Which LJ signings have improved since coming here ?

[WRERE]

6 minutes ago, Esmond Million's Bung said:

Good point well made, but having worked so hard improving the skills of 29 year old Herr Hegeler a player signed as a midfielder is he on the bench when our midfield has been so poor for the past 2 and half games?.

I believe Johnson has said before Hegeler can't/struggles to play in a two man midfield, and I agree. He's the sort of midfielder that sits deep and protects the centre backs playing simple possession based passes , very similar style to Eric Dier. In a midfield 3 he's the perfect holding midfielder but obviously we are playing a 442 currently and we need our midfielders to do a bit of everything. When he played centrally in a two man midfield vs Fulham at home he was anonymous. He lost his man and came out of position so much.

2 minutes ago, MarkRed! said:

Baker and Wright are not better options. Hegeler should be in the team either as a CB or a midfielder. Personally, I would play 4321 and have him a midfield 3. LJ wont do that.

You think Hegeler is a better CB than Wright or Baker? I couldn't disagree more if so. We've played similar formations and systems in the past but now Johnson obviously wants to play a 442 and Hegeler as a centre midfielder doesn't fit into it.

[MarkRed!]

7 minutes ago, hodge said:

And in doing so left us with a very small squad (17 first team players wasn't it?) which needed bolstering when LJ came in. Buying only players who improved our first team would then have been very costly for the amount needed to bolster the squad enough.

It was not SC that left us short but the club. He inherited a small squad in the first place. Whats the point buying up players who have arguably not actually improved us. 

[cheshire_red]

Re Hegeler, the question has to be therefore asked, why is he here?

[Esmond Million's Bung]

4 minutes ago, WRERE said:

I believe Johnson has said before Hegeler can't/struggles to play in a two man midfield, and I agree. He's the sort of midfielder that sits deep and protects the centre backs playing simple possession based passes , very similar style to Eric Dier. In a midfield 3 he's the perfect holding midfielder but obviously we are playing a 442 currently and we need our midfielders to do a bit of everything. When he played centrally in a two man midfield vs Fulham at home he was anonymous. He lost his man and came out of position so much.

 

OK so going back to the actual OP, we can agree LJ has not improved Hegeler then?.

[Lrrr]

1 minute ago, MarkRed! said:

It was not SC that left us short but the club. He inherited a small squad in the first place. Whats the point buying up players who have arguably not actually improved us. 

We weren't always leaving gaps on the bench which started towards the end of Cotts time here, maybe having enough first team players to not do that could be a reason for signing a player, or the idea behind what LJ is doing, buying players who could improve to be sold for profit.

couple of bad injuries during Cotts time in the championship and how bad could things have gotten? 

[MarkRed!]

6 minutes ago, WRERE said:

I believe Johnson has said before Hegeler can't/struggles to play in a two man midfield, and I agree. He's the sort of midfielder that sits deep and protects the centre backs playing simple possession based passes , very similar style to Eric Dier. In a midfield 3 he's the perfect holding midfielder but obviously we are playing a 442 currently and we need our midfielders to do a bit of everything. When he played centrally in a two man midfield vs Fulham at home he was anonymous. He lost his man and came out of position so much.

You think Hegeler is a better CB than Wright or Baker? I couldn't disagree more if so. We've played similar formations and systems in the past but now Johnson obviously wants to play a 442 and Hegeler as a centre midfielder doesn't fit into it.

Why buy Hegeler in the first place then. Another one, who is a waste of time. 

[MarkRed!]

7 minutes ago, hodge said:

We weren't always leaving gaps on the bench which started towards the end of Cotts time here, maybe having enough first team players to not do that could be a reason for signing a player, or the idea behind what LJ is doing, buying players who could improve to be sold for profit.

couple of bad injuries during Cotts time in the championship and how bad could things have gotten? 

Cotts was "gone" by this point. He had fallen out with the Club at the start of that season....he was making a point.

[Offside]

58 minutes ago, Robin101 said:

Does it have to be a LJ signing?

Pack, Bryan, Reid, Paterson, Brownhill all look to have improved significantly if you ask me. 

Agree about Pack.

 

[Lrrr]

Was it a case of trying to bring in players who the club couldn't financially afford that caused the fall out? If so seems that a fair portion of that would be his fault then.

[Phileas Fogg]

7 minutes ago, Esmond Million's Bung said:

OK so going back to the actual OP, we can agree LJ has not improved Hegeler then?.

The actual OP was about 'ones for the future' which disqualifies Hegeler.

At 29, how much 'improvement' can you expect him to make?

[jayjay]

But has the Head Coach improved since he came here.

[WRERE]

9 minutes ago, Esmond Million's Bung said:

OK so going back to the actual OP, we can agree LJ has not improved Hegeler then?.

No we can't.

6 minutes ago, MarkRed! said:

Why buy Hegeler in the first place then. Another one, who is a waste of time. 

Because we were playing a different system then to what we are playing now. Also he may have been fine in a two-man midfield in Germany but couldn't quite do it over here for whatever reason.

[Marina's Rolls Royce]

 

2 minutes ago, Fordy62 said:

A very very good point. 

Ayling and Freeman immediately spring to mind. You might argue Kodjia. And we know that Adam Matthews is capable of so much more than he showed here, ditto Tomlin (who I accept is a complicated issue!). We've also made multi promotion winning Gary O'Neil shit.

Joe Bryan has certainly not improved and Bobby Reid - well it's not difficult to improve on not playing is it?

A very very unfair point.

Ayling aside- who was pretty decent to start with- on the pitch at least . Kodjia was improving all the time , Adam Matthews was unfit and seemingly disinterested yet so far has made one second half appearance from the bench for Sunderland so 'clearly' incapable of any more atm whilst Tomlin did what Tomlin does and is now warming the bench for the ultimate 'get the best out of man manager'.

Gary O'Neil was not fully fit for much of last season due to ongoing injury problems which doesn't mean we made him shit.

Joe Bryan has certainly improved and is beginning to look like he did in L1 but now in Championship as has Bobby Reid by a change of position. He looked no worse or better the times he played last season but currently looks like where he should be.

At every club player's form changes and not every signing improves or adapts which is why you get squads. 

 

[LondonBristolian]

21 minutes ago, WRERE said:

I believe Johnson has said before Hegeler can't/struggles to play in a two man midfield, and I agree. He's the sort of midfielder that sits deep and protects the centre backs playing simple possession based passes , very similar style to Eric Dier. In a midfield 3 he's the perfect holding midfielder but obviously we are playing a 442 currently and we need our midfielders to do a bit of everything. When he played centrally in a two man midfield vs Fulham at home he was anonymous. He lost his man and came out of position so much.

You think Hegeler is a better CB than Wright or Baker? I couldn't disagree more if so. We've played similar formations and systems in the past but now Johnson obviously wants to play a 442 and Hegeler as a centre midfielder doesn't fit into it.

4

I understand the argument but personally think it is undermined slightly in that 'I'm not convinced Smith or Pack thrive in a two either!

 

I don't think Hegeler is a 'better' CB than Wright or Baker but I do think there is an advantage, especially at home against teams we should be beating, in having someone in defence who can get on the ball and bring it forward and play from the back. I also think we were crying out for him in the second half v Brentford as a 3rd man in midfield.

I get that Johnson wants to play 4-4-2 and we have shown in spells we can play well in that formation but it has now been two and a half games without a decent half. I'm not suggesting LJ should chop and change constantly but we may be getting to the point where he has to accept the formation he would prefer to play is not working, or that at the very least we need an alternative back up plan...

[Fordy62]

5 minutes ago, Marina's Rolls Royce said:

 

A very very unfair point.

Ayling aside- who was pretty decent to start with- on the pitch at least (but LJ got rid of him for a pittance). Kodjia was improving all the time , Adam Matthews was unfit and seemingly disinterested yet so far has made one second half appearance from the bench for Sunderland so 'clearly' incapable of any more atm whilst Tomlin did what Tomlin does and is now warming the bench for the ultimate 'get the best out of man manager'. (I'm not sure we can agree on definition of 'bench warmer').

Gary O'Neil was not fully fit for much of last season due to ongoing injury problems which doesn't mean we made him shit.

so why were we playing unfit players? We've seen a big fat nothing from him in any game  since he arrived.

Joe Bryan has certainly improved (questionable) and is beginning to look like he did in L1 but now in Championship as has Bobby Reid by a change of position (you could argue this was forced upon LJ by injury rather than judgement) He looked no worse or better the times he played last season but currently looks like where he should be.

At every club player's form changes and not every signing improves or adapts which is why you get squads. 

 

 

[MarkRed!]

17 minutes ago, WRERE said:

No we can't.

Because we were playing a different system then to what we are playing now. Also he may have been fine in a two-man midfield in Germany but couldn't quite do it over here for whatever reason.

Do you know anything about Hegeler? He was a back up player for both Leverkusen and Hertha Berlin in his recent history. He was a "fill in" player either in midfield or CB. He has now progressed to the err... bench at Bristol City. The only reason LJ has said he cannot play in a two in CM is because he has seen him play. He does not have the pace at his disposal, which would have been obvious if he had been properly scouted. Although neither Pack nor O'Neill are exactly blessed with Pace. You dont sign players who can only play one system..... if you do then that is a rank bad strategy.

I personally think Hegeler was brought in to play in CM in a 4321. Unfortunately, we changed that system and now cannot fit him in. Utter waste of time as he is plainly a far better player than to be sitting on our bench..... 

[shelts]

1 hour ago, Ivorguy said:

Another way of asking this question, is how many ex players have improved since leaving us ?

I like where u r going with this ....

[Esmond Million's Bung]

27 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

The actual OP was about 'ones for the future' which disqualifies Hegeler.

At 29, how much 'improvement' can you expect him to make?

I was replying to another poster who claimed that LJ had improved him and I was agreeing with you.

[Olé]

I was thinking about exactly this question yesterday but decided that for now, it was such an unfavourable analysis, it should be avoided, as it would be seen as another explicit LJ out argument, at a time that most people quite reasonably want to wait until October before passing judgement.

But since you've raised the question. The track record is appalling. We have more £1m+ players he's signed that can't even get in the starting 11 consistently, than he has improved. In fact Wright, Brownhill and Paterson are the only ones with enough playing time to even be up for debate.

Wright is solid if unspectacular but I don't think you could say he has much of a higher ceiling to develop further. Paterson hasn't improved his consistency and prior to this season was not a first choice. So that just leaves Brownill who you can make a case for. He's certainly more physical.

I think Brownhill is the one, although I'm not certain what standard he reached at Barnsley as he played consistently to rave reviews. Part of the issue with objectively measuring Johnson's impact is he's marginalised so many of his own signings, just playing regularly becomes a 'development'.

 

If you widen the scope to include all players, then the answer is not any better. As I understand it Joe Bryan does not attribute any credit to current coaching, quite the opposite, the whole Flint thing stems from his own similar concerns, and there is no discernible improvement in any of our midfielders.

The obvious one for his revelatory performances this season alone is Bobby Reid, but then Johnson's man management of him last season was as appalling as any, and a better clue to his physical transformation is that the player himself sought out private coaching with Premiership players over the summer.

Like I said, I did not want to have this debate now as it will be seen as a stick to beat LJ with before he's had his allotted and fair time to prove himself this season, but this dichotomy between his role as 'coach' and few of his players developing, was always the biggest argument against Lansdown's position. 

[WRERE]

13 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

I understand the argument but personally think it is undermined slightly in that 'I'm not convinced Smith or Pack thrive in a two either!

 

I don't think Hegeler is a 'better' CB than Wright or Baker but I do think there is an advantage, especially at home against teams we should be beating, in having someone in defence who can get on the ball and bring it forward and play from the back. I also think we were crying out for him in the second half v Brentford as a 3rd man in midfield.

I get that Johnson wants to play 4-4-2 and we have shown in spells we can play well in that formation but it has now been two and a half games without a decent half. I'm not suggesting LJ should chop and change constantly but we may be getting to the point where he has to accept the formation he would prefer to play is not working, or that at the very least we need an alternative back up plan...

I agree with everything you said to an extent. I'm not 100% on Smith and Pack together but from what I've seen it's a better option than Hegeler. Baker carries the ball pretty well but he obviously doesn't have the technical attributes of Hegeler however I think that Hegeler would've been bullied by Milwall. I find him to be pretty weak and unstable. Agree about Brentford.

I imagine, and hope,  we will see some tactical tweaks over the next few games.

[Jack Dawe]

22 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

I think most players have improved. Young players are going to improve no matter who is manager.

I would think Tammy "improved" - or perhaps, merely demonstrated what he already had - by simply being given the chance. The chance to play every week over a full season in meaningful first team football with a lot at stake.

I'm not sure he needed any more coaching to improve, so much as he needed an opportunity to play, in first team football.

[WRERE]

20 minutes ago, MarkRed! said:

Do you know anything about Hegeler? He was a back up player for both Leverkusen and Hertha Berlin in his recent history. He was a "fill in" player either in midfield or CB. He has now progressed to the err... bench at Bristol City. The only reason LJ has said he cannot play in a two in CM is because he has seen him play. He does not have the pace at his disposal, which would have been obvious if he had been properly scouted. Although neither Pack nor O'Neill are exactly blessed with Pace. You dont sign players who can only play one system..... if you do then that is a rank bad strategy.

I personally think Hegeler was brought in to play in CM in a 4321. Unfortunately, we changed that system and now cannot fit him in. Utter waste of time as he is plainly a far better player than to be sitting on our bench..... 

Yes I know how he was used in Germany. What's the point you're trying to make here exactly? There are many players who play in a 2 man midfield who don't have pace yet play the position well, as you've said Pack and O'Neil don't have pace yet they've done much better than he has and still play so I doubt it's down to his pace. It's not that he can only play in one system, it's that he can't play in the one we are using and he's attributes are that of a holding midfielder which isn't something we employ. He's also perfect adept at playing centre half hence why we and other clubs have used him there.

I agree that's one of the reasons why he was bought in and the other is that he could also fill in defensively. Maybe we should stick to one system even if it doesn't get results like Cotts did.

[Shtanley]

How many Cotts signings improved under Cotts. 

[Marina's Rolls Royce]

51 minutes ago, Fordy62 said:

(but LJ got rid of him for a pittance)

At the time, most thought it was a good piece of business and not the end of the world. The fact he's kicked now seems just another stick to beat LJ. Shame about Cunningham too.

(I'm not sure we can agree on definition of 'bench warmer').

Ok- I'll try. It's someone who spends more time on the bench on match days than playing in them i.e. Tomlin at Cardiff so far.

so why were we playing unfit players? We've seen a big fat nothing from him in any game  since he arrived.

I guess because LJ didn't have the options in mid field. That IS his fault but doesn't make GON turn to shit.

(you could argue this was forced upon LJ by injury rather than judgement

Lee Johnson made it very very clear as to why he switched Bobby and did so from the off. Forty, you absolutely can't stick LJ and have made that very clear. However, it's not balanced to try and fit every deficiency at our club as a direct result of LJ.

 

[Fordy62]

1 minute ago, Marina's Rolls Royce said:

 

I was under the impression that Tomlin had played the majority of all of Cardiffs games. I can't be arsed to look it up, but I'm sure he's been regularly substituted at about 70 mins. 

And you're right, every deficiency isn't LJ's fault, they can't be. But more than a good share are... and shockingly, I'm not a fan. 

[Fordy62]

9 minutes ago, Shtanley said:

How many Cotts signings improved under Cotts. 

Wilbs, Korey, Freeman, Ayling, Little, Kodjia, hell, even Agard became a world beater. 

[Shtanley]

1 minute ago, Fordy62 said:

Wilbs, Korey, Freeman, Ayling, Little, Kodjia?

I think in hindsight it's a tough question due to the promotion. I think many of his best signings were instantly very good rather than improving over his tenure. 

[Major Isewater]

1 hour ago, cheshire_red said:

Re Hegeler, the question has to be therefore asked, why is he here?

He's probably asking the same thing ( but in German obviously )

[Fordy62]

1 minute ago, Shtanley said:

I think in hindsight it's a tough question due to the promotion. I think many of his best signings were instantly very good rather than improving over his tenure. 

I think they came together as a team instantly which I think is a form of improvement. 

Jesus, weren't they good times. 

[Shtanley]

14 minutes ago, Fordy62 said:

I think they came together as a team instantly which I think is a form of improvement. 

Jesus, weren't they good times. 

I'm only 21 so I'm yet to fully experience endless seasons of misery but I enjoyed the season after the double winning one more. Winning genuinely bored me come the end, a good relegation scrap always excites me more.