John Venables - Scum bag!!

[nebristolred]

1 hour ago, Tipps69 said:

And sounds very much like rewarding naughtiness with a reward, very much like sending reoffending youngsters on camp for stealing cars & joyriding, which to me is just ridiculous, sorry!

Rewarding someone for bad behaviour just means that that someone will continue to misbehave until they are rewarded again because it’s worked in the past so it’ll work again. Whereas if I misbehaved when I was young, I knew about it & I sure as hell knew not to do it again unless I wanted to be punished again!! And for the record, I very rarely, if ever, made the same mistake twice! And I never went away on holiday for being bad either!

Your post is based on the premise that ex-criminals get rewarded. What is rewarding about going to prison but making sure you're also rehabilitated properly?

As scummy as Venables and Thompson are, the state has clearly failed the former in some ways. He has clearly not been treated properly, straight from the adult criminal trial when he was 10, to the most-likely substandard treatment he received while serving his sentence. I'm not feeling sorry for him. I'm just stating the way I see it.

[Tipps69]

19 minutes ago, nebristolred said:

Your post is based on the premise that ex-criminals get rewarded. What is rewarding about going to prison but making sure you're also rehabilitated properly?

As scummy as Venables and Thompson are, the state has clearly failed the former in some ways. He has clearly not been treated properly, straight from the adult criminal trial when he was 10, to the most-likely substandard treatment he received while serving his sentence. I'm not feeling sorry for him. I'm just stating the way I see it.

How much of their original punishment was spent in an adult prison? For the crime they committed, they basically got away with murder & not just something as simple as one stab with a knife or one shot of a gun to someone who had tortured him previously but a prolonged attack on an innocent 2 year-old!! And if they wanted to be rehabilitated, they had plenty of time to try & put wrong their rights, which it can be safe to say Venables hasn’t.

[nebristolred]

2 hours ago, Tipps69 said:

How much of their original punishment was spent in an adult prison? For the crime they committed, they basically got away with murder & not just something as simple as one stab with a knife or one shot of a gun to someone who had tortured him previously but a prolonged attack on an innocent 2 year-old!! And if they wanted to be rehabilitated, they had plenty of time to try & put wrong their rights, which it can be safe to say Venables hasn’t.

I haven't disagreed with you on the first part at all, I completely agree. The final part has no relevance - it was not down to whether they wanted to be rehabilitated at the age of 10. That's part of the whole issue.

[Tipps69]

2 hours ago, nebristolred said:

I haven't disagreed with you on the first part at all, I completely agree. The final part has no relevance - it was not down to whether they wanted to be rehabilitated at the age of 10. That's part of the whole issue.

Well it is because if you know you’ve done something wrong, you’d want to try & do something to make up for your mistake (or the vast majority of people would want to), any parent of a child who has committed a crime would undoubtedly be telling their child what they need to do to try & make things right & this wouldn’t / shouldn’t be a one off conversation, this would probably be drilled into them during every visit & phone call. 

Plus staff would be there to do similar, at no point would they of been made aware that what they had done was acceptable yet still Venables continues to flaunt the law & stick 2 fingers up to everyone! Maybe he simply has no morals?!?

[nebristolred]

15 hours ago, Tipps69 said:

Well it is because if you know you’ve done something wrong, you’d want to try & do something to make up for your mistake (or the vast majority of people would want to), any parent of a child who has committed a crime would undoubtedly be telling their child what they need to do to try & make things right & this wouldn’t / shouldn’t be a one off conversation, this would probably be drilled into them during every visit & phone call. 

Plus staff would be there to do similar, at no point would they of been made aware that what they had done was acceptable yet still Venables continues to flaunt the law & stick 2 fingers up to everyone! Maybe he simply has no morals?!?

The point you made was in relation to me mentioning the state had failed Venables somewhat. While you do have to 'want' to be rehabilitated in many ways, neither you or I are in a position to check whether that is correct. Just because he has re-offended doesn't automatically mean he refused any help, or that he was in any way troublesome. The fact is, we don't know, so we cannot pass judgment. Given the way the case was handled in the first place, I'd have had zero confidence in the state to treat him how he should have been with regards to assistance.

With all due respect mate, you're showing a massive lack of understanding of how rehabilitation would work and basic psychology in general. The simple viewpoint you seem to have in your mind is not reflective of the actual truth of the situation. A 10 year old does not possess the same mental instincts and attributes surrounding empathy, shame, regret and a willingness to 'fix' things as an 18 year old would. Regardless of whether he knew what he was doing was correct or not - a questions which is seemingly always asked and yet is far too simple to conclude on.

[Tipps69]

1 hour ago, nebristolred said:

The point you made was in relation to me mentioning the state had failed Venables somewhat. While you do have to 'want' to be rehabilitated in many ways, neither you or I are in a position to check whether that is correct. Just because he has re-offended doesn't automatically mean he refused any help, or that he was in any way troublesome. The fact is, we don't know, so we cannot pass judgment. Given the way the case was handled in the first place, I'd have had zero confidence in the state to treat him how he should have been with regards to assistance.

With all due respect mate, you're showing a massive lack of understanding of how rehabilitation would work and basic psychology in general. The simple viewpoint you seem to have in your mind is not reflective of the actual truth of the situation. A 10 year old does not possess the same mental instincts and attributes surrounding empathy, shame, regret and a willingness to 'fix' things as an 18 year old would. Regardless of whether he knew what he was doing was correct or not - a questions which is seemingly always asked and yet is far too simple to conclude on.

Sorry but how old is he now, 35? 25 years since his original offence & surely at some point in the last 25 years he has thought to himself “how the **** could I do that to a baby, let alone another human being of any age”? But instead he has gone on to get caught with numerous child abuse images, not once but a few times even though he would of been aware that he was being watched by the authorities because of just how bad his crime was at 10 years-old!!

Anyone with half an ounce of remorse would of realised that what they did & what he continues to do is WRONG! But he continues with it, showing absolutely no remorse! And that just backs up my point that he should of never been allowed out, he is clearly still a threat to the public in general & children in particular!

As someone who has never had a fight or ever been in trouble with the police in anyway, if he (or anyone for that matter) got anywhere near my 14 year-old daughter, I would make it my life’s goal to destroy whoever!! There is no way I would be able to live my life knowing that he (or someone similar) is walking about with freedom to destroy someone else’s life!! And to put it into perspective, their actions against James didn’t just destroy James’ life, it would of destroyed many people’s lives & these child abuse images he has been caught with, won’t of just destroyed one innocent child’s life for an hour or so, it will of destroyed thousands of people’s lives for a lifetime, yet this scumbag knows nothing major is going to happen to him & he’ll be released again to destroy even more people’s lives! It’s wrong & he shows no signs of giving a shit & in essence he could have another 40 years of doing even more damage!!

The authorities are aware of what he’s done & what he continues to do & no end of telling him what a naughty boy he’s been is changing his behaviour, one innocent life ruined is one innocent life too many, they’ve got to put a stop to the potential harm this one individual is doing & has done for at least 25 years!

[nebristolred]

17 hours ago, Tipps69 said:

Sorry but how old is he now, 35? 25 years since his original offence & surely at some point in the last 25 years he has thought to himself “how the **** could I do that to a baby, let alone another human being of any age”? But instead he has gone on to get caught with numerous child abuse images, not once but a few times even though he would of been aware that he was being watched by the authorities because of just how bad his crime was at 10 years-old!!

I agree, I haven't onced argued against this point. I don't understand why you're arguing against something which wasn't said?

17 hours ago, Tipps69 said:

Anyone with half an ounce of remorse would of realised that what they did & what he continues to do is WRONG! But he continues with it, showing absolutely no remorse! And that just backs up my point that he should of never been allowed out, he is clearly still a threat to the public in general & children in particular!

We don't know if he has shown remorse. He could genuinely have a mental illness which he is desperately trying to fight, but that said, he has clearly gone past the point of the benefit of the doubt. This is why I say the state has failed him. His treatment has clearly not been adequate and if that's the case (i.e. he's not fit for society) then he shouldn't have been allowed out.

17 hours ago, Tipps69 said:

As someone who has never had a fight or ever been in trouble with the police in anyway, if he (or anyone for that matter) got anywhere near my 14 year-old daughter, I would make it my life’s goal to destroy whoever!! There is no way I would be able to live my life knowing that he (or someone similar) is walking about with freedom to destroy someone else’s life!! And to put it into perspective, their actions against James didn’t just destroy James’ life, it would of destroyed many people’s lives & these child abuse images he has been caught with, won’t of just destroyed one innocent child’s life for an hour or so, it will of destroyed thousands of people’s lives for a lifetime, yet this scumbag knows nothing major is going to happen to him & he’ll be released again to destroy even more people’s lives! It’s wrong & he shows no signs of giving a shit & in essence he could have another 40 years of doing even more damage!!

The authorities are aware of what he’s done & what he continues to do & no end of telling him what a naughty boy he’s been is changing his behaviour, one innocent life ruined is one innocent life too many, they’ve got to put a stop to the potential harm this one individual is doing & has done for at least 25 years!

Now this is just repeating hyperbole. He was 10 years old when he committed that crime. 10. I'm sorry but that deserves a different approach with regard to the original crime. All of his offences since, as they were committed by an adult, should be treated as so.

I honestly think we're not far off the same page apart from the final bit, but you seem to have argued against points I've not actually made on a couple of occasions.

[Tipps69]

49 minutes ago, nebristolred said:

I agree, I haven't onced argued against this point. I don't understand why you're arguing against something which wasn't said?

We don't know if he has shown remorse. He could genuinely have a mental illness which he is desperately trying to fight, but that said, he has clearly gone past the point of the benefit of the doubt. This is why I say the state has failed him. His treatment has clearly not been adequate and if that's the case (i.e. he's not fit for society) then he shouldn't have been allowed out.

Now this is just repeating hyperbole. He was 10 years old when he committed that crime. 10. I'm sorry but that deserves a different approach with regard to the original crime. All of his offences since, as they were committed by an adult, should be treated as so.

I honestly think we're not far off the same page apart from the final bit, but you seem to have argued against points I've not actually made on a couple of occasions.

But reported in his original offence was that James was found with batteries inserted in his back passage!! This by 10 year-old, how or why would any 10 year-olds have any inclination to putting things in someone’s back passage let alone all the other physical stoning, bricking & beating etc? And yet he still has some desires towards child abuse!

Sorry but I just don’t buy into this ‘the state have let them down’, who exactly would be trained to deal with children doing what they did? They have been treated better than they deserve (in my opinion) & they have repaid society how?

For the record, I’ve had the affects of child / sexual abuse to deal with, one of my best friends was sexually attacked 30 years ago or so & things got so bad that they had to move to the other side of the world about 15 years ago to try & start again, I seen them for the first time since they moved away over Christmas & they are still trying to deal with what happened!! This happened while we were at school, we’re now in our mid 40’s!! If I could of caught the piece of shit that had done it then, I would of destroyed him & I still think about it on a far more than regular basis! 

These crimes affect far more people than just the one person actually involved in the offence while the pieces of shit who commit these offences get released to possibly (more often than not) commit these offences & for the record, the piece of shit involved in this crime carried out several very similar offences around the same time! James’ killers reportedly tried to kill another youngster earlier on that same day, it wasn’t a one off!

We’re clearly not going to agree on this & no doubt we won’t agree on many things that we consider that the state has failed on but out of interest, how do you think the 19 year-old who has just killed at least 17 people by shooting them at a school in Miami should be treated, considering this was apparently his way of payback because the school expelled him! I think you know what I think should happen to this little cherub & it doesn’t involve sitting down & discussing with him about how many lives he has just destroyed!

[nebristolred]

15 minutes ago, Tipps69 said:

But reported in his original offence was that James was found with batteries inserted in his back passage!! This by 10 year-old, how or why would any 10 year-olds have any inclination to putting things in someone’s back passage let alone all the other physical stoning, bricking & beating etc? And yet he still has some desires towards child abuse!

Sorry but I just don’t buy into this ‘the state have let them down’, who exactly would be trained to deal with children doing what they did? They have been treated better than they deserve (in my opinion) & they have repaid society how?

This is not the only occurrence of this nature which has happened. Very, very few people are outside the realm of help, particularly at that age. When they're 10, that's the only option you have. You cannot do anything else.

16 minutes ago, Tipps69 said:

We’re clearly not going to agree on this & no doubt we won’t agree on many things that we consider that the state has failed on but out of interest, how do you think the 19 year-old who has just killed at least 17 people by shooting them at a school in Miami should be treated, considering this was apparently his way of payback because the school expelled him! I think you know what I think should happen to this little cherub & it doesn’t involve sitting down & discussing with him about how many lives he has just destroyed!

I cut out the first part of your post for neatness but I'm sorry to hear that. That shouldn't give any more validity to your post though, I've had a similar thing happen extremely close to me (though not to myself) - experiences can still lead to different opinions. Incidentally, I think paedophilia and the like is far, far more common than people realise. All of these cases coming out will only be a portion of all those that happen. It's horrible to think about.

I'd say the same for the 19 year old. He's an adult, he needs to be tried as an adult, he needs to be helped if that's at all possible and he needs locking up for an extremely long time. I'm not sympathising with the offenders here mate. I'm just trying to give an objective viewpoint on what is best for society in terms of morality, safety and in some ways, financially. The death sentence for example may well be warranted, but for society it achieves absoutely nothing.

[Tipps69]

3 hours ago, nebristolred said:

This is not the only occurrence of this nature which has happened. Very, very few people are outside the realm of help, particularly at that age. When they're 10, that's the only option you have. You cannot do anything else.

I cut out the first part of your post for neatness but I'm sorry to hear that. That shouldn't give any more validity to your post though, I've had a similar thing happen extremely close to me (though not to myself) - experiences can still lead to different opinions. Incidentally, I think paedophilia and the like is far, far more common than people realise. All of these cases coming out will only be a portion of all those that happen. It's horrible to think about.

I'd say the same for the 19 year old. He's an adult, he needs to be tried as an adult, he needs to be helped if that's at all possible and he needs locking up for an extremely long time. I'm not sympathising with the offenders here mate. I'm just trying to give an objective viewpoint on what is best for society in terms of morality, safety and in some ways, financially. The death sentence for example may well be warranted, but for society it achieves absoutely nothing.

I guess my view is that the punishment needs to fit the crime & people who carry out cold blooded murder, paedophilia, rape & child abuse etc deserve the harshest crime handed down to them, no matter what the age, nothing gives anyone a right to destroy an innocent person’s life! I’m not talking people who have killed because they couldn’t handle the abuse any more & it was their only way to stop what was happening to them or people who kill in self defence.

Venables is probably pissing himself laughing, he did what he did at 10 & we spent all that time & money to mother him & treat him better than he treated his innocent victim, we then let him walk away with a totally new identification, housed him & probably payed him more than most get to life his new life & how has he repaid society? To carry on with his sick perversion of child abuse, sorry but I don’t believe anyone is safe around this scumbag or any of the other sick bastards that get off on that sort of thing & if he could do what he did at 10, he no doubt knows just how easy it could be for him to do it again & again, after all, having carried out such a heinous crime once & got treated like he’d stole a pack of sweets, where’s his deterrent to do it again? And while there’s only proof that he had child abuse images on his computer, how does anyone know that he hasn’t been involved in making any form of child abuse images? He doesn’t deserve to be trusted, trust is earned & anyone who can be involved in anything like that can’t be trusted, in my opinion!

Sorry but my view is that these types of people don’t deserve to live life like the vast majority of society!

[The Batman]

Person on twitter has tracked down his old Dating Website page that he set up a few years ago (he put pieces together from news articles and reports from his first arrest since release)

Obviously i cannot say too much as i dont want the OTIB police to shout at me, nor the authorities to have a go at the OTIB people.

But needless to say, considering it is illegal to put up a photo of Mr Venables in media form (which i presume includes dating websites) - is he not in breach of the very injunction that is in place to protect him? Obviously it was his new name.

Up to 2 year prison sentence and / or unlimited fine awaits him - HA, thats a joke, thats a worser punishment than he got for killing the child in the first place.

[Tipps69]

3 hours ago, The Batman said:

Person on twitter has tracked down his old Dating Website page that he set up a few years ago (he put pieces together from news articles and reports from his first arrest since release)

Obviously i cannot say too much as i dont want the OTIB police to shout at me, nor the authorities to have a go at the OTIB people.

But needless to say, considering it is illegal to put up a photo of Mr Venables in media form (which i presume includes dating websites) - is he not in breach of the very injunction that is in place to protect him? Obviously it was his new name.

Up to 2 year prison sentence and / or unlimited fine awaits him - HA, thats a joke, thats a worser punishment than he got for killing the child in the first place.

And this is what gets me, he knows he’s literally got away with murder & is taking the piss (like most) out of our legal system because he knows they technically can’t do anything worse to him than when he killed little James because that technically will be the worst crime he ‘should’ ever commit!

Could you imagine him coming home with your daughter who has a child or more from a previous relationship (as he’s now 35 so it’s not unlikely that he would get together with someone who already has kids), for you to discover who he is!?! There is no way my daughter (or her kids if / when she has any) would be allowed around her & I’d be making his identification public!

[The Dolman Pragmatist]

13 hours ago, Tipps69 said:

And this is what gets me, he knows he’s literally got away with murder & is taking the piss (like most) out of our legal system because he knows they technically can’t do anything worse to him than when he killed little James because that technically will be the worst crime he ‘should’ ever commit!

Could you imagine him coming home with your daughter who has a child or more from a previous relationship (as he’s now 35 so it’s not unlikely that he would get together with someone who already has kids), for you to discover who he is!?! There is no way my daughter (or her kids if / when she has any) would be allowed around her & I’d be making his identification public!

You repeatedly suggest that our legal system is knackered, but what precisely is wrong with it, and whose system would your prefer?  The US?  Saudi Arabia?  Russia?  Our system is one of the more balanced in the civilised world and while it may not quite satisfy some people's constant need for vengeance, broadly speaking it seems to serve it's purpose.  It is not barbaric.  It attempts to secure rehabilitation.  What exactly is wrong with it?

[nebristolred]

2 hours ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

You repeatedly suggest that our legal system is knackered, but what precisely is wrong with it, and whose system would your prefer?  The US?  Saudi Arabia?  Russia?  Our system is one of the more balanced in the civilised world and while it may not quite satisfy some people's constant need for vengeance, broadly speaking it seems to serve it's purpose.  It is not barbaric.  It attempts to secure rehabilitation.  What exactly is wrong with it?

Nailed it.

People banging on using him creating a dating site as a stick to beat him with. If he's going to be given a new identity on the presumption that he is now fit for society (which we now know to be untrue, but maybe didn't at the time), he has to behave as a normal member of society. I'm all for criticising the guy he's clearly an absolute **** but this is clutching at straws.

[Tipps69]

1 hour ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

You repeatedly suggest that our legal system is knackered, but what precisely is wrong with it, and whose system would your prefer?  The US?  Saudi Arabia?  Russia?  Our system is one of the more balanced in the civilised world and while it may not quite satisfy some people's constant need for vengeance, broadly speaking it seems to serve it's purpose.  It is not barbaric.  It attempts to secure rehabilitation.  What exactly is wrong with it?

Maybe that’s the problem, maybe if it was a bit more harsh rather than being more lenient, it would be more of a deterrent to these people! How many times do you hear that offenders have reoffended after already serving time in Her Majesty’s prisons, it clearly isn’t enough of a punishment or harsh enough to them to make them think twice about reoffending.

How is it justice for someone to murder another human being in cold blood, who in the main is a complete stranger to them & for them to go to prison for 10-15 years & it’s not hard-time in the whole. I know people who have been in prison & they’ve walked out laughing about their time away,  in the main it’s been described as a holiday camp!! So most offenders have no issue with spending time inside because it’s more than likely that they’ll just have fun with mates. Our prison service & justice system aren’t doing what they were designed for, it’s not a deterrent & it hardly ever rehabilitate anyone.

Paedophiles get put in a prison or wing with other like minded animals, that’s not hard time for them as it just gives the sick bastards the opportunity to discuss their offences & how they can share things. I’ve heard numerous times that petty thieves learn more from their other inmates about how to do their chosen profession than they knew previously, is that the rehabilitation that you talk about?

As for who’s system I prefer? I have no issue with the American system, convicted of first degree murder, have 70 in prison with no opportunity of parole or early release, they won’t be killing another innocent person on the outside world again & if people are still stupid enough to kill knowing that their offence will mean never seeing the outside world again, then that’s their own choice but currently knowing that the chances are that they will serve 15 years or so for taking an innocent person’s life is a joke & that’s why people no issue with it, why youngsters are going around stabbing each other, they don’t fear the justice system & they should.

And a lot of it starts with no respect, just look at the scroats who are currently going around stealing other people’s motorbikes & boasting about it all over social media & torching other people’s prized possessions when they’ve got bored of using it just to then go & steal another! 3 people arrested yesterday as young as 14!! I bet their shitting themselves (not) about the consequences of their actions! They don’t give a shit & it’s about time they did! Or should we carry on letting them mix inside with like-minded little scroats & just having a laugh with each other so they know what to expect next time they’ve been ‘naughty little boys’.

[Tipps69]

4 minutes ago, nebristolred said:

Nailed it.

People banging on using him creating a dating site as a stick to beat him with. If he's going to be given a new identity on the presumption that he is now fit for society (which we now know to be untrue, but maybe didn't at the time), he has to behave as a normal member of society. I'm all for criticising the guy he's clearly an absolute **** but this is clutching at straws.

Do you have kids or grandchildren? Would you like your daughter (if you have one or ever do have one) to bring a ‘Jon Venables’ home for tea & to know your daughter has trusted a ‘Jon Venables’ to look after your grandchildren while she goes out for an evening with friends? That’s the position he’s now in, getting together with someone on his dating website who already has kids.

As for me using it as a stick to beat him with, believe me, it’s not the ‘stick’ I’d like to use on the waste of space!

[nebristolred]

20 minutes ago, Tipps69 said:

Maybe that’s the problem, maybe if it was a bit more harsh rather than being more lenient, it would be more of a deterrent to these people! How many times do you hear that offenders have reoffended after already serving time in Her Majesty’s prisons, it clearly isn’t enough of a punishment or harsh enough to them to make them think twice about reoffending.

Sigh. I don't know how many times.... this is the exact issue. Do you really think an extra 3 or 5 years is going to solve anything? Or change that person? It's not the answer.

[nebristolred]

Also - " they don’t fear the justice system & they should" is a fallacy. America has the death penalty and far harsher punishments. They have more homicides than us. How do you work that one out?

[The Dolman Pragmatist]

27 minutes ago, Tipps69 said:

Maybe that’s the problem, maybe if it was a bit more harsh rather than being more lenient, it would be more of a deterrent to these people! How many times do you hear that offenders have reoffended after already serving time in Her Majesty’s prisons, it clearly isn’t enough of a punishment or harsh enough to them to make them think twice about reoffending.

How is it justice for someone to murder another human being in cold blood, who in the main is a complete stranger to them & for them to go to prison for 10-15 years & it’s not hard-time in the whole. I know people who have been in prison & they’ve walked out laughing about their time away,  in the main it’s been described as a holiday camp!! So most offenders have no issue with spending time inside because it’s more than likely that they’ll just have fun with mates. Our prison service & justice system aren’t doing what they were designed for, it’s not a deterrent & it hardly ever rehabilitate anyone.

Paedophiles get put in a prison or wing with other like minded animals, that’s not hard time for them as it just gives the sick bastards the opportunity to discuss their offences & how they can share things. I’ve heard numerous times that petty thieves learn more from their other inmates about how to do their chosen profession than they knew previously, is that the rehabilitation that you talk about?

As for who’s system I prefer? I have no issue with the American system, convicted of first degree murder, have 70 in prison with no opportunity of parole or early release, they won’t be killing another innocent person on the outside world again & if people are still stupid enough to kill knowing that their offence will mean never seeing the outside world again, then that’s their own choice but currently knowing that the chances are that they will serve 15 years or so for taking an innocent person’s life is a joke & that’s why people no issue with it, why youngsters are going around stabbing each other, they don’t fear the justice system & they should.

And a lot of it starts with no respect, just look at the scroats who are currently going around stealing other people’s motorbikes & boasting about it all over social media & torching other people’s prized possessions when they’ve got bored of using it just to then go & steal another! 3 people arrested yesterday as young as 14!! I bet their shitting themselves (not) about the consequences of their actions! They don’t give a shit & it’s about time they did! Or should we carry on letting them mix inside with like-minded little scroats & just having a laugh with each other so they know what to expect next time they’ve been ‘naughty little boys’.

This comes down to the purpose of prison, which as far as I know is to deprive someone of their liberty.  You may believe that the purpose of prison should be to deprive someone of their liberty and to make their life significantly unpleasant while they are in prison by, for instance, by physical or mental torture, but I don't.  If the state believes that torture is acceptable, then why should citizens believe it is wrong?  In the same way, if the state believes that putting someone to death is acceptable, then why should individuals believe it is morally wrong to kill?

I find the notion of prison as 'a holiday camp' quite extraordinary.  I can't imagine anything worse. 

You are right though that the way prison fails is because convicted criminals inevitably mix with other convicted criminals, and the likelihood of reoffending is increased as a result.  So you have to think whether a) we are sending too many people to prison (I believe we are - I would only send people to prison if they pose a danger to society) and b) whether we are doing enough to prevent criminal acts in the first place.  We seem to be living at a time when serious criminals are demonised, and I see little evidence of what is being done to prevent crimes.  For instance, we keep hearing about what 'paedophiles' do (though that word is widely misused), but little about why they are predisposed towards that sort of behaviour.  Unless you understand the causes of behaviour, how can you prevent it?  Surely the primary purpose of any justice system is to prevent crime, rather than to being about acts of vengeance on those who commit crime.

[Tipps69]

43 minutes ago, nebristolred said:

Sigh. I don't know how many times.... this is the exact issue. Do you really think an extra 3 or 5 years is going to solve anything? Or change that person? It's not the answer.

As I’ve already said but you keep ignoring, we’re not going to agree on this but to clarify, for the general criminal, they treat the place as a holiday camp, like a social club where they get to meet their mates & drink alcohol & take drugs together, it’s a jolly up for them & they know it! And I don’t blame the prison officers for this because their funds are being cut all the time that they don’t have enough officers to watch everyone all of the time but on the whole if criminals at all levels were treated with the respect that they have shown others then maybe they would realise it isn’t a place to enjoy themselves at. They don’t deserve the the respect they are given. People earn respect, it’s not a given but these scroats seem to think it is.

 

43 minutes ago, nebristolred said:

Also - " they don’t fear the justice system & they should" is a fallacy. America has the death penalty and far harsher punishments. They have more homicides than us. How do you work that one out?

SIGH....It’s a simple case of mathematics, America has many millions of more people in their country & many more guns but how many of those people that have carried out those offences have reoffeded? None, because once they are caught they are punished by being incarcerated for a huge amount of years that tends to mean they will never see the outside world!

Let’s carry on cuddling these little darlings because that’s clearly working a treat, isn’t it?!?

This 19 year-old mass murderer in America is now apparently showing remorse, so would you be happy for him to get 10 years inside & be back on the outside by the time he’s 30? He’ll get what he deserves, he won’t see the outside world again & he won’t get the opportunity to kill another innocent person on the outside because America gives a sentence that fits the crime!

38 minutes ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

This comes down to the purpose of prison, which as far as I know is to deprive someone of their liberty.  You may believe that the purpose of prison should be to deprive someone of their liberty and to make their life significantly unpleasant while they are in prison by, for instance, physical or mental torture, but I don't.  If the state believes that torture is acceptable, then why should citizens believe it is wrong?  In the same way, if the state believes that putting someone to death is acceptable, then why should individuals believe it is morally wrong to kill.

I find the notion of prison as 'a holiday camp' quite extraordinary.  I can't imagine anything worse. 

You are right though that the way prison fails is because convicted criminals inevitably mix with other convicted criminals, and the likelihood of reoffending is increased as a result.  So you have to think whether a) we are sending too many people to prison (I believe we are - I would only send people to prison if they pose a danger to society) and b) whether we are doing enough to prevent criminal acts in the first place.  We seem to be living at a time when serious criminals are demonised, and I see little evidence of what is being done to prevent crimes.  For instance, we keep hearing about what 'paedophiles' do (though that word is widely misused), but little about why they are predisposed towards that sort of behaviour.  Unless you understand the causes of behaviour, how can you prevent it?  Surely the primary purpose of any justice system is to prevent crime, rather than to being about acts of vengeance on those who commit crime.

But this is the point, the purpose of prison to deprive people of their liberty isn’t happening, they are still drinking alcohol, taking drugs, having the use of mobile phones & internet & free to watch TV & listen to music. I have never said that prisoners should be tortured, I just don’t believe sending someone to a holiday camp (which is what it is when you get sent somewhere where you can drink, do drugs & hang out with your mates listening to music etc), if all of these things, that they shouldn’t have in there in the first place was taken away from them, it wouldn’t be so enjoyable & maybe what the vast majority of us believe prison should actually be like.

If someone got put away (for whatever offence) & discovered that they had no access to alcohol, drugs, friends, mobile phones, internet & TV & they realised just how horrible a place prison is supposed to be, it may make them think twice about reoffending. The fact a prisoner gets rewarded for good behaviour by getting their own TV in their hotel room (sorry I mean prison cell) is laughable but I guess it’s an acceptable reward for behaving. Prison isn’t supposed to be enjoyable, it’s a punishment.

And like you, I would hate to have the prospect of myself going to prison but that’s because I’m a maw abiding citizen who still believes that prison should be a horrible place & compared to my life on the outside, it would be but it’s not the drastically horrible place it truly once was.

[nebristolred]

1 hour ago, Tipps69 said:

As I’ve already said but you keep ignoring, we’re not going to agree on this but to clarify, for the general criminal, they treat the place as a holiday camp, like a social club where they get to meet their mates & drink alcohol & take drugs together, it’s a jolly up for them & they know it! And I don’t blame the prison officers for this because their funds are being cut all the time that they don’t have enough officers to watch everyone all of the time but on the whole if criminals at all levels were treated with the respect that they have shown others then maybe they would realise it isn’t a place to enjoy themselves at. They don’t deserve the the respect they are given. People earn respect, it’s not a given but these scroats seem to think it is.

SIGH....It’s a simple case of mathematics, America has many millions of more people in their country & many more guns but how many of those people that have carried out those offences have reoffeded? None, because once they are caught they are punished by being incarcerated for a huge amount of years that tends to mean they will never see the outside world!

Let’s carry on cuddling these little darlings because that’s clearly working a treat, isn’t it?!?

You really think prison is a jolly up?! What world do you live in! You read too much Daily Mail mate.

"but how many of those people that have carried out those offences have reoffeded? None, because once they are caught they are punished by being incarcerated for a huge amount of years that tends to mean they will never see the outside world!" - This is just complete and utter BS. You don't know what you're talking about. Apparently no one in America who's been to jail has ever committed an offence again 

[nebristolred]

Here you go @Tipps69. If longer prison sentences work so well, how do you work this out?

2013 UK reoffending rates - 26.8%
2011 US reoffending rates - 43%

[Red Army 75]

On 12/02/2018 at 07:40, BanburyRed said:

I never really knew of the depth of this terrible crime but reading that description i am completely sick to the pit of my stomach. Beyond appaling and depraved. Both should never be let out, ever.

How, as a parent, you can ever recover from that? And the pain, suffering and downright fright that little boy must've gone through in his last minutes and hours on this planet.

Also highlights the justice system in this country needs a thorough overhaul to make it fit for purpose.

Spot on . Those parents lost their child to an evil pair . They still have to live with that horror. And the ****** who done it gets another chance. And ***** up again . Bollocks to him . Hope he rots 

[Tipps69]

3 hours ago, nebristolred said:

You really think prison is a jolly up?! What world do you live in! You read too much Daily Mail mate.

"but how many of those people that have carried out those offences have reoffeded? None, because once they are caught they are punished by being incarcerated for a huge amount of years that tends to mean they will never see the outside world!" - This is just complete and utter BS. You don't know what you're talking about. Apparently no one in America who's been to jail has ever committed an offence again 

And again, make up things that I’ve said! Of course petty criminals have gone on to reoffend but people like Jon Venables, child killers or cold blooded murderers rarely have if at all because they get given sentences that match the crimes they have committed!

And as for me reading whatever publication, I don’t read papers & I don’t do social media, so my mind is made up by myself not by what someone else is reporting or by some popularity contest on Facebook or twitter or whatever it is that people use nowadays!

3 hours ago, nebristolred said:

Here you go @Tipps69. If longer prison sentences work so well, how do you work this out?

2013 UK reoffending rates - 26.8%
2011 US reoffending rates - 43%

And what publication did you get those figures? The Sun? And what was that reoffending consisting of, petty thieving? Burglary? Vehicle taking? How many of those reoffences were child killers or cold blooded murderers? For the record, this thread is about a child killer & child abuser, not about a petty thief who has stolen some cans of beer a couple of times, we’re talking about a serious threat to any community that he lives in, not someone who has shown any signs of ever being a benefit to any community he is in!

If a dog bites someone (not kills) chances are they are destroyed yet a ‘human’ (and I say that in the loosest terms) can kill anyone & be allowed back out to reoffend in a few years, that’s justice hey!

It seems like you have been brainwashed by statistics to suit your argument but in amongst all this you’ve failed to answer if you’re a parent or grandparent & how you would react if it was a family member of yours that allowed a ‘Jon Venables’ into your family.

Like I’ve said, you carry on with your powder puff way of justice, the world is such a great place with killers, rapist & child abusers being allowed to walk the streets again & again after they’ve offended.

I truly hope you never get affected by someone who can do something that ruins your whole world & not just yours but numerous other people but if you do, I hope to see you on the news supporting your criminal in giving him a lenient sentence & allowing him back into your community after a couple of years of partying in prison with his mates!

And yes, for the record, I do believe the majority of people in prison think it’s an easy life, I’ve never been given a PlayStation or X-Box for my good behaviour, I’ve had to work hard & behave for everything I’ve ever wanted & as I’ve said, I know a fair few people who have been inside & none of them are scared to go back there but they should be, in my opinion! People in prison are there for a reason, to be punished for their bad behaviour & again, in my opinion that isn’t happening!

For the record, I’m bored of discussing this with you now because as I’ve said numerous times, we’re clearly never going to agree with each other.

[nebristolred]

@Tipps69, you just accused me of making something up that you said, I used a direct quote from you . "but how many of those people that have carried out those offences have reoffeded? None"

The publications I used to get the figures were from The Independent and the US National Institute of Justice.

You say that I've failed to answer how I'd feel if I was a parent or grandparent - again, incorrect, I've already addressed this, but I'll repeat. As much as I sympathise, if I was a parent or grandparent of a victim, that would make me one of the worst people available to give an objective judgment on the accused. A sentence is not passed wholly on the feelings of a victim or victims.

We're clearly not going to agree but I address your points and all you do is repeat yourself. I'm happy to counter any argument you have but you're seemingly unable to reciprocate without 'but think of the families'.

[Kid in the Riot]

7 hours ago, nebristolred said:

Also - " they don’t fear the justice system & they should" is a fallacy. America has the death penalty and far harsher punishments. They have more homicides than us. How do you work that one out?

Because in short the death penalty does not act as a deterrent to a fair few murderers, particularly serial killers. In fact for many it's seen as quite an easy way out and almost what they want.

[nebristolred]

2 hours ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Because in short the death penalty does not act as a deterrent to a fair few murderers, particularly serial killers. In fact for many it's seen as quite an easy way out and almost what they want.

I'd go as far as to say most murderers. They don't think they're going to be caught.

[Up The City!]

On Friday, February 16, 2018 at 12:10, Tipps69 said:

Do you have kids or grandchildren? Would you like your daughter (if you have one or ever do have one) to bring a ‘Jon Venables’ home for tea & to know your daughter has trusted a ‘Jon Venables’ to look after your grandchildren while she goes out for an evening with friends? That’s the position he’s now in, getting together with someone on his dating website who already has kids.

As for me using it as a stick to beat him with, believe me, it’s not the ‘stick’ I’d like to use on the waste of space!

I would imagine there is restrictions on him to prevent this kind of situation

[Tipps69]

1 hour ago, Up The City! said:

I would imagine there is restrictions on him to prevent this kind of situation

But any restrictions placed on him clearly don’t make any difference to him! It’s widely known that he has a dating site profile & has posted a picture of himself (which is an arrestable offence for anyone else to post a picture of him). And although he’s supposedly got restrictions in place for what he’s allowed to access online (being that he’s got previous for child abuse images), he’s been caught more than once for this offence & returned to prison for it.

Seemingly nothing makes any difference to him & I’m not one bit surprised because the bigger picture is that if you murder another human being (especially in cold blood), that any punishment you receive is going to be the worst possible punishment but it hasn’t deterred him from going on to reoffend with another of the lowest of the low offences.

[Super]

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/920501/James-Bulger-Jon-Venables-Robert-Thompson-boiling-water-prison

oh well....