Never to the dark side Posted November 28, 2003 Report Share Posted November 28, 2003 As I'm off to work now Just heard the guy who was detained at his home in Gloster has had explosives found at his house. The ITN/ITV news reports that an attack was planned on a football ground Does any one have any further info on the football connection? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin phantom Posted November 28, 2003 Admin Report Share Posted November 28, 2003 Saw the report on GMTV news hour this morning. They said that their inteliigence said he could have been planning a suicide bomb attack at either Old Trafford or the GCHQ (Spy centre) in Cheltenahm (The ringed building you can see from the M5). Being so local to Cheltenham would have made sense but having been passed the GCHQ on numerous occasions he wouldn't get near enough to the building without a breach of security getting through the gates or over numerous barbed wire fences etc. Old Trafford must be a prime target as its so well known around the world and is the largest gathering of people in one place you could get, after experiencing the throngs of people up there for the recent England game if a suicide bomber targeted this area the potential fatality numbers would be much greater than 9/11. As serious as it is, I couldn't help thinking the poor guys down at the Mem could do with something happening there. Would be the first time something explosive happened on their ground for a while !... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terpin Posted November 28, 2003 Report Share Posted November 28, 2003 Apparently members of their "group" have been spotted at Old Trafford. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmax Posted November 28, 2003 Report Share Posted November 28, 2003 Blimey, it's getting closer to us by the day. Imagine all those families at Old Trafford when a bomb goes off, imagine if it were Ashton Gate. Thank god they have been stopped. MM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest citylady Posted November 28, 2003 Report Share Posted November 28, 2003 frightening very frightening Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2iamdavies Posted November 28, 2003 Report Share Posted November 28, 2003 Thats well scary. Good job they found him, before he had the chance to do anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bucksred Posted November 28, 2003 Report Share Posted November 28, 2003 For all you cuddly fluffies out there that think that Uncle Sam is responsible for all this mayhem, just a timely reminder that there are some evil b*****ds out there who wish to see all our way of life smashed for their own stone age beliefs, and its got jack to do with the Ami attack on Iraq. The Price of Freedom, my friends, is eternal Vigilance, thanks to the military, Cops and intelligence guys that helped nail this b*****d, and many like him world wide. http://www.otib.co.uk/uploads/emoticons/default_sad.png' alt=':('> we can all breath a little safer............ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy g Posted November 28, 2003 Report Share Posted November 28, 2003 I wonder if the security services are leaping to conclusions here... could it be that they were just watching Man Utd at Old Trafford ? They certainly wouldn't be the first non-mancunians to be seen at the 'theatre of dreams'. After all even Osama Bin Laden has been seen at the football (apparently he's a gooner) I wonder if we have any celebrity-terrorist fans ? Has anyone seen Carlos the Jackal at Ashton Gate ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Port Said Red Posted November 28, 2003 Report Share Posted November 28, 2003 frightening very frightening As it's far more dangerous travelling to the ground, I think it's important to keep these scare stories in perspective. It ranks up there with the non-football fans in the 70's who used to ask me how I could go to matches and feel safe with all the hooliganism going on, that didn't effect me then and this is unlikely to effect me now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WillsbridgeRed Posted November 28, 2003 Report Share Posted November 28, 2003 A terrorist attack on Ashton Gate would just be greeted with a chorus of boos and finger pointing. Wilson and Burnell being singled out instantly. In all seriousness though, these animals (Terrorists, not DW and JB) would actually hit a sporting venue, they would not care about the families. Is it any suprise we have people here that want to bomb us, afterall - Yardies seem to be able to get into this country with ease, I expect terrorists dont have a problem either. Luckily out intelligance people seem top notch and capable of dealing with the threats posed to us Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thornbury Red Posted November 28, 2003 Report Share Posted November 28, 2003 At the end of the day its down to fate, september 11th, omagh whatever - if its your bad luck to be where these extremists are then you are bankrupt in the game of life. :Rage: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BTR_FTG Posted November 28, 2003 Report Share Posted November 28, 2003 "...there are some evil b*****ds out there who wish to see all our way of life smashed for their own stone age beliefs..." Our way of life - so what would that be then? Let us suppose the British hadn't established the state of Israel. Let us suppose the British & Americans hadn't sought to destabalise the Middle East by supporting Israel in its battle against the Arab nations. Let us suppose that Britain , The US, The West refused to purchase the black sticky stuff that oozes from those Middle Eastern territories in abundance. How much gripe would those Islamic fundamentalists have with the West? How different would 'our way of life' be to that we presently experience? Belief is belief. Some of us appear to believe we in The West have a divine right to enjoy the fruits of excess & opulence, that we believe in the right to have what we want when we want, even if we have neither the means or intention of paying for such rights. Uncle Sam isn't to blame - each of us as individuals are. We expect to have the right to have instantaneous light, heat & power to idle our days away in forums such as this. We expect to have the instantaneous right to travel where we like when we like, to eat what we like when we like, to do what we like when we want to do so . The price of those expectations isn't the four quid a gallon you shell out when you fill up, the real price is that some disenfranchised person who holds differing opinions to yourself might want to do something about it in the method they best see fit. And if they're so foolhardy as to believe in some eternal salvation at the hands of a psychological construct, so be it. They've as much right to their folly as we to ours. Always somebody else's problem ? Well it might just be yours & what right have you to complain? What's so different between the animistic beliefs of our stone-age forebears, Osama & Co or the Pope in his frock ? Not much it seems to me & perhaps you'd do well to ask yourself a similar question when next you attend a memorial service for dead soliders or office workers blown out of their workplace. BTR FTG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beezey Posted November 28, 2003 Report Share Posted November 28, 2003 Seems as though the media have done what they usually do in these situations and filled in the blanks ! http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/glouces...ire/3242812.stm Small amounts of explosives and complete denial of any link to a terrorist attack on a football ground. Still why let the facts get in the way of a perfectly good story ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WillsbridgeRed Posted November 28, 2003 Report Share Posted November 28, 2003 "Let us suppose the British hadn't established the state of Israel. " Or lets suppose the Palestinians had taken the land offered to them, and not tried to take the whole lot. This is so often not mentiond by people that blame the whole problem on Israel (I'm not pro Israeli, both sides are to blame) "Let us suppose that Britain , The US, The West refused to purchase the black sticky stuff that oozes from those Middle Eastern territories in abundance" Lets suppose the wealth greated by selling that oil to us was spent on the people, and not the ruling elite. "How much gripe would those Islamic fundamentals have with the West?" Plenty, our cultures are so different they will always see us as evil. Take human rights and religious freedom for example. "We expect to have the right to have instantaneous light, heat & power to idle our days away " And your point is? This can quite easily come from sources that don't involve oil. I see your point. But refuse to belive there's ANY excuse for Islamic terrorism other than a wave of Islamic Fascism. These problems have excisted for along time, attention has turned from corrupt self serving oil governments to that of its customers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Port Said Red Posted November 28, 2003 Report Share Posted November 28, 2003 BTR FTG. I understand why you felt the need to make this point but your post was far too political for this forum I think, whether I agree with you or not is totally irrelevant. I thought the important point raised within the original post and the replies, was the fear that this story generated. It is necessary to emphasise that the aim of a Terrorist is to terrorise and that any suggestion that their plans cause people to change their way of life (i.e. going to enjoy the game) is playing into their hands. This point was made brilliantly by Michael Moore in his film "Bowling for Columbine" the generation of fear by the media over reaction in these stories (back to them again!) causes the over-reaction of the person in the street. Keep going to them game's, keep going out, keep shopping whatever you NORMALLY do keep doing it or the terrorists (whether their cause is just or unjust is also irrelevant at this stage)will win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cityboy Posted November 28, 2003 Report Share Posted November 28, 2003 "Our way of life - so what would that be then? Let us suppose the British hadn't established the state of Israel. Let us suppose the British & Americans hadn't sought to destabalise the Middle East by supporting Israel in its battle against the Arab nations. Let us suppose that Britain , The US, The West refused to purchase the black sticky stuff that oozes from those Middle Eastern territories in abundance. How much gripe would those Islamic fundamentalists have with the West? How different would 'our way of life' be to that we presently experience?" Lets also suppose that we didn't pump billions of £'s into their economy every year and they went back to their (previous) nomadic existence..... "Belief is belief. Some of us appear to believe we in The West have a divine right to enjoy the fruits of excess & opulence, that we believe in the right to have what we want when we want, even if we have neither the means or intention of paying for such rights." The difference is we no longer feel the need to kill innocent people for our beliefs (I'm not refering to the religion here just the fanatics that claim to follow it) "Uncle Sam isn't to blame - each of us as individuals are. We expect to have the right to have instantaneous light, heat & power to idle our days away in forums such as this. We expect to have the instantaneous right to travel where we like when we like, to eat what we like when we like, to do what we like when we want to do so . The price of those expectations isn't the four quid a gallon you shell out when you fill up" (can i take it then that you boycott the sale of oil based products as a personal objection?? Thought not) , the real price is that some disenfranchised person who holds differing opinions to yourself might want to do something about it in the method they best see fit. And if they're so foolhardy as to believe in some eternal salvation at the hands of a psychological construct, so be it. They've as much right to their folly as we to ours." By your arugument we should all be up in arms at the footballers earning mega money and enjoying a more affluent lifestyle than ours, yet we aren't going around driving TNT into their estates are we? "Always somebody else's problem ? Well it might just be yours & what right have you to complain? What's so different between the animistic beliefs of our stone-age forebears, Osama & Co or the Pope in his frock ? Not much it seems to me & perhaps you'd do well to ask yourself a similar question when next you attend a memorial service for dead soliders or office workers blown out of their workplace." I am in military intelligence so please dont assume to lecture me about memorial services for colleagues, I take great affront to the suggestion that we (as a society) are to blame for bringing everything on ourselves. Frankly your post really winds me up however everyone is entitled to their opinion, indeed that is one of the benefits of our culture that other nations (in particular the middle east) don't enjoy. When you've been there and experienced the logic defying supression of people (especially women) you might not find the western lifestyle so offensive after all..... Rant over! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy g Posted November 28, 2003 Report Share Posted November 28, 2003 I think we've just demonstrated why the Arab-Israeli conflict is so difficult to resolve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beezey Posted November 28, 2003 Report Share Posted November 28, 2003 Excellent post Hornbeam, The media has a lot to answer for in the way it twists and turns stories. They know that by linking incidents to Al-keyda they will get people to sit up and take notice. What worrys me most is the us and them attitude of a lot of media organisations, They assume all muslims are part of Al-keyda and they are out to kill and maime as many innocent people as possible for there cause. In a country such as this with a high population of different races, Ethnic backgrounds and religions its a dangerous game to play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BTR_FTG Posted November 28, 2003 Report Share Posted November 28, 2003 Hornbeam, I'll keep going to games, my point being that I'm no different to Ahab the Arab in that if my desire is to live in unoppressed safety then chances are that's exactly what he/she wants too. Your point as to who 'terrorists' are is interesting, in that they only exist in the minds of those who perceive them to be so. Osama Bin Laden : Nelson Mandela One of the above was universally branded a 'terrorist' & served a long custodial sentence having been convicted of causing, & conspiring to cause, explosions. One of the above is highly feted & enjoys lavish receptions at 10 Downing Street & Buckighma Plaace. Makes one think, eh ? Willsbridge, "....the Palestinians had taken the land offered to them..." What, their own land ? And what of the land that was theirs but that they could no longer occupy, it having been given to somebody else? When will people realise that we are paying for the falicy of colonialism. Our empires & present lifesytles were/are underpinned by the wealth of others. History has shown that if the source of such wealth is denied then societies will fight to gain access to such sources, even if such action consistutes theft & leads to war. The West needs oil, in particular The US needs oil, & Bush & his forebears have shown that, being the military might that they are, they WILL get what they want. For them there is no other option, other than to fundamentally change their lifestyle. If you've ever been to Middle East you might have picked up the very strange dynamic between the tenets of Islam & the concept of ruling dynasties. It's not so dissimilar to the way in which the poorest Eastenders tended to be the Queen Mum's most fervent supporters. In most Arab states I've visited the trickle down of oil revenues to your average Arab has been more like a downpour. Health, education, housing tend to be of good quality with taxes being low to non-existant. As with everywhere, some are very much richer than others and we in The West tend to jump to readily to westernised conclusions. Human rights & freedom of religious expression aren't that far removed in downtown Riyadh as in Canterbury. We might not think so, but go there, so who the people are, hear what their beliefs are, see how they physically respond to their own beliefs. You'd be very surprised as to who polices who. BTR FTG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BTR_FTG Posted November 28, 2003 Report Share Posted November 28, 2003 Cityboy, "I am in military intelligence....." Given the rest of your post I can't work out if I'm not surprised, frightened at the prospect, or both. What if the Arabs didn't sell their oil & went back to their nomadic existance? That's what, in time, they know will happen. One thing's for sure, they'll cope far better that we in the West will. What chance, if they decided to do so, the West wouldn't take action to protect their own interests? That would be quite a u-turn as that's exactly what successive Western governments have said they WILL do. ".....we no longer kill innocent people for our beliefs.." for a man in military intelligence one might have thought that you'd have heard of Suez, Korea, Vietnam, El Slavador, Honduras, Falklands, Greneda, Kuwait, Lybia, Iraq....... Your logic isn't so much flawed as non-existent. I am Western, I live a Western lifestyle only, unlike you, I apprecaite that my lifestyle impinges upon others, at their expense, & appreciate that they might want to do something to rectify that. I accept that I am part of the problem & therefore have little right to complain when somebody takes me to task about it, be it with pen or sword. As for the wealthy footballers thing, I wish I could respond but as I can't fathom by what devous mechanism you reached your conclusion I'm stumped for an answer. No Marxist me, straight up libertarian & good luck to Matthews if he earns more than enough to buy the contents of the bakers. BTR FTG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WillsbridgeRed Posted November 28, 2003 Report Share Posted November 28, 2003 I think people forget that Oil is not the only energy source available. If Nuclear power and alternative lubrication oils were used, solar powered/electric cars were to become the norm, oil and the whole Gulf region would cease to be of any use. Who would want to invest there and there would be no other resources for the oil states to live on. But that is a different arguement! "".....we no longer kill innocent people for our beliefs.." for a man in military intelligence one might have thought that you'd have heard of Suez, Korea, Vietnam, El Slavador, Honduras, Falklands, Greneda, Kuwait, Lybia, Iraq......." I'm not uptogether in the small bannana republics, but is was the Falklands and Kuwait classed as killing innocents? Both were engagements against hostile forces Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red under the bed Posted November 28, 2003 Report Share Posted November 28, 2003 I know that this thread has gone off track and is not now City related, but still very interesting to hear the differing arguments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niall Posted November 28, 2003 Report Share Posted November 28, 2003 BTR FTG Haven't got time to respond to BTR's eloquent postings, as I'm too busy at work (not military intelligence I'm afraid, I went to University). Suffice to say that anyone who believes that 'terrorists' arrested by our great and glorious counter-terrorism forces is instantly guilty and the world is suddenly a safer place. need to wake up and look at recent evidence: - The North Africans arrested in London for producing the latest chic deadly chemical turn out to have traces so small on them that any one of us could also have been nicked for the same offence. - The pilot, whose career is now utterly ruined, arrested for 'training' the Al-Quaida bombers - absolutely bugger-all on him too. - The detainees at Guantamo Bay who've been interregated without access to legal advice for more than two years (good to see the special relationship in full and working order). And thats not including the Guildford Four, the Birmingham Six, the Cardiff 3 etc etc etc. We in the west do lead a lifestyle that is dependent on not only the natural resources of Arab states but also on the blood sweat and tears of children in Vietnam, Indonesia, China (yes, thats you, idiot label junkies) and we should occassionally think less about the outrages that might be perpetrated and consider a little more why terrorists feel so angry towards us (as background reading, might I suggest Noam Chomsky's 'Rogue States: The use of Force in World Affairs' - not as good as Well Red, but interesting, nontheless). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cityboy Posted November 28, 2003 Report Share Posted November 28, 2003 Rant over! As much as I'm tempted, I refuse to be drawn any further into this debate with you on a website connected to the football team I love! Having said that, one final point I would like to make is that at the end of the day (the sun sets?!) surely no-one in their right mind can see any provocation that justifys the approach taken by terrorist groups be it Al-Kayeda, Tamil Tigers, IRA etc......... (and incidentally if you were a resident of the falklands/georgia islands/kuwait et al are you saying that you wouldn't have wanted any intervening help.............?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WillsbridgeRed Posted November 28, 2003 Report Share Posted November 28, 2003 I still fail to se why we should always seek to apologise for our way of living and why other "less developed" countries can't get their house in order. Is colonialism to blame for the continued tribal violence in African nations? Clearly it is not, it is ingrained in the culture. The same way Islamic fundementalism and hatred toward the west is now seemingly part of the "culture" for many. If Capitalisation is to blame for the current crop of Islamic millitants by causing poverty, why do we not have Albanian terrorists bombing us? A big multi National, Coka-Cola is one of the biggest employers in Palestine, without it there would be many more jobless souls Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BTR_FTG Posted November 28, 2003 Report Share Posted November 28, 2003 Actually, all the Falklanders wanted was British Citizenship & the nice hardbacked blue passport that went with it & a certain Mrs. Thatcher told them to go & take a running jump. Until, that is, somebody mentioned that there might be mineral & oil deposits in them there seas so we invented our very own extra large exclusion territory around them there bits of rock. Strange how such things seek to concentrate the mind. BTR FTG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Port Said Red Posted November 28, 2003 Report Share Posted November 28, 2003 Well I have to say that usually after so many replies the standard of the post's deteriorate into " I think DW is great" "I think he sucks" etc. I think you should all be praised for keeping the standards up on this one. Just a shame it's no longer about football and it's never been about Bristol City Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bucksred Posted November 29, 2003 Report Share Posted November 29, 2003 Ah yes, memorial services for the dead, well I am aware of these, my parents served in WW2, all my grandparents in WW1, 12 years in the forces myself, and family who served in the recent war in Iraq, and I've had thne babykiller jibes, and all the other left wing anti Ami etc ####. Fact: your freedom to slag everyything off was brought by British, and AMERICAN lives, and although they aint always right, in what they do, they garantee our rights, and our way of life. Saddam, Bin Laden, Al Queida, Palestinian Suicide Bombers, are todays evil, it used to be the Warsaw Pact, and the East/West Germany border, and the same people still have a go, I get a feeling of CND induced deja-vu. They were misguidecd then, and the anti war movement is still misguided now- we will have to fight these people at some stage, because like the Nazis, and Communists before them, they do not recogize our rights, only their insane beliefs and doctrine, and will destroy us if they can. As servicemen we were (are ) entitled to the support of our country if our ELECTED leaders call us to arms, in the name of our country. If we break the rules then criticise us, if not shut up.. we are the ones that put our lives on the line, not the mass of the population. The Bin Laden boys aint elected, Hussein wasnt elected, the Suicide bombers aint elected, the IRA/ETA/Red Army Faction aint elected, the Bali bombers wernt elected, neither were the 9/11 murderers. Like it or not Dubya and Sharon were elected (just!) and Bliar too...we have a choice brothers and sisters, most Muslims dont or are restricted (Women in Afghanistan) If we dont eradicate these fanatics, we will then resort to the worst thing, attacking a whole religion, or race, which will then make us no better than them. They like the IRA, ETA, Red Army Faction etc, will kill anybody, at all to score their "victory", radicalising a group of people, in this case all Muslims, by inciting hatred against them, and then gaining support from them, like the war in Algeria in the 50's & 60's (Not all Algerians were pro radical methods to gain independance). Look at the death toll in Turkey- a Muslim country last week, women, Muslims etc, just to vent their bigotry about us- If this sort of insanity is regarded as right thank ##** I'm wrong, cos this aint what I was brought up to beleive Britain was about. Sorry its so long, just needed to clear the air- over to others to comment further, but dont accuse me of not knowing about the cost of war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cidergeorge Posted November 29, 2003 Report Share Posted November 29, 2003 Whether we like it or not formal trade and defense agreements exist between many countires once ruled by the west. An informal empire does exist, and like our formal empire of the victorian age it benefits a very few. There are many links between the Boer wars and the recent Iraq wars, but there are so may reasons you would need to write an essay as to why theses decisions were made. The majority of them I am afraid you will probably find are strategic and / or financial otherwise why would "we" get involved. I do not think you can link all seperationalist movements (IRA / ETA)as that is simplifying the question a little bit. Imagine if 400 years ago we were invaded by France. France then imposed rulers upon us and we were effectively treated as second class citzens. We were no longer allowed to be owners of land because we are protestant or because we are going to disagree with the terms by which we were being ruled? Do you really think we would not have our own "freedom fighters"? Any way that's my two pence. It's raining up north today..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taz Posted November 29, 2003 Report Share Posted November 29, 2003 The threat of a terroist attack, not only on a football stadium, but shopping centres, airports, train stations etc are always going to be around unfortunately. What's the point in worrying about it though? Anybody, at anytime, anywhere could end up on the receiving end of some sort of attack. Everytime you cross the road, you're always taking a risk. The risk that there is some idiotic driver going over the speed limit, and will hit you as you cross. Do we worry about something like this? Not much. If any sort of attack were to happen, then it would happen. Unfortunately there's not a lot we can do about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.