTW. :thumbsup:

If Burton survive for 2 more seasons then the'd have to go all seater. 

Regarding the three years starting again I'm less sure. I believe that if you go down after one or two season then the three years would re-set and if you came back to the championship you'd have another three years. However if you complete your three years and go down you cannot go back to standing. I believe this is the case but I'm not sure.

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Just now, Welcome To The Jungle said:

If Burton survive for 2 more seasons then the'd have to go all seater. 

Regarding the three years starting again I'm less sure. I believe that if you go down after one or two season then the three years would re-set and if you came back to the championship you'd have another three years. However if you complete your three years and go down you cannot go back to standing. I believe this is the case but I'm not sure.

Nice one WTTJ, I certainly know a lot more about it now.

It appears all the vast majority of Championship clubs can do is 'express an interest' and wait for any change in the law.

Could be a while.

Thanks again.

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Just now, Ska Junkie said:

Nice one WTTJ, I certainly know a lot more about it now.

It appears all the vast majority of Championship clubs can do is 'express an interest' and wait for any change in the law.

Could be a while.

Thanks again.

Pretty much, and the politicians do not see this as a priority which in the grand scheme of things (like the collapsing NHS), it isn't. However as with all things, if there are enough voices, then it can become a priority. For this reason, the club need to be a broken record and never let it not be an issue. 

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6 hours ago, Welcome To The Jungle said:

If Burton survive for 2 more seasons then the'd have to go all seater. 

Regarding the three years starting again I'm less sure. I believe that if you go down after one or two season then the three years would re-set and if you came back to the championship you'd have another three years. However if you complete your three years and go down you cannot go back to standing. I believe this is the case but I'm not sure.

I think it depends on how quickly you come back up but I`m not sure by any means

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33 minutes ago, cidered abroad said:

But with so many now wanting to do it, maybe things might start moving positively.

Some money grabbing lawyers are already rubbing their hands at the thought of a lengthy court case over this issue. Then the result will go to appeal and then be referred to the High Court and possibly for discussion by both Houses of Parliament.

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1 hour ago, cidered abroad said:

Both Shrewsbury and Notts County are all seated stadia so are subject to the same problems as we have in trying to introduce rail seating.

The rules only apply in the top 2 divisions don't they cidered? If either reached the Championship I assume  they would have to revert to all seater given the current rules?

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Let me clarify. A few things are getting mixed up here.

All clubs in tier 1 and 2 had to go all-seater in 1994.

Since then, any club playing for 3 seasons at that level has had to go all-seater ahead of its 4th season at that level.

Clubs that have gone all-seater as a result of this legal requirement cannot revert to standing, even if they are relegated to tiers 3 or 4.

A club with terracing that has completed its 3 seasons in tier 1 or 2, but is in the process of building a new all-seater stadium is usually given a period of grace, e.g. Cardiff were allowed to play for 2 extra seasons at Ninian Road with terracing while their new ground was being built and Brentofrd will play a 4th season with terraces this coming season, as they too are in the process of building a new ground.

As the law stands, no club with a ground that has had to go all-seater by law can use rail seats. Not for standing, nor as seats. That's why City, despite lobbying for a change in the way the law is applied, were ultimately not able to open the South Stand and redeveloped Dolman with rail seats in place.

This March, the EFL agreed a new process with the Sports Ground Safety Authority. It applies ONLY to clubs with grounds that have never been required by law to go all-seater. Under this process those clubs can apply for approval to fit and use rail seats for use as standing accommodation.

The clubs to which this new rule applies are the 21 that still have terraces (but have no reason to install rail seats) and 8 clubs that have either built a new all-seater or redeveloped an existing ground in that format over the last 20+ years even though they were under no legal obligation to have no standing. Those 8 clubs are: Shrewsbury, Northampton, Colchester, Chesterfield, Oxford, Bury, Mansfield and Lincoln.

It is because of this oddity of having an all-seater ground even though they don't have to and the new process that enables clubs not covered by the all-seater legislation to apply for approval to fit and use rail seating that Shrewsbury have been able to make their announcement.

Any of the other 7 could do likewise (Northampton plan to and Chesterfield say they will seriously consider it).

No other club with an all-seater can. Until the way in which the law is applied changes.

 

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http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/40767568

Liverpool supporters vote 88% in favour of safe standing (18k voters).

This is a big step forward IMO. The Hillsborough families and Liverpool Football Club together were one of the last stumbling blocks for safe standing (for obvious reasons) before the idea could be seriously considered in England.

Hopefully now the FA, the PL and the EFL can put serious pressure on the government to look into changes.

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