Tactics wrong today -flint at goal kicks

[The Humble Realist]

So first of all perspective... we were never good enough to win the league after those 2 great away games and neither are we bad enough for relgation after one poor performance today so let's try and be constructive.  

I thought leeds outplayed us today and tactically were streets ahead. Number 25 Viera and his partner were all over pack and wouldn't give him anytime of the ball . I thought brownhill played as well as anyone but we were over run in centre mid with just pack and him there. 

The 2nd goal summed up our tactical niavity  (in this game) ...clearly saiz was dangerous and with LJ setting up with attacking wingers in COD and Leko he was given far too much space running at us 3 or 4 times in the first ten mins scoring his goal. 

I therefore found it remarkable that we kept taking flint our of position to the right wing on goal kicks when clearly leeds were having great joy in the space we were giving them....just a minute before the goal frankie missed his kick to flint and they ran at our goal...we then instantly repeated this and again the kick didn't get to flint. Leko was pushed up and leeds (unchallenged) ran at our defence. ..Flint couldn't get goal side and the clearance bobbled against wright and frankie before saiz scored. 

After conceding so early we should have sat back and kept our shape to get a foothold in the game and it very much reminded me of the first half of.the season under cotts 2 years ago where we were just too open against a good team.  

 

Hopefully we can learn and the next 5 games should be interesting with a real mix of games.

 

COYR

[Dr Balls]

Spotted this during the first half. Why pull Flint so far out of position ? Why not push Bailey Wright forward instead to do the same thing?

Their second goal came from the goal kick with Flint out of position and having to rush back. 

Can't say I ever want to see this particular tactic again.

[BCFC Rich]

12 minutes ago, Dr Balls said:

Spotted this during the first half. Why pull Flint so far out of position ? Why not push Bailey Wright forward instead to do the same thing?

Their second goal came from the goal kick with Flint out of position and having to rush back. 

Can't say I ever want to see this particular tactic again.

We've been doing it all season and it's mostly been successful. Flint is there not Baker because he is better in the air.

[Dr Balls]

16 minutes ago, BCFC Richard said:

We've been doing it all season and it's mostly been successful. Flint is there not Baker because he is better in the air.

Not with pulling Flint out of central defence we haven't and neither has Baker. We have been doing that thing with 1 defender either side of the penalty area at our goal kicks, and Frankie has tried to direct them towards Joe Bryan wide on the left. However that only seems to work about 10% of the time even with Joe's springy heels!

If we had been playing a target man upfront, Frankie could just have kicked it forward....

[SedRA]

9 minutes ago, Dr Balls said:

Not with pulling Flint out of central defence we haven't and neither has Baker. We have been doing that thing with 1 defender either side of the penalty area at our goal kicks, and Frankie has tried to direct them towards Joe Bryan wide on the left. However that only seems to work about 10% of the time even with Joe's springy heels!

If we had been playing a target man upfront, Frankie could just have kicked it forward....

We've been putting flint out wide on the halfway line for pretty much every goal kick all season. 
 

 

[BCFC Rich]

14 minutes ago, Dr Balls said:

Not with pulling Flint out of central defence we haven't and neither has Baker. We have been doing that thing with 1 defender either side of the penalty area at our goal kicks, and Frankie has tried to direct them towards Joe Bryan wide on the left. However that only seems to work about 10% of the time even with Joe's springy heels!

If we had been playing a target man upfront, Frankie could just have kicked it forward....

We have actually been doing this all season. Its even been talked about on here. 

[internetjef]

Just a quick observation on this. Is flint taking up the position that traditionally your right back would take up? 

If so the fact that he is just temporarily swapping with Bailey Wright shouldn't leave us short when it goes wrong as we would still have a genuine centreback (BW) covering in.

if that is the case then I don't have an issue with is , Flint way more likely to win the header than BW and they just swap for the kick and revert back when sensible.

if that is the case wonder if we will stop it when Eros is back, as he isn't a natural centreback. 

That said Flint is pretty far up, is he higher than you would even traditionally send your right back ?

[Lrrr]

Its worked well previously, Wright then slots into centre back and the right winger drops back a bit so we keep the same shape, as said Flint goes forward as he's the best at heading, why would you send someone not as good? We don't bother when aiming at the left wing generally as Bryan is excellent at winning headers. 

[The Humble Realist]

I understand the tactic and know we have done it all year but my complaint is that we didn't adjust to the situation of the game and stop doing it in light of the space we were giving leeds. 

We should have shut up shop for 15 mins to get ourselves back in the game after it was clear leeds were well on top but instead we ploughed on and conceded the 2nd 

[1960maaan]

11 hours ago, The Humble Realist said:

So first of all perspective... we were never good enough to win the league after those 2 great away games and neither are we bad enough for relgation after one poor performance today so let's try and be constructive.  

I thought leeds outplayed us today and tactically were streets ahead. Number 25 Viera and his partner were all over pack and wouldn't give him anytime of the ball . I thought brownhill played as well as anyone but we were over run in centre mid with just pack and him there. 

The 2nd goal summed up our tactical niavity  (in this game) ...clearly saiz was dangerous and with LJ setting up with attacking wingers in COD and Leko he was given far too much space running at us 3 or 4 times in the first ten mins scoring his goal. 

I therefore found it remarkable that we kept taking flint our of position to the right wing on goal kicks when clearly leeds were having great joy in the space we were giving them....just a minute before the goal frankie missed his kick to flint and they ran at our goal...we then instantly repeated this and again the kick didn't get to flint. Leko was pushed up and leeds (unchallenged) ran at our defence. ..Flint couldn't get goal side and the clearance bobbled against wright and frankie before saiz scored. 

After conceding so early we should have sat back and kept our shape to get a foothold in the game and it very much reminded me of the first half of.the season under cotts 2 years ago where we were just too open against a good team.  

 

Hopefully we can learn and the next 5 games should be interesting with a real mix of games.

 

COYR

I don't like the tactic, we have on occasion seen an almost cavalry charge situation , with their team and half our defence trying to get back.
Yesterday I put down a lot to selection, I've said elsewhere , Baker is a rock and Flint looks better with him and he obviously trusts him. Wright and Flint did a job last year but we looked scared to death when they attacked, to a level I've not seen for some time, probably since Cott's. I get what you say about keeping shape but one simple ball over the top and it fell apart. Hegeler is a good footballer (he did look better as he pushed on) but he looks far too laid back and looks as though he jogs everywhere. I think this added to Flints worse game for some time.  
They were decent , no more , we made them look good. There early goal went a long way to effecting the confidence, not sure it was on target before the deflection, then the panic was obvious for the second. By then the game was done, they didn't have to try too hard and by the time we started pressing they could hit us on the break.

10 hours ago, BCFC Richard said:

We've been doing it all season and it's mostly been successful. Flint is there not Baker because he is better in the air.

I'm no so sure. Works occasionally , but I'm still not sure how much we really gain from it. but if it doesn't come off it leaves us woefully short (literally) at the back. 
One other point , we are relying on FF's kicking which is amazing in the sheer distance he can spread it 

[The Dolman Pragmatist]

9 hours ago, hodge said:

Its worked well previously, Wright then slots into centre back and the right winger drops back a bit so we keep the same shape, as said Flint goes forward as he's the best at heading, why would you send someone not as good? We don't bother when aiming at the left wing generally as Bryan is excellent at winning headers. 

Yes, they've been trying it ever since Flint came back into the side (just below my seat in the Dolman so it's been very noticeable to us) but I strongly disagree that it's worked well previously, because Frankie's kicks have rarely found Flint (who has demonstrated considerable frustration once or twice about it).  As it let directly to the second goal yesterday, I sincerely hope we don't try it again!

[paulcityfan]

Flint was all over the pitch yesterday and seemed to have taken up a position just behind centre forward for large parts of the game. Then a few minutes later he was the last defender making crucial blocks, including the block when Frankie had charged out and committed.  Despite losing the ball initially for the first goal and being involved in the defensive fluff for the second he was still immense.  Stand out player in an overall bad team performance for me.

[JoeAman08]

10 hours ago, internetjef said:

Just a quick observation on this. Is flint taking up the position that traditionally your right back would take up? 

If so the fact that he is just temporarily swapping with Bailey Wright shouldn't leave us short when it goes wrong as we would still have a genuine centreback (BW) covering in.

if that is the case then I don't have an issue with is , Flint way more likely to win the header than BW and they just swap for the kick and revert back when sensible.

if that is the case wonder if we will stop it when Eros is back, as he isn't a natural centreback. 

That said Flint is pretty far up, is he higher than you would even traditionally send your right back ?

That and Pisano is very good in the air himself. Nobody is Flint but Pisano can do that job they're asking flint to do. Also, we have been doing it a lot this season but I don't remember it before Pisano's injury. First time I saw it was Reading away which was one of the first games he missed. That day Vyner was at RB. 

[BigAl&Toby]

14 hours ago, The Humble Realist said:

So first of all perspective... we were never good enough to win the league after those 2 great away games and neither are we bad enough for relgation after one poor performance today so let's try and be constructive.  

I thought leeds outplayed us today and tactically were streets ahead. Number 25 Viera and his partner were all over pack and wouldn't give him anytime of the ball . I thought brownhill played as well as anyone but we were over run in centre mid with just pack and him there. 

The 2nd goal summed up our tactical niavity  (in this game) ...clearly saiz was dangerous and with LJ setting up with attacking wingers in COD and Leko he was given far too much space running at us 3 or 4 times in the first ten mins scoring his goal. 

I therefore found it remarkable that we kept taking flint our of position to the right wing on goal kicks when clearly leeds were having great joy in the space we were giving them....just a minute before the goal frankie missed his kick to flint and they ran at our goal...we then instantly repeated this and again the kick didn't get to flint. Leko was pushed up and leeds (unchallenged) ran at our defence. ..Flint couldn't get goal side and the clearance bobbled against wright and frankie before saiz scored. 

After conceding so early we should have sat back and kept our shape to get a foothold in the game and it very much reminded me of the first half of.the season under cotts 2 years ago where we were just too open against a good team.  

 

Hopefully we can learn and the next 5 games should be interesting with a real mix of games.

 

COYR

Spot on. Flint was at fault for the first two. Might work in training with the wayward kicking of Frankie but to **** up twice like that in the first 15 minutes showed up our frailties and naivety.

 

[BigAl&Toby]

2 hours ago, paulcityfan said:

Flint was all over the pitch yesterday and seemed to have taken up a position just behind centre forward for large parts of the game. Then a few minutes later he was the last defender making crucial blocks, including the block when Frankie had charged out and committed.  Despite losing the ball initially for the first goal and being involved in the defensive fluff for the second he was still immense.  Stand out player in an overall bad team performance for me.

Bollocks was he.

Why set up a centre back when you’re playing Hegeler on the far right and on the half way line for a goal kick?

And having done it once and conceded why the hell would you do it again? 

Ball was lost on both occasions out wide, simply played back in to where centre backs should have been and we concede. Twice.

[Roe]

4 hours ago, The Humble Realist said:

I understand the tactic and know we have done it all year but my complaint is that we didn't adjust to the situation of the game and stop doing it in light of the space we were giving leeds. 

We should have shut up shop for 15 mins to get ourselves back in the game after it was clear leeds were well on top but instead we ploughed on and conceded the 2nd 

Yeah exactly this.  It's this kind of naivety that annoys me the most.  It's not even that we had to shut up shop, we just needed to be smarter, hold our positions better and allow ourselves time to grow into the game.  We didn't do this, got caught again and faced a bigger uphill battle from that point on.

[Nogbad the Bad]

5 hours ago, paulcityfan said:

Flint was all over the pitch yesterday and seemed to have taken up a position just behind centre forward for large parts of the game. Then a few minutes later he was the last defender making crucial blocks, including the block when Frankie had charged out and committed.  Despite losing the ball initially for the first goal and being involved in the defensive fluff for the second he was still immense.  Stand out player in an overall bad team performance for me.

You're right of course, Flint did well overall, but let's not see anyone (including LJ) championing  Hegeler as a Championship standard CB again.

He's nothing more than an inadequate filler in at CB, and it was worrying to hear LJ say on RB afterwards - when justifying JH's inclusion - that he'd played in that position 50 times previously, when his career stats given on a previous thread do not seem to back that up.

Truly amazing LJ chose Hegeler ahead of current international Magnússon, and considering just how inadequate his defensive partner was I'd say Flint still gave a good personal performance overall.

If one of Magnússon or Hegeler is to leave the club - and HM for some reason seems the clear favourite - I'd hope it would be be Hegeler.

[Harry]

3 hours ago, BigAlToby&Liam said:

Bollocks was he.

Why set up a centre back when you’re playing Hegeler on the far right and on the half way line for a goal kick?

And having done it once and conceded why the hell would you do it again? 

Ball was lost on both occasions out wide, simply played back in to where centre backs should have been and we concede. Twice.

Oh no. You mentioned a German and 'far right' in the same sentence. What ARE you thinking man. 

[Cardy]

The tactic is pointless given Frankie's complete inability to kick accurately. Without doubt this led directly to their second goal yesterday & infact nearly cost us a goal 5 mins previous. Tactical naivety at its worst I would suggest!

[42nite]

Not seeing any live games since we've been doing this, can I ask if anything positive has come from it?

So, the aim is for Flint to flick the ball down the wing? I remember this being tried with Bryan on the left, but the ball generally went out for a throw to the opposition, or Bryan getting clattered by defenders jumping into him.

Has anything positive ever come from this?

If it's to try and set up a threat on goal, why not just move Flint up a few yards into the centre circle and  let him flick on from there?  

Sounds like a lot of disruption for minimal benefit to me.

[BigAl&Toby]

We’ve been trying it for most of this season. Doesn’t work as FF can rarely hit the target.

I’m not convinced Flint should be that target anyway - until we’re a few goals ahead.

Last night with accurate kicking and Đurić and Taylor it worked a treat and not only got us back in it but it turned the game around.

Tactic ok against the right opponents at the right time with the right players playing it.

Hopelessly optimistic at any other time.