Jordan Henderson - what am I missing?

[reddogkev]

His name in the England squad, let alone the team, makes me shudder.  How does he continue to play for England?  Is this one of those mysterious cases of doing things off of the ball that no one but coaches and managers can see?  On the net, it claims he is high energy box-to-box midfielder who also uses the high press whenever the opposition has the ball.  I just don't see it.  He is slow, ponderous with the ball, rarely exciting in possession, and hardly shoots or does anything remotely of interest.

I am continually surprised whenever he plays for Liverpool and England - what am I missing?

[Tom Fleuriot]

I'd say the question is more about what England are missing. Our centre midfield options are awful right now. 

[Super]

9 minutes ago, reddogkev said:

His name in the England squad, let alone the team, makes me shudder.  How does he continue to play for England?  Is this one of those mysterious cases of doing things off of the ball that no one but coaches and managers can see?  On the net, it claims he is high energy box-to-box midfielder who also uses the high press whenever the opposition has the ball.  I just don't see it.  He is slow, ponderous with the ball, rarely exciting in possession, and hardly shoots or does anything remotely of interest.

I am continually surprised whenever he plays for Liverpool and England - what am I missing?

Why not start a thread on Stones, Walker, Sterling, The Ox as well. I'm not saying Henderson is a fantastic player but we have little other options in that position.

Waiting for the inevitable Korey Smith and Marlon Pack are better posts.....

[Taz]

Sums the state of English football up when many of the players mentioned so far are our best hope of winning anything.

This is what happens when the big clubs keep spending huge amounts on foreign imports - it prevents the progression of the young home grown talent.

[Carey 6]

16 minutes ago, Super said:

Why not start a thread on Stones, Walker, Sterling, The Ox as well. I'm not saying Henderson is a fantastic player but we have little other options in that position.

Waiting for the inevitable Korey Smith and Marlon Pack are better posts.....

Henderson isn't great, but yes you're correct we have nobody else really. Wilshere always plays well for England. I'd like to see him back in the set up. We also really miss Lallana. Oxlade Chamberlain should be nowhere near that squad. Completely shot of confidence at the moment. 

Sterling is a very good player. Ridiculous that Southgate chose to use him as a 10 on Thursday. Shows the huge difference between management when you see what Pep gets out of him and what Southgate does.

 

[wendyredredrobin]

Me too. I'm at a bit of a loss to see what hebrings to the team, but it's the sterile tactics that are the problem.  Yeah, keep it tight and don't conceed maybe when we play Germany or Spain, but against Lithuania?

[RedRock]

You are not missing anything. 

You've got to give it to the guy, it's like the 'Emperors Clothes' , fooled nearly everyone he's a talented footballer, earning eyewatering amounts of dosh per week . Actually, he's totally crap.  Sums up the great English player myth created by FA coaches. 'Technical player, keeps the ball moving, 100% passing accuracy'. 

No, he's really fooking crap. Just slows the game down and allows the opposition to build their defence in front of him, denying us any space. Totally, utterly crap. Destroys us as an attacking force and kills enjoyment value.

Southgate is blind to the fact the guy is a total waster. For that reason, he should go. 

[Roger Red Hat]

I seem to remember Nobby Styles regularly being slated for England, until we won the WC! 

[RedRock]

33 minutes ago, Super said:

Why not start a thread on Stones, Walker, Sterling, The Ox as well. I'm not saying Henderson is a fantastic player but we have little other options in that position.

Waiting for the inevitable Korey Smith and Marlon Pack are better posts.....

...or even worse, what about our reserves, someone like Maggers. 

Just imagine, a team full of Maggers. England would slaughter them.

 

Oh, hang on. Maybe a well-organised, committed, disciplined side could get a result. Maybe, even a country like Greece could win something. Nah. Dreamland. 

 

[RedRock]

5 minutes ago, Roger Red Hat said:

I seem to remember Nobby Styles regularly being slated for England, until we won the WC! 

Yeah, but he had some attributes. Got stuck in, won the ball. 

Seriously, aside from a capability of passing the ball sideways, or more likely backwards over a distance of 10 yards when not under any kind of pressure, I've yet to see anything Henderson brings to the party. 

[Super]

Phil Neville's England starting XI at the 2018 World Cup

[Luxo Jr.]

9 minutes ago, Moor2Sea said:

...or even worse, what about our reserves, someone like Maggers. 

Just imagine, a team full of Maggers. England would slaughter them.

 

Oh, hang on. Maybe a well-organised, committed, disciplined side could get a result. Maybe, even a country like Greece could win something. Nah. Dreamland. 

 

And here is the point. We don't press enough or contain enough to be either a great attacking or great defensive team, and we don't have wonder players who pull something out of nothing (yet - I actually think we're in a very strong place with youngsters, Rashford, Alli etc).

Henderson will always have to carry the weight of Gerrard on his shoulders with Liverpool and England. He's currently not in good form, but is a good defensive midfielder who, on his day can pick a good pass and keep the game ticking over. 

You know when England play two holding midfielders against Slovenia, and the attackers still have plenty of room, that the problem is with the tactics.

[nickolas]

23 minutes ago, Carey 6 said:

Henderson isn't great, but yes you're correct we have nobody else really. Wilshere always plays well for England. I'd like to see him back in the set up. We also really miss Lallana. Oxlade Chamberlain should be nowhere near that squad. Completely shot of confidence at the moment. 

Sterling is a very good player. Ridiculous that Southgate chose to use him as a 10 on Thursday. Shows the huge difference between management when you see what Pep gets out of him and what Southgate does.

 

Sterling couldnt beat an egg, let alone another full back!

£50m justshows how silly the market is for bang average wingers who cant even do a wingers job!

so much pace, so little use of it. 

[Roger Red Hat]

5 minutes ago, Super said:

Phil Neville's England starting XI at the 2018 World Cup

Amazing isn't it? Another fool who's played at the top level for all his career, can't see what a waster Henderson is, and puts him in his team. He should read this forum and learn, after all we all knew last season what an excellent coach LJ was.....err....err..

[BCFC11]

Never mind Henderson, England are shit all over the pitch, with the exception of Kane maybe. Be lucky to get out of the group stage in Russia.

[RedRock]

7 minutes ago, Luxo Jr. said:

And here is the point. We don't press enough or contain enough to be either a great attacking or great defensive team, and we don't have wonder players who pull something out of nothing (yet - I actually think we're in a very strong place with youngsters, Rashford, Alli etc).

Henderson will always have to carry the weight of Gerrard on his shoulders with Liverpool and England. He's currently not in good form, but is a good defensive midfielder who, on his day can pick a good pass and keep the game ticking over. 

You know when England play two holding midfielders against Slovenia, and the attackers still have plenty of room, that the problem is with the tactics.

Keeping the game 'ticking over' is just fine, if you have attacking intent. If those players with limited ability make short passes sideways and backwards to the talented players, it is they who need to quickly pick a pass and spring the opposition defence or, charge forward and create chaos and space for others to exploit.

We have no player in our midfield or defence who can perform the 'talented player' role. As a consequence, Henderson merely allows the opposition to form mass ranks of defenders which denies any space to our forward looking players. We end up then with our defenders and midfielders aimlessly hoofing it or being pressured and losing the ball. 

Frankly, Southgate's whole system is carp. Henderson is just the focus of the carpness. 

 

[Cowshed]

1 hour ago, reddogkev said:

His name in the England squad, let alone the team, makes me shudder.  How does he continue to play for England?  Is this one of those mysterious cases of doing things off of the ball that no one but coaches and managers can see?  On the net, it claims he is high energy box-to-box midfielder who also uses the high press whenever the opposition has the ball.  I just don't see it.  He is slow, ponderous with the ball, rarely exciting in possession, and hardly shoots or does anything remotely of interest.

I am continually surprised whenever he plays for Liverpool and England - what am I missing?

He continually plays for Liverpool for one of the greatest coaches in World football who was responsible for the high geggen press, maybe the man most responsible for the current trend of high tempo football and presses.

Rarely exciting in possession, and hardly shoots ...He is not meant to. Its get ball and pass to the more creative players and provide cover and balance. Its a Didier Deschamps role. He is not of that level but then neither is anybody else in any England position.

[Luxo Jr.]

6 minutes ago, Moor2Sea said:

Keeping the game 'ticking over' is just fine, if you have attacking intent. If those players with limited ability make short passes sideways and backwards to the talented players, it is they who need to quickly pick a pass and spring the opposition defence or, charge forward and create chaos and space for others to exploit.

We have no player in our midfield or defence who can perform the 'talented player' role. As a consequence, Henderson merely allows the opposition to form mass ranks of defenders which denies any space to our forward looking players. We end up then with our defenders and midfielders aimlessly hoofing it or being pressured and losing the ball. 

Frankly, Southgate's whole system is carp. Henderson is just the focus of the carpness. 

 

I agree, although I believe that Henderson can be the creative outlet too (as I said, this season he's been poor, but he often gets good assists for Liverpool).

I'm sure I'll end up sounding like a biased Liverpool follower now, but I think England have suffered as much as Liverpool with the loss of Lallana. He does everything - fantastic at pressing and winning back the ball, skilful, master of finding space between midfield and attack, and now scoring goals too. I'll try and redeem myself by saying that Alli, or even Barkley if he applies himself, could probably do this role too.

[Tipps69]

He’s there to do a job & that’s all he tends to do. By that, I mean he has a job to protect the back 3-4 but rather than try & influence the game more by getting into attacking positions, he stays very disciplined in the role he is given. Now if he were to go forward & get caught out of position & England concede a goal, the supporters & media would be on his back.

We have a team that are individuals who have their own jobs to do, Kane to score, Alli to link the midfield & attack, Henderson & Dier to protect the defence & Rashford / Sterling / Welbeck to give us pace.

Personally, I’d say the issue is the formation, against the majority of teams we’ve faced in this World Cups qualifying competition there has been absolutely no need for two holding defensive midfielders to protect our defence because the opposition we’ve played haven’t been forward thinking enough to bother us but everything is categorised into what everyone else is doing, 4-4-2, 4-2-3-1, 3-4-3, 4-3-3, 4-1-4-1, 4-1-3-2 & then we play the players to suit those formations irrespective of who we are playing!

Ideally, who would most go with? A keeper (obviously), 2 full-backs / wing-backs, 2 or 3 centre-half’s, 1 maybe 2 holding defensive midfielders, Alli & Kane. Against the likes of Malta, is there really a need for a back 4? Or 3 centre-half’s? Or if we do have 3 centre-half’s (more than I particularly believe we need), do we need 2 defensive central-midfielders?

In theory we could get away with 2 central-defenders, 2 forward thinking full-backs / wing-backs & then some more forward thinking midfielders to join Alli, Rashford & Kane as a front 3 or even putting Alli back into his original natural midfield position which would allow Vardy upfront with Rashford & Kane while giving us more attacking minded old style midfielders who can do more than just defend or stand in the hole behind a striker, not wasting 1 or 2 players to sit & protect when it isn’t needed. 

We need to get out of playing rigid formations & play more off the cuff, let other teams worry about what we have rather than us worrying about what other teams have (especially lesser footballing nations), let them have to adjust to mark us, not the other way round. If we lost a game while going down fighting & giving it a real go, the supporters would have something to get excited about instead of us getting knocked out of tournaments having had hardly any attempts on goal, we play scared stiff about conceding a goal instead of playing with the intention of us scoring 3,4 or more goals in a game & it’s all got very boring & monotonous & I feel really sorry for those that travel the world watching such dour football.

It would be like travelling around the world to watch cricket knowing that your team was playing in hope of getting a draw!! Pointless!!

[WECANDO]

Henderson is a bit of a workhorse but not very inspiring. Thought young Winks did well in his first game. Looked sharp and passed the ball quickly and accurately. Drinkwater is a better option than Henderson especially if Vardy is in the team. We have to look at our successful younger sides and get them in the team, just like the Germans do. It's no good picking the same players who continually fail to fail again. As for our Henderson equivalent, that's Smith for you. 

[cider-manc]

3 minutes ago, Luxo Jr. said:

I agree, although I believe that Henderson can be the creative outlet too (as I said, this season he's been poor, but he often gets good assists for Liverpool).

I'm sure I'll end up sounding like a biased Liverpool follower now, but I think England have suffered as much as Liverpool with the loss of Lallana. He does everything - fantastic at pressing and winning back the ball, skilful, master of finding space between midfield and attack, and now scoring goals too. I'll try and redeem myself by saying that Alli, or even Barkley if he applies himself, could probably do this role too.

I genuinely believe that Adam Lallana is Englands best player. Technically he is miles ahead of everyone else we've got.

 

Henderson is getting a raw deal on here. He does exactly what he is told to do- in that sense he is a managers dream and there is a reason the likes of Klopp pick him every week.

[Luxo Jr.]

3 minutes ago, cider-manc said:

I genuinely believe that Adam Lallana is Englands best player. Technically he is miles ahead of everyone else we've got.

 

Henderson is getting a raw deal on here. He does exactly what he is told to do- in that sense he is a managers dream and there is a reason the likes of Klopp pick him every week.

Agreed, though if Alli improves the pressing side of his game, he'll be even better I think. Lallana is a workhorse and a creative player who has great vision - those sorts of players don't come around too often. 

[Abraham Romanovich]

26 minutes ago, BCFC11 said:

Never mind Henderson, England are shit all over the pitch, with the exception of Kane maybe. Be lucky to get out of the group stage in Russia.

The first thing Southgate should do is get on the phone to Pochettino and find out where he is going wrong, England have a core of Tottenham players who play exciting attacking football whilst England don't.

Just stick with the nucleus of Spurs players fill in the blanks and adopt Tottenham's mindset.

[NOTBLUE]

Another marmite player.

[RedRock]

Well, if he's doing what he's told, then it is Southgate who needs the chop. If he can't see the negative effect that his instructions are having on our game then he shouldn't be in the job.

A major part of our problem is that we believe the hype, that we've got 'great players' as they play in the 'best league in the world'. We haven't, they're bang average. Infact, the worst England squad I've known in 50 years by a country mile. 

So, in the short term, we should play to your strengths, mindful of our very limited abilities. Don't try to copy the Germans or Spanish, they will slaughter us when we get to the competitions (no doubt we will win or draw the friendlies). Play a unique system and tactics that fits our capabilities, with Lady Luck we could just surprise teams and win something.

More likely in the search for a trophy, we can just hope (with some justification) those following up behind are more gifted and focused - a golden generation - and can lift us into the top tier of football nations. 

 

[bcfcnick]

I could see Stones playing in midfield and I think he would be better suited there but he'd have to be playing there for his club before it was tried internationally.

I thought the last match was a wasted opportunity.  Fine to play three at the back but why play two wide players who can't go past a player? On that point it was an odd decision to play Sterling as a number 10.

Henderson is far from inspiring and I don't know why Southgate has persisted with playing two holding midfield players when playing teams who often play 11 behind the ball.  

It's unfortunate that probably the most two most naturally talented attacking midfield players available for England have a self destruct button - Ravel Morrison and Jack Wilshere. Maybe the latter will see the light and avoid wasting his career.  I see that Wenger has given him three months to save his career with Arsenal.  England don't have goals from central midfield and before we had 20 club goals a season players (Lampard) and Gerrard with a decent goal ration even though they couldn't play effectively together of course.  

England do have a fair quota of flair players but we don't get the best out of them .  It's a question of playing the right system, getting the right balance and getting them to play with the freedom and ability they demonstrate at club level.  If it's a mental issue then I am not sure Southgate has the managerial skills to get them to relax and express themselves.

People criticise Sterling and Stones but I bow to the choice of probably the best club manager in the world. With money no object they get regular game time.

Southgate seems a decent man but, rather than get on the 'phone to Pochettino, I'd actually like to see the latter manage the side for the World Cup tournament. Otherwise it's just going to be a case of qualifying with ease and getting knocked out of the tournament with equal ease.

[steveybadger]

1 hour ago, Carey 6 said:

Henderson isn't great, but yes you're correct we have nobody else really. Wilshere always plays well for England. I'd like to see him back in the set up. We also really miss Lallana. Oxlade Chamberlain should be nowhere near that squad. Completely shot of confidence at the moment. 

Sterling is a very good player. Ridiculous that Southgate chose to use him as a 10 on Thursday. Shows the huge difference between management when you see what Pep gets out of him and what Southgate does.

 

Man City have much better players around him which explains different performance levels to a degree (see also the sanctified Stevie G) but he still looks headless chicken like to me and his first touch is poor for somebody whose dribbling is his supposed strong suit. IMHO

[Luxo Jr.]

3 minutes ago, steveybadger said:

Man City have much better players around him which explains different performance levels to a degree (see also the sanctified Stevie G) but he still looks headless chicken like to me and his first touch is poor for somebody whose dribbling is his supposed strong suit. IMHO

Really? Gerrard? Come on. Gerrard was carrying that Liverpool team by himself on occasions. Sure, he had Alonso and Mascherano alongside him for some of those years, but that doesn't diminish his own achievements. 

Surely the fact that England's midfield options are so slim now should make clear how special a player Gerrard was.

[Super]

5 minutes ago, Luxo Jr. said:

Really? Gerrard? Come on. Gerrard was carrying that Liverpool team by himself on occasions. Sure, he had Alonso and Mascherano alongside him for some of those years, but that doesn't diminish his own achievements. 

Surely the fact that England's midfield options are so slim now should make clear how special a player Gerrard was.

Think Gerrard will admit himself he never really played as well for England as he did for his club, having said that who has over the past 20-30 years.

[Luxo Jr.]

5 minutes ago, Super said:

Think Gerrard will admit himself he never really played as well for England as he did for his club, having said that who has over the past 20-30 years.

Precisely. We had a golden generation of players during those years. Who, truthfully, played to their full potential for England consistently? Basically Ashley Cole and Peter Crouch. That's not a coincidence, and arguably not their fault. 

[EnderMB]

First things first, England's problems don't stem from a lack of quality on the field. Henderson might not be a world-class talent, but he does well for Liverpool. Most of the players in the England squad do well for their clubs. England have two key issues that mean the national team will never be successful.

First, the FA have failed to get enough coaches into the game. Southgate is a poor choice for national team manager, but in reality who else is there? There are probably 2-3 other English managers that could take on the job, and bar maybe Big Sam and Redknapp most of the other choices would see it as damaging to their career. I can't see Howe or Clement wanting the job, and Pardew is another person that shouldn't be anywhere near the job. Outside of those names that leaves Dyche, and he'd probably say it was too early for him too. For me, Paul Clement is exactly the sort of coaches we need in the game, and based on media observations of what it's like to train for your coaching badges, it looks like the FA is actively against anyone other than high-profile ex-professionals going into coaching. The FA in general needs a complete overhaul.

Second, outside of Kane and maybe Rashford, our players are nothing more than squad players for Premier League sides. They're a collection of players that can fit into a club system, but aren't good enough to progress outside of that system. They play well for their teams because they have world-class coaches working full-time that are required to embed English players into a system. These players, and by proxy the FA rely on the strength of the Premier League because our players aren't willing to move abroad and play European football in a country without a nandos down the road.

Many of our better players have peaked, like Henderson. Our younger talent gets fewer minutes than many other leading nations, and that's because they'd rather sit on a Premier League bench than play a higher standard of football elsewhere. Until both of these issues are addressed, England will continue to fail as a footballing nation.

[Meh]

2 hours ago, Moor2Sea said:

You are not missing anything. 

You've got to give it to the guy, it's like the 'Emperors Clothes' , fooled nearly everyone he's a talented footballer, earning eyewatering amounts of dosh per week . Actually, he's totally crap.  Sums up the great English player myth created by FA coaches. 'Technical player, keeps the ball moving, 100% passing accuracy'. 

No, he's really fooking crap. Just slows the game down and allows the opposition to build their defence in front of him, denying us any space. Totally, utterly crap. Destroys us as an attacking force and kills enjoyment value.

Southgate is blind to the fact the guy is a total waster. For that reason, he should go. 

Bit "sat on the fence" there aren't you?

[Cowshed]

15 minutes ago, EnderMB said:

First, the FA have failed to get enough coaches into the game. Southgate is a poor choice for national team manager, but in reality who else is there? There are probably 2-3 other English managers that could take on the job, and bar maybe Big Sam and Redknapp most of the other choices would see it as damaging to their career. I can't see Howe or Clement wanting the job, and Pardew is another person that shouldn't be anywhere near the job. Outside of those names that leaves Dyche, and he'd probably say it was too early for him too. For me, Paul Clement is exactly the sort of coaches we need in the game, and based on media observations of what it's like to train for your coaching badges, it looks like the FA is actively against anyone other than high-profile ex-professionals going into coaching. The FA in general needs a complete overhaul.

.

Historically it is true that the FA have failed to create a coaching framework in line with European top nations, but the FA do fast track all pros to Eufa licence level if they wish to coach at that level.

The FA does need an overhaul but the role of the EPL in English football has to be included. The FA is subservient to the EPL. The FA's coaching programme is subservient to the EPL elite player programme, and it is the EPL that blocks attempts to overhaul coaching structure  from grass roots up in line with foreign nations.

[Nongazeuse]

In the spirit of objectivity let me think of some of Henderson's good points:

• He is very fit as he spends so much practice running aimlessly in circles
• He looks smart and  never gets his kit muddy as he doesn't tackle
• He encourages younger players by continually waving pointless instructions
• He doesn't need to work on a goal-scoring celebration routine as it will never happen
• He has a large bank balance despite having no discernible football talent

 

[petehinton]

I hate him.

Gangly, thinks he's Roy Keane, runs like he's shit himself, can't tackle, bad in the air, hardly gets any assists/goals...

Think i've made my point  

[Esmond Million's Bung]

The problem with England is the amount of caps being handed out to bang average players is mind boggling.

Englands back 3 and wing backs against Lithuania were not of international standard and neither is Henderson.

Sterling, Ali, Sturridge and Rashford as soon as they put on their England shirts forget that football is a team game.

Yes we had already qualified but could you see Germany adopting such negative and boring attitude against an international team who play in a park? and that is the difference all of our European rivals have big stars but still manage to play like a team and leave their ego's in the dressing room, England do not and have not for far too many years and are far to negative especially when you accept the individual talent available where it counts.

[Jack Dawe]

3 hours ago, reddogkev said:

 

I am continually surprised whenever he plays for Liverpool and England - what am I missing?

You are missing a Liverpool season ticket, mate. And a club Wembley/ England membership (or whatever it's called). If you were to see him live, in person, then you would see what you cannot see by only ever watching him on the telly. Apparently.

[reddogkev]

15 minutes ago, Jack Dawe said:

You are missing a Liverpool season ticket, mate. And a club Wembley/ England membership (or whatever it's called). If you were to see him live, in person, then you would see what you cannot see by only ever watching him on the telly. Apparently.

Yep, tis true, I would have a better understanding of his level of mediocrity.  I did scrutinise his actions for the last 2 England games and I saw nothing to impress me.  Recall one moment on Thurs when he received the ball in the middle - quite an attacking position - even close enough to have a pop at goal, and he played a bobble of a side pass out to Walker, which then led to nothing. 

[marcus]

2 hours ago, JonDolman said:

I think henderson is one of those players who always seems to play quite well. Not brilliant. But doesnt let us down like some others do. 

I used to agree but last night he just gave the ball away time and time again with his stupid Hollywood passes.

[Trueredsupporter]

4 hours ago, reddogkev said:

His name in the England squad, let alone the team, makes me shudder.  How does he continue to play for England?  Is this one of those mysterious cases of doing things off of the ball that no one but coaches and managers can see?  On the net, it claims he is high energy box-to-box midfielder who also uses the high press whenever the opposition has the ball.  I just don't see it.  He is slow, ponderous with the ball, rarely exciting in possession, and hardly shoots or does anything remotely of interest.

I am continually surprised whenever he plays for Liverpool and England - what am I missing?

He looks decent alongside better players at Liverpool and would alongside a Ozil Mata Eriksen Silva and the rest of the Premier league playmakers who are not English. That the problem England don't have these players. Think Henderson gest the flack for not being as good as Sergio Busquets. A good league player amongst others in a very ordinary national team.

[pillred]

4 hours ago, Moor2Sea said:

You are not missing anything. 

You've got to give it to the guy, it's like the 'Emperors Clothes' , fooled nearly everyone he's a talented footballer, earning eyewatering amounts of dosh per week . Actually, he's totally crap.  Sums up the great English player myth created by FA coaches. 'Technical player, keeps the ball moving, 100% passing accuracy'. 

No, he's really fooking crap. Just slows the game down and allows the opposition to build their defence in front of him, denying us any space. Totally, utterly crap. Destroys us as an attacking force and kills enjoyment value.

Southgate is blind to the fact the guy is a total waster. For that reason, he should go. 

I think that you off his Christmas card list!!

[TV Tom]

Playing Henderson & Dier in the same team in a home game against the mighty Slovenia the other night says it all really.

[TV Tom]

While we have dinosaurs like Southgate and Boothroyd running our teams what hope is there? English managers are not rated good enough to manage our top club teams so why should it be any different for the national team? 

[marmite]

The last 2 England games have been amongst the worst national team performances I have seen for years. Yes I know we had already qualified bar for miracle results, but the performances were dire. Players had the chance to step up to the plate and show what they had to offer, and they offered nothing. Maybe it was tactics but we just looked clueless. I switched on last night when our National Anthem was playing but thought they were showing the Lithuanian team. Faces I did not recognise were winning England caps! That's supposed to be the pinnacle of a players career. I could win a cap today and I only played local league football. I admit to not watching too much Prem footy on the telly but I thought I would at least know the names if not the faces. Winning England caps has become farcical. Going back to the original point , if Jordan Henderson is the answer, what the fork is the question!!! Save your money any fans thinking of going to Russia.

[Judda]

All the players are decent enough. It's the dull tactics by the dull manager and that's all there is to it.

[Nibor]

Henderson's an average midfielder, a good athlete and has a perfect attitude.  He shouldn't be anywhere near the England team.  The reason he is lies in the number of minutes on the pitch that young English players get, something the FA will not fix any time soon for fear of upsetting the big clubs.

[Gillies Downs Leeds]

Heard Southgate say he only had 36 players to choose from, as that was the number that started the last round of Premier league games. Why do the players HAVE to come from the Premier league teams?

[JasonM88]

10 minutes ago, Gillies Downs Leeds said:

Heard Southgate say he only had 36 players to choose from, as that was the number that started the last round of Premier league games. Why do the players HAVE to come from the Premier league teams?

Where else would they come from? Very very few English players play abroad. 

[Maltshoveller]

2 hours ago, Judda said:

All the players are decent enough. It's the dull tactics by the dull manager and that's all there is to it.

Sorry cant agree with that

One real top class player plus 10 just above average

[RedRock]

1 hour ago, JasonM88 said:

Where else would they come from? Very very few English players play abroad. 

The same place most 'also rans' get theirs from... the Championship. 

Congrats to Maggers on his qualification and O'Dowda on achieving the Play Offs. See, it can be done, even using our reserves. 

[Swede]

Well for a start until England picks its best players we won't do anything on the world stage.

I can't see what Henderson brings and when you have him AND Dier playing, well, it's just dire.

Jake Livermore would do both of their jobs.

Our midfield should be built around inventive players like Jack Wiltshire.

FA yes man Southgate is not bold enough tactically to drive us onto the next level.

[Tipps69]

2 hours ago, JasonM88 said:

Where else would they come from? Very very few English players play abroad. 

We have a decent crop of youngsters playing U21’s, U19’s, U17’s international football for England but are unable to get into their respective club sides first teams & the majority of them are ever likely to. 

Jadon Sancho, prime example, thought very highly throughout the football world but felt the need to leave Man City for Dortmund because of his likely lack of first team opportunities because of the likelihood of every Premier League club wanting to sign foreign players ahead of giving homegrown talent the opportunity at first team level.

Is there any substance to Tammy playing for Nigeria? Because that would arguably be our most prized asset & next most likely player to make it deciding that he’s more likely to make it playing for another nation!

Someone has to give these kids a real proper opportunity but when the ‘BIG’ clubs are stockpiling the talent & then expecting ridiculous fees for players because of potential rather than proven ability because they rarely get the opportunity at the top level.

And all of this is damaging the team that most fans worry about most, the England full-team.

[Davefevs]

12 hours ago, Luxo Jr. said:

And here is the point. We don't press enough or contain enough to be either a great attacking or great defensive team, and we don't have wonder players who pull something out of nothing (yet - I actually think we're in a very strong place with youngsters, Rashford, Alli etc).

Henderson will always have to carry the weight of Gerrard on his shoulders with Liverpool and England. He's currently not in good form, but is a good defensive midfielder who, on his day can pick a good pass and keep the game ticking over. 

You know when England play two holding midfielders against Slovenia, and the attackers still have plenty of room, that the problem is with the tactics.

Spot on all 3 paragraphs imho.

11 hours ago, Luxo Jr. said:

I agree, although I believe that Henderson can be the creative outlet too (as I said, this season he's been poor, but he often gets good assists for Liverpool).

I'm sure I'll end up sounding like a biased Liverpool follower now, but I think England have suffered as much as Liverpool with the loss of Lallana. He does everything - fantastic at pressing and winning back the ball, skilful, master of finding space between midfield and attack, and now scoring goals too. I'll try and redeem myself by saying that Alli, or even Barkley if he applies himself, could probably do this role too.

I heard a rumour that he’s struggled to come back from his heel injury.  

He certainly wasn’t great last night, but for anyone salivating over Winks, have a real look at his performance.  It was ordinary...and fair play to a 21 year old on his debut...but it was no better than anyone else.  There were a few (very) poor performances.  Alli and Rashford, our two brightest hopes were two of those.  How many times did Winks break the lines, in the freedom allowed by the industrious Henderson?  Okay, i’m Being a bit facetious, but in seriousness, Henderson tried to join in several times, Winks never ventured beyond his marker.  I’m not trying to be critical of Winks, but I think too many viewers got sucked into seeing a few sharp passes as being a wonder debut.

The tactics are all wrong, the selections are all wrong.  I enjoyed the Slovakia win, I hated the Slovenia and Lithuania one’s.

The players Southgate picks appear to play no better than the ones not selected / left out.

Is there a case for going for a club mentality, pick 23 players, and form a team / tactic / unit that strengthens through familiarity.

The Welsh and Irish (with lesser ‘supposed’ talent to choose) are forced into this approach and therefore pick a similarish starting eleven most (competitive) games.  Surely there’s something in this.

We chop and change.  Again I feel like i’m singling out Winks, But was there nobody else to play CM alongside Henderson who hasn’t been around the squad fairly regularly.  If not, then Southgate isn’t picking the right 23 each time, not\r is he actually working out who can play ‘his system’ and who can’t.

We desperately need to play at a quick tempo, yet want to pass it around for passing’s sake, allowing clever (if not talented) international opponents time to get behind the ball, knowing that we aren’t good enough to create.

Where did Kane’s goal be Slov come from...Walker intercepting high-up

Where did our penalty come from v Lith...a quick interchange 

You know those bang average sides that get to major finals and are tough to beat, but boring, and make the group stages a bit of a farce?  Well, that’s now us!

Makes me quite sad.

 

[CotswoldRed]

20 hours ago, reddogkev said:

His name in the England squad, let alone the team, makes me shudder.  How does he continue to play for England?  Is this one of those mysterious cases of doing things off of the ball that no one but coaches and managers can see?  On the net, it claims he is high energy box-to-box midfielder who also uses the high press whenever the opposition has the ball.  I just don't see it.  He is slow, ponderous with the ball, rarely exciting in possession, and hardly shoots or does anything remotely of interest.

I am continually surprised whenever he plays for Liverpool and England - what am I missing?

Been explaining the same to a few people recently. Liverpool will be forever average with him in the squad. 

[Super]

2 hours ago, CotswoldRed said:

Been explaining the same to a few people recently. Liverpool will be forever average with him in the squad. 

Especially as it looks like the best midfielder they have Emre Can is being allowed to leave.

[Cowshed]

9 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Spot on all 3 paragraphs imho.

I heard a rumour that he’s struggled to come back from his heel injury.  

He certainly wasn’t great last night, but for anyone salivating over Winks, have a real look at his performance.  It was ordinary...and fair play to a 21 year old on his debut...but it was no better than anyone else.  There were a few (very) poor performances.  Alli and Rashford, our two brightest hopes were two of those.  How many times did Winks break the lines, in the freedom allowed by the industrious Henderson?  Okay, i’m Being a bit facetious, but in seriousness, Henderson tried to join in several times, Winks never ventured beyond his marker.  I’m not trying to be critical of Winks, but I think too many viewers got sucked into seeing a few sharp passes as being a wonder debut.

The tactics are all wrong, the selections are all wrong.  I enjoyed the Slovakia win, I hated the Slovenia and Lithuania one’s.

The players Southgate picks appear to play no better than the ones not selected / left out.

Is there a case for going for a club mentality, pick 23 players, and form a team / tactic / unit that strengthens through familiarity.

The Welsh and Irish (with lesser ‘supposed’ talent to choose) are forced into this approach and therefore pick a similarish starting eleven most (competitive) games.  Surely there’s something in this.

We chop and change.  Again I feel like i’m singling out Winks, But was there nobody else to play CM alongside Henderson who hasn’t been around the squad fairly regularly.  If not, then Southgate isn’t picking the right 23 each time, not\r is he actually working out who can play ‘his system’ and who can’t.

We desperately need to play at a quick tempo, yet want to pass it around for passing’s sake, allowing clever (if not talented) international opponents time to get behind the ball, knowing that we aren’t good enough to create.

Where did Kane’s goal be Slov come from...Walker intercepting high-up

Where did our penalty come from v Lith...a quick interchange 

You know those bang average sides that get to major finals and are tough to beat, but boring, and make the group stages a bit of a farce?  Well, that’s now us!

Makes me quite sad.

 

The formation played v Slovakia was the same as v Slovenia. Slovakia played more open and the game given perception was more entertaining. The Slovenia game was dull they sat. Lithunainia , loads of of change but England struggled and laboured meh again. Struggling v teams sitting is not new. Slovenia England seven years ago was dull with superior players in England's XI.

It is hard to play higher tempo v teams that stay compact. Nil space nil tempo even for France and Germany with great players. England's one asset is pace and power and its the easiest for the opponents to manage.

Knowing that we aren’t good enough to create ... Yes. Invention. Movement. Incisive passing are not England's traits.

The Welsh and Irish (with lesser ‘supposed’ talent to choose) are forced into this approach and therefore pick a similarish starting eleven most (competitive) games.  Surely there’s something in this ... There is merit in. Glenn Hoddle has mentioned England becoming a less offensive team, stop the changes, playing deeper, and hitting teams on the break with the assets England do have - Pace and power. I can only image the gnashing and gnarling of fans who will not want to watch going down that highly conservative route.

You know those bang average sides that get to major finals and are tough to beat, but boring, and make the group stages a bit of a farce?  Well, that’s now us ... There it is above. It is not now. It has been for sometime. It is pragmatic football.

Mr Southgate is damned no matter what he does.

Makes me quite sad .. I find looking at it philosophically and practically does the opposite. It is interesting v enthralling, its more chess with Southgate looking for pieces with less pieces than his predecessors had. Success will be leaving (early) the World cup without stinking it out again ... Not much to live up to.

[steveybadger]

23 hours ago, Luxo Jr. said:

Really? Gerrard? Come on. Gerrard was carrying that Liverpool team by himself on occasions. Sure, he had Alonso and Mascherano alongside him for some of those years, but that doesn't diminish his own achievements. 

Surely the fact that England's midfield options are so slim now should make clear how special a player Gerrard was.

I'd say the times he really looked good were when the players you mention (amongst others) covered his weaknesses (positional indiscipline and tendency for the glory pass losing possession, eg) His really top performances were on the right wing at that point as Benitez thought him most effective there. His performances for England reflect the absence of these players.

Not saying he didn't have qualities but to me he was never a player to build a team around, like a Messi / Pirlo.

[Trueredsupporter]

13 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Spot on all 3 paragraphs imho.

I heard a rumour that he’s struggled to come back from his heel injury.  

He certainly wasn’t great last night, but for anyone salivating over Winks, have a real look at his performance.  It was ordinary...and fair play to a 21 year old on his debut...but it was no better than anyone else.  There were a few (very) poor performances.  Alli and Rashford, our two brightest hopes were two of those.  How many times did Winks break the lines, in the freedom allowed by the industrious Henderson?  Okay, i’m Being a bit facetious, but in seriousness, Henderson tried to join in several times, Winks never ventured beyond his marker.  I’m not trying to be critical of Winks, but I think too many viewers got sucked into seeing a few sharp passes as being a wonder debut.

The tactics are all wrong, the selections are all wrong.  I enjoyed the Slovakia win, I hated the Slovenia and Lithuania one’s.

The players Southgate picks appear to play no better than the ones not selected / left out.

Is there a case for going for a club mentality, pick 23 players, and form a team / tactic / unit that strengthens through familiarity.

The Welsh and Irish (with lesser ‘supposed’ talent to choose) are forced into this approach and therefore pick a similarish starting eleven most (competitive) games.  Surely there’s something in this.

We chop and change.  Again I feel like i’m singling out Winks, But was there nobody else to play CM alongside Henderson who hasn’t been around the squad fairly regularly.  If not, then Southgate isn’t picking the right 23 each time, not\r is he actually working out who can play ‘his system’ and who can’t.

We desperately need to play at a quick tempo, yet want to pass it around for passing’s sake, allowing clever (if not talented) international opponents time to get behind the ball, knowing that we aren’t good enough to create.

Where did Kane’s goal be Slov come from...Walker intercepting high-up

Where did our penalty come from v Lith...a quick interchange 

You know those bang average sides that get to major finals and are tough to beat, but boring, and make the group stages a bit of a farce?  Well, that’s now us!

Makes me quite sad.

 

Read the Iceland thread. Its depressing Iceland make more of what they have and have set themselves up to continue doing it.