It's time to support not slaughter.

[Bristol Oil Services]

2 hours ago, Yozzarian said:

It's the only way I have of showing displeasure.  I won't boo for obvious reasons but if I clap how will i convey my unhappiness with the club's approach. Genuinely open to suggestions.

The club's approach is not the responsibility of Hunt or Webster, bit harsh to lay that on them! It's a bit old school, but what about a letter, spelling it all out, to SL, or MA/LJ? Failing that, an email. That way you get to make your unhappiness plain and unequivocal, to the people that count, the people that make the big decisions that impact this club. 

Call into Twentyman when he has SL or LJ on his show, or email in a question, or your thoughts on things.

None of these ideal but they do not impact on the team when points are at stake. The players, with 43 games still to play, need all the support we can muster. They are up against it enough as it is in this division, without adding a cool, hardtoplease, indifferent/hostile home crowd. 

We've tried being a bit miserable/apathetic/moaning/booing/getting on the team's back for most of the club's history, and it hasn't really worked or achieved much in a positive way. What does Einstein say about doing the same thing over and over? We could try being 100% happy clappy and super-fan supportive on match days - while the team are clearly trying, as you acknowledged they were Saturday; if they are not, then they deserve everything we can chuck at them. Effort is the minimum requirement - and see what happens? What's the worst that can happen?

If people are not happy with the players, their displeasure needs to go to the people that hire and select/coach/manage them; if they are unhappy with the people that select/coach/manage the players, then take that to the person who hired them. 

I think a bit of demonstrative support when they perhaps least deserve it could work wonders, actually. 

[Yozzarian]

18 minutes ago, Moments of Pleasure said:

A bit old school, but a letter, spelling it all out, to SL, or MA/LJ. Failing that, an email. That way you get to make your unhappiness plain and unequivocal, to the people that count, the people that make the big decisions that impact this club. 

Call into Twentyman when he has SL or LJ on his show, or email in a question, or your thoughts on things.

None of these ideal but they do not impact on the team when points are at stake. The players, with 43 games still to play, need all the support we can muster. They are up against it enough as it is in this division, without adding a cool, hardtoplease, indifferent/hostile home crowd. 

We've tried being a bit miserable/apathetic/moaning/booing/getting on the team's back for most of the club's history, and it hasn't really worked or achieved much in a positive way. What does Einstein say about doing the same thing over and over? We could try being 100% happy clappy and super-fan supportive on match days - while the team are clearly trying, as you acknowledged they were Saturday; if they are not, then they deserve everything we can chuck at them. Effort is the minimum requirement - and see what happens? What's the worst that can happen?

If people are not happy with the players, their displeasure needs to go to the people that hire and select/coach/manage them; if they are unhappy with the people that select/coach/manage the players, then take that to the person who hired them. 

I think a bit of demonstrative support when they perhaps least deserve it could work wonders, actually. 

These are all valid points and ones that I will take on board.  I will say though - as evidenced by the near silence throughout the game - it is very hard to cheer when feeling down about the performance.  This isn't an excuse but I am no song starter so unless the crowd is singing then I am not going to find it easy to start myself. I acknowledge the problem is of course that if we all feel this way no one will ever sing but there you are.  Section 82 did try and get things going but they are too far away from me to mask the embarrassment of effectively starting up on my own.

But really, the main problem is overcoming the miserable mood we found ourselves in Sat.  As I say, I didn't and wouldn't boo as long as the team shows effort but it is hard to actually be the party (the fans) that encourages the other (the team).  Far easier for them to encourage the fans which I acknowledge is probably the wrong way around.  I do feel for the players I really do.  They do try most of the time - you have to go back two seasons ago when I was screaming for Johnson's head at one point - to find instances where the effort was insufficient at times.  This being the case I feel for them getting little pro-active encouragement from the crowd when things are going against us.  Not sure how you can change this collective trend/mood. It's one seen in most grounds around the country.

I even had a theory that part of it is that life is pretty tough for many in the days of austerity and political/societal worries in general have seeped into the subconscious of many people to the extent that they place undue pressure on football to make them happy.  When we do badly or even averagely this low mood comes to the fore more easily.  This may be a crack-pot theory of course!! 

[Bristol Oil Services]

@Yozzarian I just think we are more reserved in this part of the country. It doesn't have to be singing songs as such, simply making encouraging noises as we attack, win a tackle or corner, defend well, chase and hassle, etc, and general backing for the team, maybe stepping it up when the noise dips, and things like singing the players' names, very effective this. When we sing a song for a player that's struggling, like with Magnússon, that is powerful. Just times that by eleven!

I think the price of watching, and the wages players are paid now, creates a lot of cynicism, and people will only applaud winning and success. Our best players moving away doesn't help, either. 

[Abraham Romanovich]

12 minutes ago, Yozzarian said:

I even had a theory that part of it is that life is pretty tough for many in the days of austerity and political/societal worries in general have seeped into the subconscious of many people to the extent that they place undue pressure on football to make them happy.  When we do badly or even averagely this low mood comes to the fore more easily.  This may be a crack-pot theory of course!! 

This is not a thread for the purists out there but any neutral posters will have enjoyed it.

 

[Spoons]

8 hours ago, AshtonPark said:

You mention if you are having a bad day at work, if you were being paid a very impressive wage but kept turning bad performances day in day out. What do you think would happen to you?

I would be fine, got a excellent union rep!

[Mr Popodopolous]

2 minutes ago, Moments of Pleasure said:

@Yozzarian I just think we are more reserved in this part of the country. It doesn't have to be singing songs as such, simply making encouraging noises as we attack, win a tackle or corner, defend well, chase and hassle, etc, and general backing for the team, maybe stepping it up when the noise dips, and things like singing the players' names, very effective this. When we sing a song for a player that's struggling, like with Magnússon, that is powerful. Just times that by eleven!

I think the price of watching, and the wages players are paid now, creates a lot of cynicism, and people will only applaud winning and success. Our best players moving away doesn't help, either. 

Think this plays a part for sure, but prices particularly. "We've paid big bucks, so the emphasis is on you to deliver'. Plays a role for sure.

I'm going to drift into ideal world territory now, and I know it's not realistic but what would be amazing is if people expressed legit gripes on here, on Twentyman and were properly noisy at the ground- as in leave all negativity at the door for 90 mins and make a right racket- 'encouraging noises as we attack, win a tackle or corner, defend well, chase and hassle, etc, and general backing for the team, maybe stepping it up when the noise dips, and things like singing the players' names, very effective this'. Particularly the tackle, hassling etc- all excellent trigger moments for an upping of the noise.

Not realistic I appreciate, but a noisy, vocal ground does make a difference. A big difference- one of the things that sticks with me is when we went 4-1 down to Chesterfield in 2005, in the GJ losing streak- those who remained made a real noise. Unsure why it happened but it did!

[KeepUpLino]

9 hours ago, Barney red said:

Ok Saturday showed we are nowhere near a top 6 club but with all the changes and injuries it was no big surprise. 

I have always felt proud to be a city fan even during far worse times than now.

People booing is frankly embarrassing and shows zero loyalty and even less understanding of the situation. 

We need to give them time to sort injuries get our centre forward back and let new players settle.

However bad the situation it is far better to support than criticise to turn the situation round .If you are having a bad day at work i know which option is preferable. 

We as a club need to recognise we have no right to success and accept that everyone in this league is competitive. 

Our support will get us through our criticism will only destroy what we have.

Rubbish, why should I support a regime who in my eyes are supplying a poor product...

 

[KeepUpLino]

3 hours ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

I’d suggest that

( 12 months or so after our completing a the Record breaking run of defeats in our history)

 it’s 4 wins in 27 , 28 or whatever it is and selling 3 of our best and iconic players from last season and before in JB and AF and  some pitiful performances to boot ,    that has brought the morale down

 

but hey lets defend LJ and his merry band at every moment and blame the supporters for the morale 

 

 

These people are drunk on the drip fed nonsense Bristol Sport feeds them.. 

 

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, Robbored said:

The garden has yet to reach maturity but is growing.....

The corner of the garden used for injuries is becoming overgrown and needs tending to 

[bengalcub]

We were spoilt last year and it's raised expectations however it's back to the city we know and love , it's going to be a tough season no doubt about it but hopefully we can turn the corner when fammy is back, and when baker and wright regain fitness 

[Nogbad the Bad]

9 hours ago, kmpowell said:

The happy clappers such as yourself need to recognise that if the ambition of the club is to play top flight football again, then there are really only a couple of factors needed to do that.  Sadly the actions don’t match the words  

Year in year out we hear the ‘get behind the team’ spiel rolled out, but personally I’ve had enough. We were making steady progress, but we are now where we are because of inexcusable failings.

1. We took the eye off the ball and got carried away with that meaningless cup nonsense in December last year.

2. We didn’t strengthen in any of the transfer windows.

3. We sold three of our best players and didn’t replace.

4. We have a tactically wise coach, but he’s inexperienced and clearly needs experienced support to get us through tough times.

Look back to that fateful 2007/2008 season and look at the teams who were around us at the time, then look at how they’ve progressed and grown in comparison to us.

So forgive me for not getting behind the team, but I’ve heard it all before, too many times. Until the club start putting actions behind their words, then I sit on the apathetic fence and will continue to be happy at good form but totally unsurprised by any dismal results and form.

 

LJ is the 21st longest serving manager in the League and the 3rd longest serving manager in the Championship after Harris and Smith.

He's managed over 280 games.

I don't call that inexperienced.

[ScottishRed]

3 hours ago, hoxton casual said:

This may be something we all need to acknowledge that increasingly we will need to be very lucky to get to the Prem, if we follow our current model. Unless our long term owner sells out to a fantistically well funded foreign buyer and we are left bankrupt on 5 years. Bristol City (2023) Ltd anyone?

I am consistently astonished that anyone actually thinks it would - the reality of what the plan means has truly hit home this summer and unless the plan changes, which appears highly unlikely, we will be in Div 1 long before we are in the PL.

Equally, I suspect there will be little chance of the club being sold, unless truly stupid money was offered, because of the whole Bristol Sport concept.

The owners comments about 'higher league position' 'getting older' 'Premier League' etc are completely disingenuous - there is zero ambition to get to the PL but there is ambition to make sure we all buy our tickets and spend £ at AG, hence these statements.

I do get the impression however that an increasing percentage of us are now seeing where all this would appear to be going - this could become quite unpleasant quite quickly. 

[maxjak]

9 hours ago, Drew Peacock said:

When is our squad ever fit?

I believe it was a Thursday afternoon, around 3 weeks ago?..........unfortunately it failed to last, as Hegeler pulled  a muscle while unscrewing  the top off a bottle of Gatorade.

[aa_bcfc]

4 hours ago, hoxton casual said:

This may be something we all need to acknowledge that increasingly we will need to be very lucky to get to the Prem, if we follow our current model. Unless our long term owner sells out to a fantistically well funded foreign buyer and we are left bankrupt on 5 years. Bristol City (2023) Ltd anyone?

Perhaps then our current model is flawed and needs to change. If things are going wrong it’s likely to continue that way unless you change something (you might want to start with LJ)

How the hell have premiership giants like palace, Watford, Bournemouth, Brighton, Burnley, Cardiff, Fulham and Huddersfield managed to do it? These are all clubs we have played regularly over the years so surely we should expect to be on a par with them?

Perhaps they had a manager who knows what he is doing and also not wasting millions on the likes of Duric, Taylor Moore, Engvall, Hegeler etc, wasting money on rubbish loan signings and not selling their best players when in the championship.

Oh, and we already a well funded owner, I doubt many of the teams listed above have an owner any better off than SL. 

[Will Rollason]

10 hours ago, kmpowell said:

The happy clappers such as yourself

Give it a rest mate.

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, aa_bcfc said:

Perhaps then our current model is flawed and needs to change. If things are going wrong it’s likely to continue that way unless you change something (you might want to start with LJ)

How the hell have premiership giants like palace, Watford, Bournemouth, Brighton, Burnley, Cardiff, Fulham and Huddersfield managed to do it? These are all clubs we have played regularly over the years so surely we should expect to be on a par with them?

Perhaps they had a manager who knows what he is doing and also not wasting millions on the likes of Duric, Taylor Moore, Engvall, Hegeler etc, wasting money on rubbish loan signings and not selling their best players when in the championship.

Oh, and we already a well funded owner, I doubt many of the teams listed above have an owner any better off than SL. 

Seems simple enough why cant we do it? maybe we don't want to reach the heights, as the penalties for more LJ poor signings will be higher, much higher; of course we could always change the manager first......nah aint gonna happen purse strings will not be loosened the plan will not change.

[Mr Popodopolous]

21 minutes ago, aa_bcfc said:

Perhaps then our current model is flawed and needs to change. If things are going wrong it’s likely to continue that way unless you change something (you might want to start with LJ)

How the hell have premiership giants like palace, Watford, Bournemouth, Brighton, Burnley, Cardiff, Fulham and Huddersfield managed to do it? These are all clubs we have played regularly over the years so surely we should expect to be on a par with them?

Perhaps they had a manager who knows what he is doing and also not wasting millions on the likes of Duric, Taylor Moore, Engvall, Hegeler etc, wasting money on rubbish loan signings and not selling their best players when in the championship.

Oh, and we already a well funded owner, I doubt many of the teams listed above have an owner any better off than SL. 

Lansdown's wealth is a red herring.

Having said that, there is something in what you say, those clubs (though Fulham pretty freespending under Al Fayed) made the most of their resources. Our player trading? Moderate, alright, hit and miss..nothing more.

However each club on that list also had a different route to success to each other basically, so plucking examples is a bit misleading IMO.

[Leveller]

1 hour ago, ScottishRed said:

I am consistently astonished that anyone actually thinks it would - the reality of what the plan means has truly hit home this summer and unless the plan changes, which appears highly unlikely, we will be in Div 1 long before we are in the PL.

Equally, I suspect there will be little chance of the club being sold, unless truly stupid money was offered, because of the whole Bristol Sport concept.

The owners comments about 'higher league position' 'getting older' 'Premier League' etc are completely disingenuous - there is zero ambition to get to the PL but there is ambition to make sure we all buy our tickets and spend £ at AG, hence these statements.

I do get the impression however that an increasing percentage of us are now seeing where all this would appear to be going - this could become quite unpleasant quite quickly. 

I am consistently astonished that anyone thinks the ownership have no ambition to rise higher. Even if only for financial reasons, progressing higher up the league makes sense. Do they want to throw untold millions at it? No. Do they want to do it eventually on a modest budget? Of course they do because there is no reason not to. You may be upset that their spending is limited, so you see their ambition as negligible, but a desire to stay where we are and consistently fund losses makes no sense.

[ScottishRed]

19 minutes ago, Leveller said:

I am consistently astonished that anyone thinks the ownership have no ambition to rise higher. Even if only for financial reasons, progressing higher up the league makes sense. Do they want to throw untold millions at it? No. Do they want to do it eventually on a modest budget? Of course they do because there is no reason not to. You may be upset that their spending is limited, so you see their ambition as negligible, but a desire to stay where we are and consistently fund losses makes no sense.

So, serious question, can you explain how the current model is going to get us there?

Because I simply cannot see how it is possibly going to do so.

[KeepUpLino]

4 hours ago, TonyTonyTony said:

Relegation form ? It’s 3 games in for goodness sake. Man up a bit dude

A win tomorrow night we will be about ninth or something having played two of the favourites for the top 6. About Par. I recognise 2018 had been poor but don’t accept that is how it will be. LJ had us playing the best footy I’ve seen at AG last year and I believe we will get it back again. 

I also don’t understand how you can be not happy with the transfers - far too early to judge. If you are still upset about the trio going then you should have expected it. Everyone knew JB BR and AF would be gone last December. Moneyball

Get behind the boys - don’t criticise so much. The negative atmosphere rubs off on the players. Why spend money on something and be pissed off ?

Get behind the lads - Inspire them to be better - COYR

 

I can’t  stand this get behind the boys, don’t criticise bollocks... Seriously do you honestly believe this is the way it works?

 Maybe you ought to talk with other fans of the more successful clubs, Burton fans are no questions asked believers...!!!

 

 

[aa_bcfc]

1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Lansdown's wealth is a red herring.

Having said that, there is something in what you say, those clubs (though Fulham pretty freespending under Al Fayed) made the most of their resources. Our player trading? Moderate, alright, hit and miss..nothing more.

However each club on that list also had a different route to success to each other basically, so plucking examples is a bit misleading IMO.

Your probably right about each club having a different route. I woul imagine we can be pretty sure that none of them had a manager when in the championship whose gone on 3 or 4 losing streaks or 4 wins in about 28 games like our head coach/manager. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

Just now, aa_bcfc said:

Your probably right about each club having a different route. I woul imagine we can be pretty sure that none of them had a manager when in the championship whose gone on 3 or 4 losing streaks or 4 wins in about 28 games like our head coach/manager. 

Fair, there's definitely something not yet right about how we're going about things...not convinced all the blame lies with LJ either.

[ScottishRed]

5 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Fair, there's definitely something not yet right about how we're going about things...not convinced all the blame lies with LJ either.

I do wonder - not ITK - if the owner has decided not to fund Lee's experiment any further and has told him to make it work with what he has been given.

The test of this will be whether we do make any loan signings before the 31st.

I think there may be something at play here behind the scenes.

[Mr Popodopolous]

17 minutes ago, ScottishRed said:

I do wonder - not ITK - if the owner has decided not to fund Lee's experiment any further and has told him to make it work with what he has been given.

The test of this will be whether we do make any loan signings before the 31st.

I think there may be something at play here behind the scenes.

Ah, set up to fail sort of thing?

A bit of that crossed my mind, when the expectation was for an improvement in position- which followed LJ talking about a hard summer.

Not convinced there will be any loan signings personally- hope I'm wrong.

[Davefevs]

2 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Lansdown's wealth is a red herring.

Having said that, there is something in what you say, those clubs (though Fulham pretty freespending under Al Fayed) made the most of their resources. Our player trading? Moderate, alright, hit and miss..nothing more.

However each club on that list also had a different route to success to each other basically, so plucking examples is a bit misleading IMO.

Just looked back at 16/17’s accounts for each club (I have a spreadsheet!!).  We as fans are generally moaning that we’ve earned £25m and only outplayed £10m.

In 16/17, 21 out of 24 clubs made a profit in the transfer market, suggesting two things:

1. they are also having to sell their best players too
2. inflation of transfer fees is growing at a faster rate and clubs are making the most of the tv revenue higher up

or perhaps a combination of both.

The only clubs that lost money were Wolves, Sheffield We’d and Brighton (who got promoted).

10 clubs made more money, so it’s not poor old Bristol City.

Obviously no idea re 17/18’s figures.

[Mr Popodopolous]

3 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Just looked back at 16/17’s accounts for each club (I have a spreadsheet!!).  We as fans are generally moaning that we’ve earned £25m and only outplayed £10m.

In 16/17, 21 out of 24 clubs made a profit in the transfer market, suggesting two things:

1. they are also having to sell their best players too
2. inflation of transfer fees is growing at a faster rate and clubs are making the most of the tv revenue higher up

or perhaps a combination of both.

The only clubs that lost money were Wolves, Sheffield We’d and Brighton (who got promoted).

10 clubs made more money, so it’s not poor old Bristol City.

Obviously no idea re 17/18’s figures.

Agree with all of that.

I've been doing some best guesses for clubs in 17/18 but it hit a bit of a block when my workload increased...Had to knock it on the head.

Think a big factor is parachute payments helping push wages up..clubs scrambling to keep up. 

A spike in wages, without the TV cash to keep up? Can only lead to wage inflation and a need for profit on transfers tbh.

Will start looking at prior 2 seasons again myself soon.

[Davefevs]

3 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Agree with all of that.

I've been doing some best guesses for clubs in 17/18 but it hit a bit of a block when my workload increased...Had to knock it on the head.

Think a big factor is parachute payments helping push wages up..clubs scrambling to keep up. 

A spike in wages, without the TV cash to keep up? Can only lead to wage inflation and a need for profit on transfers tbh.

Will start looking at prior 2 seasons again myself soon.

If you want I can email you my xls....DM me if so.  It’ll show you the headline figures from each club’s accounts....save you a bit of time.

The problem we have is not having any detail on amortisation, because we don’t know terms of contracts.

[BobBobSuperBob]

9 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

If you want I can email you my xls....DM me if so.  It’ll show you the headline figures from each club’s accounts....save you a bit of time.

The problem we have is not having any detail on amortisation, because we don’t know terms of contracts.

I wouldn’t claim to have a fraction of the knowledge you and Mr P have re the financial complexities

But as I understood from hearing MA explain it

Its the players value (fee) divided by his contract

So a £9 m purchase on a three year contract would be valued amortisation wise at £6 m after one year and £3 m after two

That sounds a bit simple but is that not right  ?

[Davefevs]

4 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

I wouldn’t claim to have a fraction of the knowledge you and Mr P have re the financial complexities

But as I understood from hearing MA explain it

Its the players value (fee) divided by his contract

So a £9 m purchase on a three year contract would be valued amortisation wise at £6 m after one year and £3 m after two

That sounds a bit simple but is that not right  ?

Bob, we understand how it works, we just don’t have the numbers to do the math. 

Even the published accounts don’t give us individual player values and wages, so we can only do the overall transfer profit / loss.

Amortisation includes fees and wages over the contract. 

[NcnsBcfc]

I can't remember a season, when 3 of your best players effectively said "We don't believe that we are going to get to the premier league with this team and manager".

For that reason Reid and Bryan wouldn't sign new contracts; and flint had now gone on record to say he jumped at the first opportunity to sign for a real contender.

Christ, we were 2nd in Jan, and flying; with some of the best football I've seen at AG in 30 years

Now where are we? 4 wins in 28 this calendar year, no marquee signings to replace important players. Even though we have received over 25 Million in transfer fees this summer.

A week ago, LJ was even saying that financially he can't afford to bring in a forward, It all makes no sense. Hes basically saying it'll be alright when fammy gets back. Can't see it myself, and it only takes one injury.

The players look lost in the final third at the moment, plenty of possession, no cutting edge. I know we have injuries, but where are the leaders that LJ promised in May; when he said he knows what went wrong Jan- May with the team. I'm confused, as certainly none of the signings so far, could in any sense be sent as dominant physical "leaders". 

It all seems a big directionless at the moment. No doubt things will be clearer after 10 games. This division is obviously a division of 2 halves where the top 10, are far superior to the other 14. We are unfortunately not in that top 10, so will be slugging it out with the other 14 over the 3 relegation slots. 

It's a long hard season ahead I fear, and for me; when the going gets tough I can't see LJ turning this ship around.