Squad rotation

[headhunter]

On the basis that Pisano and Kelly were rested in readiness for Stoke then could we see more changes for that game?

How about this starting line up: 

Maenpaa

Pisano -  Wright -Webster - De Silva

Brownhill - Pack - Morrell

Taylor - Eisa - Eliasson

Subs: O'Leary, Hunt, Kalas, Diedhiou, Kelly, Adelakun, O,Dowda 

Note i have left out Paterson and we all know that won't happen!! Overall shows how weak we are in midfield [I assume Watkins is injured?]

Get 4 points from next 2 league games then 6th becomes a possibility. We'd be on 39 points with 19 games remaining - needing 36 points.

I think we can beat Huddersfield and have a decent cup run to keep the interest going

 

 

[Wrongagain]

Would be worth a go, trouble is Pack probably needs a rest more than any, there is no way LJ will start Eisa or leave Pato out - the love is too strong!

We don’t have the strength to go back to the style of play that suits FD and he will continue to look like a fish out of water until our coach gets a grip, we started the season very well without him but he does not fit the way we play at the moment.

LJ is bricking it as HE is getting exposed as the one for the future that has spent millions and has nothing to show for it, we should still be showing the rest of the league how it’s done

[Hampshire Red]

Cant possible agree with any of 36s comments; if Pack needed a rest Lj would give him one. What is this 'Love' nonsense you comment on re Pato. If Lj is any way nervous (and he has zero reason to be) why wouldnt he play his strongest team (rather than any fabricated 11 you may start with)?

FD doesn't look a fish out of water, not that i look at many. He looks in good form and has played some top performances recently as you may have seen at Derby, Birmingham where we gained 4 points from top 7 teams.

Like all your posts on "one of the brightest young managers" (Henry Winter, The Times Dec 15th) you are just miles off the mark. 300 games at the age of 37, out-doing most managers in the Championship and Jose all in the past 12 months. I don't think he has spent 'net millions' either! In fact he has 'sold net millions' because surely even with your biased, one-sided views you will remember we sold a 20-goal striker who is now proving a good sub in the top tier. We also sold a left back gaining first choice places at full back in the EPL and a centre back who was worth 5-10 goals a season. Those 3 alone earned us over £20m in one close season so not sure where your maths comes from.

 

Another point on squad rotation is we get criticised sometimes for not showing consistency of selections. Having 5 or 6 regulars on the bench means IF we bought two more players there would have to be more rotation. Likewise, if we brought back 10 of our players out on loan (Gary Owers yesterday) there would be squad revolution more than squad rotation

[Davefevs]

Assuming the back 5 will see the return of Pisano and Kelly, I wouldn’t mind seeing a front 6 of the following v Stoke:

Pack

Adelakun Brownhill Taylor Eliasson

Diedhiou

For the criticism I gave Pack yesterday, away from home is a different beast.  I would like to see Taylor in midfield with Brownhill, providing a bit of bite and press.

[BS4 on Tour...]

8 minutes ago, Hampshire Red said:

...In fact he has 'sold net millions' because surely even with your biased, one-sided views you will remember we sold a 20-goal striker who is now proving a good sub in the top tier.....

Those 3 alone earned us over £20m in one close season so not sure where your maths comes from....

As you seem so keen ‘on the maths’ - in how many seasons did our ‘20 goal striker’ actually score 20 league goals? Zero by my calculations....and I’m rubbish at maths....

[Lrrr]

I'm not so sure its rotation, more tactical and sport science. Pisano can't play every game in the festive period and Dasilva matched the tactics with hunt of getting forward with the wingers tucking inside. Its just the added bonus that Kelly gets a rest as well. Think if we were rotating more players would have been left out yesterday with Stoke being the harder game on paper.

[1960maaan]

I really think LJ is even more worried about picking up points at the moment, compared to any other time during his rule.
With that in mind, I would guess very few changes. Maybe Kelly back as I think LJ sees him a slightly more defensive, I would think Adelukan might be rested and there might be a slight surprise with DaSilva moving to left side of MF. Other than that same old same old. Saturday's team could see a few changes, and players getting a run out.

[Lanterne Rouge]

11 minutes ago, 1960maaan said:

I really think LJ is even more worried about picking up points at the moment, compared to any other time during his rule.
With that in mind, I would guess very few changes. Maybe Kelly back as I think LJ sees him a slightly more defensive, I would think Adelukan might be rested and there might be a slight surprise with DaSilva moving to left side of MF. Other than that same old same old. Saturday's team could see a few changes, and players getting a run out.

I`m thinking this more and more TBH. He`s so terrified of another bad run that he`s trying to set us up not to lose most of the time. Maybe when we get to 45 odd points with a dozen or so games left it might change? I agree about the cup game and in truth am looking forward to hopefully to seeing a few fringe players like Morrell.

[Hampshire Red]

A subject that can seen from sides starting with why our young coach should feel pressure. Of course every job has some pressure but not all have a massive number of people assessing your performance and complaining they do better.i am sure MA and SL are tough bosses so there rightly comes pressure from that angle too. 

In football wins and points certainly ease pressure so with more wins than losses this season Lee is probably loving his life at City. He deserves to. 

[Davefevs]

52 minutes ago, Hampshire Red said:

A subject that can seen from sides starting with why our young coach should feel pressure. Of course every job has some pressure but not all have a massive number of people assessing your performance and complaining they do better.i am sure MA and SL are tough bosses so there rightly comes pressure from that angle too. 

In football wins and points certainly ease pressure so with more wins than losses this season Lee is probably loving his life at City. He deserves to. 

Top Six tells us that in the majority of years you need almost twice as many wins as defeats, something in the region of W20, D15, L11 Pts75.

We are doing ok, but I’m sure SL wants better than ‘ok’.

A big 5 months ahead for LJ.

What would you be happy with come May 2019?

[Dr Balls]

13 hours ago, Red Right Hand said:

I`m thinking this more and more TBH. He`s so terrified of another bad run that he`s trying to set us up not to lose most of the time. Maybe when we get to 45 odd points with a dozen or so games left it might change? I agree about the cup game and in truth am looking forward to hopefully to seeing a few fringe players like Morrell.

We have definitely become more risk averse this season, hence some of the dull dross that we have seen at AG, and BS like "game management" when we are luckily 1:0 up against Brentford at home. And it has got worse since that run of 4 defeats, especially the one against Preston, when we were woeful.

The changes on Saturday gave Pisano & Kelly a rest, while playing 2 more attacking full backs, which was fair enough. Bringing in Adelakun for a run wasn't a bad idea, especially as Weimann looked out of sorts recently (probably frustrated at making lots of runs that are never seen by his team mates) but somewhat undone by Paterson being Paterson & O'Dowda playing poorly. What we desperately need is a shake up of our midfield and attack.

The obsession with wingers and crosses is not proving particularly effective, which is why we are struggling to score. We need to practice playing the ball quicker, into space and behind or beyond defenders, so they have to turn, and giving our forwards something to run onto.

My hope is that on Saturday we see more fringe players get a start, including Morrell and Eisa, and that we might find more options going forward. Huddersfield are there for the taking as their priority has to be Premier League survival, they can't score (except Mooy) and they have lost 5 or 6 in a row.

 

[Son of Fred]

17 hours ago, Hampshire Red said:

Cant possible agree with any of 36s comments; if Pack needed a rest Lj would give him one. What is this 'Love' nonsense you comment on re Pato. If Lj is any way nervous (and he has zero reason to be) why wouldnt he play his strongest team (rather than any fabricated 11 you may start with)?

FD doesn't look a fish out of water, not that i look at many. He looks in good form and has played some top performances recently as you may have seen at Derby, Birmingham where we gained 4 points from top 7 teams.

Like all your posts on "one of the brightest young managers" (Henry Winter, The Times Dec 15th) you are just miles off the mark. 300 games at the age of 37, out-doing most managers in the Championship and Jose all in the past 12 months. I don't think he has spent 'net millions' either! In fact he has 'sold net millions' because surely even with your biased, one-sided views you will remember we sold a 20-goal striker who is now proving a good sub in the top tier. We also sold a left back gaining first choice places at full back in the EPL and a centre back who was worth 5-10 goals a season. Those 3 alone earned us over £20m in one close season so not sure where your maths comes from.

 

Another point on squad rotation is we get criticised sometimes for not showing consistency of selections. Having 5 or 6 regulars on the bench means IF we bought two more players there would have to be more rotation. Likewise, if we brought back 10 of our players out on loan (Gary Owers yesterday) there would be squad revolution more than squad rotation

Squad rotation in the 14th century was CONSIDERABLY more widespread after "John"..............................

[Hampshire Red]

Davefevs, one of the most informative contributors to otib, imo

To answer your question directly, 9th or higher would please me and add one or two new players by May as a bonus (these could be Jan signings, our own back from loan or new academy starlet) 

6th - 3rd would be incredible but I feel unlikely. Automatics too far off but your stats re required wins may not be right this season with so many in the hunt. 

With only a single league game in Bristol until Feb 2nd, I also hope more people on OTiB start watching us away. We're good!  

[Davefevs]

9 minutes ago, Hampshire Red said:

Davefevs, one of the most informative contributors to otib, imo

To answer your question directly, 9th or higher would please me and add one or two new players by May as a bonus (these could be Jan signings, our own back from loan or new academy starlet) 

6th - 3rd would be incredible but I feel unlikely. Automatics too far off but your stats re required wins may not be right this season with so many in the hunt. 

With only a single league game in Bristol until Feb 2nd, I also hope more people on OTiB start watching us away. We're good!  

That’s got to be the aspiration hasn’t it....build on the recent momentum (if a bit stop/start), and try to bridge the gap.  Like you I think play-offs unlikely, but I would like to see us at least trying to get closer.

Personally, as a test for LJ, I would like him to sign nobody this window and use what he’s got (he can recall Moore, Vyner, Bakinson etc).  As an extra stretch he should trim the squad at the same time.

I know that won’t happen, but would be interesting to see.  We aren’t going down, I don’t think 54 points will be needed, probably 51 to be safe.  We have Bolton, Ipswich, Reading and Wigan at home.

[glynriley]

2 hours ago, Robert the bruce said:

Squad rotation in the 14th century was CONSIDERABLY more widespread after "John"..............................

Brilliant!! Got to love The Young Ones.

[Kevin Brady]

Eliasson and COD should start and perhaps Pack rested

[marcofisher]

19 hours ago, Hampshire Red said:

Cant possible agree with any of 36s comments; if Pack needed a rest Lj would give him one. What is this 'Love' nonsense you comment on re Pato. If Lj is any way nervous (and he has zero reason to be) why wouldnt he play his strongest team (rather than any fabricated 11 you may start with)?

Agree with everything you have said @Hampshire Red minus this first sentence. We do not have another player who can play at the base of midfield and break up play like Pack does unfortunately with Korey being out. Thus, we can't really give pack a rest as teams would cutting through us like butter. 

It is important we get Korey back soon as always thought he had worked well with Brownhill when Pack has been rested, this or we need to get another midfielder in. However, that brings another problem of giving us 5 midfielders in a system that only plays with 2.

In the system we currently playing, Pack and Korey are the two players that sit at the base of midfield, with Brownhill and Walsh being the two players who can drive from deep and link defence with attack. We can sit Korey and Pack in there and give our attacking players more freedom in attack, however to play Walsh and Brownhill as a midfield two would be kamikaze tactics. That coupled along with the fact that both Walsh and Korey have long term injuries means that Brownhill and Pack can't really be rested. 

I think this is reflecting on the pitch as well, Brownhill has been impressive, but Pack who has never seemed as natural an athlete hasn't hit the same heights as he has before, even though I wouldn't go as far to say he has been playing badly. This probably also reflects on the lack of a pressing game in recent weeks too, as we could've been one midfield injury away from a bit of a crisis. Now that we are in the transfer window perhaps we will see a change. 

 

4 minutes ago, Kevin Brady said:

Eliasson and COD should start and perhaps Pack rested

Who sits in front of the defence? Seems a crazy attacking line up to me!

[marcofisher]

18 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

That’s got to be the aspiration hasn’t it....build on the recent momentum (if a bit stop/start), and try to bridge the gap.  Like you I think play-offs unlikely, but I would like to see us at least trying to get closer.

Personally, as a test for LJ, I would like him to sign nobody this window and use what he’s got (he can recall Moore, Vyner, Bakinson etc).  As an extra stretch he should trim the squad at the same time.

I know that won’t happen, but would be interesting to see.  We aren’t going down, I don’t think 54 points will be needed, probably 51 to be safe.  We have Bolton, Ipswich, Reading and Wigan at home.

Is there really any logic to this though when looking if we were to look at the bigger picture? We could keep them playing professional football and integrate them into our team ready for next season. Vyner or Moore would not break into our current defence, would much rather see them playing week in week out.

[Davefevs]

12 minutes ago, marcofisher said:

Is there really any logic to this though when looking if we were to look at the bigger picture? We could keep them playing professional football and integrate them into our team ready for next season. Vyner or Moore would not break into our current defence, would much rather see them playing week in week out.

The logic is the bigger picture!  We lost £23m last season.  We sold £25m this season but spent £10m+ of it....that looks great doesn’t it?  But you have to factor in wages are already at least £5m more than income, it costs another £10m to run the club, plus any amortisation / depreciation....so we have little scope / funds to play with.  Further investment in the squad in January will mean losses that coupled with 17/18s loss will hamstring the summer window.

That is why LJ talks about trading....sell to buy.  The money isn’t there.

I would like him to use the resources he has previously decided fitted in with the plan...or I question why has that view changed?

Of course (going back to trading) if he were to offload someone like Baker, then he ought to be able to use those funds (or some of them).  Let’s not forget though that Baker was deemed to be Flint’s replacement (only 18 months ago), yet he needed to replace him again in the summer with Webster.  At £3.9m (ish) that’s a lot to have spent on back-up, of which we are very unlikely to recoup!

Just a general question.  At what point to we stop sending Vyner and Moore out on loan and treat them either as challengers for the CB spot, or decide they aren’t good enough?  In Moore’s case (and I rate him), how much are we recouping of his £1.5m fee from Southend?  Nothing, just a percentage of his wage no doubt.

Its not like Chelsea’s Tomas Kalas, who cost £5m in 2010, but who will be regularly recouping loan fees (I'm guessing a loan fee of £1m) from Fulham and Boro, and now us...plus a slug of his wages....whilst his value is retained it may even go up (talk of £8m if Fulham wanted him in the summer).  In contrast, you can’t think we’d get anything like £1.5m for Moore.  Our loan model isn’t the same.

I paint quite a bleak picture on the recruitment side.  That’s why I want Johnson to work with what he’s got, prove he is a good coach (I think he is) and improve our players.

[Son of Fred]

5 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

The logic is the bigger picture!  We lost £23m last season.  We sold £25m this season but spent £10m+ of it....that looks great doesn’t it?  But you have to factor in wages are already at least £5m more than income, it costs another £10m to run the club, plus any amortisation / depreciation....so we have little scope / funds to play with.  Further investment in the squad in January will mean losses that coupled with 17/18s loss will hamstring the summer window.

That is why LJ talks about trading....sell to buy.  The money isn’t there.

I would like him to use the resources he has previously decided fitted in with the plan...or I question why has that view changed?

Of course (going back to trading) if he were to offload someone like Baker, then he ought to be able to use those funds (or some of them).  Let’s not forget though that Baker was deemed to be Flint’s replacement (only 18 months ago), yet he needed to replace him again in the summer with Webster.  At £3.9m (ish) that’s a lot to have spent on back-up, of which we are very unlikely to recoup!

Just a general question.  At what point to we stop sending Vyner and Moore out on loan and treat them either as challengers for the CB spot, or decide they aren’t good enough?  In Moore’s case (and I rate him), how much are we recouping of his £1.5m fee from Southend?  Nothing, just a percentage of his wage no doubt.

Its not like Chelsea’s Tomas Kalas, who cost £5m in 2010, but who will be regularly recouping loan fees (I'm guessing a loan fee of £1m) from Fulham and Boro, and now us...plus a slug of his wages....whilst his value is retained it may even go up (talk of £8m if Fulham wanted him in the summer).  In contrast, you can’t think we’d get anything like £1.5m for Moore.  Our loan model isn’t the same.

I paint quite a bleak picture on the recruitment side.  That’s why I want Johnson to work with what he’s got, prove he is a good coach (I think he is) and improve our players.

Recruitment is my biggest concern.

Have we been spending too much on "one's for the future"??..and signings of the likes of Watkins & Wright(plus one or two others) are suprising if we genuinely are toiling towards that top six finish-theyre just not where it's at.

Re Moore,agree he's got all the attributes & I'm hoping his loan has toughened him up a bit..have watched him a good few times and forgive me for repeating 'meself but can't but help seing him as a very good right back/wing back.

[marcofisher]

49 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

The logic is the bigger picture!  We lost £23m last season.  We sold £25m this season but spent £10m+ of it....that looks great doesn’t it?  But you have to factor in wages are already at least £5m more than income, it costs another £10m to run the club, plus any amortisation / depreciation....so we have little scope / funds to play with.  Further investment in the squad in January will mean losses that coupled with 17/18s loss will hamstring the summer window.

That is why LJ talks about trading....sell to buy.  The money isn’t there.

I would like him to use the resources he has previously decided fitted in with the plan...or I question why has that view changed?

Of course (going back to trading) if he were to offload someone like Baker, then he ought to be able to use those funds (or some of them).  Let’s not forget though that Baker was deemed to be Flint’s replacement (only 18 months ago), yet he needed to replace him again in the summer with Webster.  At £3.9m (ish) that’s a lot to have spent on back-up, of which we are very unlikely to recoup!

Just a general question.  At what point to we stop sending Vyner and Moore out on loan and treat them either as challengers for the CB spot, or decide they aren’t good enough?  In Moore’s case (and I rate him), how much are we recouping of his £1.5m fee from Southend?  Nothing, just a percentage of his wage no doubt.

Its not like Chelsea’s Tomas Kalas, who cost £5m in 2010, but who will be regularly recouping loan fees (I'm guessing a loan fee of £1m) from Fulham and Boro, and now us...plus a slug of his wages....whilst his value is retained it may even go up (talk of £8m if Fulham wanted him in the summer).  In contrast, you can’t think we’d get anything like £1.5m for Moore.  Our loan model isn’t the same.

I paint quite a bleak picture on the recruitment side.  That’s why I want Johnson to work with what he’s got, prove he is a good coach (I think he is) and improve our players.

100% agree with what you are saying, but when you factor in the fact that in the summer we will lose Kalas and also Wright, wouldn't it simply just be a smoother transition to put in Moore and Vyner then? It's not like they are a new signing, they have been around the squad for years.

[Davefevs]

3 minutes ago, marcofisher said:

100% agree with what you are saying, but when you factor in the fact that in the summer we will lose Kalas and also Wright, wouldn't it simply just be a smoother transition to put in Moore and Vyner then? It's not like they are a new signing, they have been around the squad for years.

Quite possibly.

(Wright has a year option though)

[Major Isewater]

18 hours ago, Red Right Hand said:

I`m thinking this more and more TBH. He`s so terrified of another bad run that he`s trying to set us up not to lose most of the time. Maybe when we get to 45 odd points with a dozen or so games left it might change? I agree about the cup game and in truth am looking forward to hopefully to seeing a few fringe players like Morrell.

I had hoped that LJ would be a little more pragmatic with his tactics , avoiding the balls out , all or nothing approach that most often ended up with nothing.

We are on an unbeaten streak and are looking more solid than last season.

Now people are moaning about lack of ‘ entertainment ‘ . You can’t please everyone all the time .

LJ. needs to find the balance now and we are good to progress if he does.

[cidered abroad]

If and its a big if, Johnson rests Pack, If it was me in charge, I would go with a defensive structure of this against Stoke.

Maenpaa

Pisano Wright Kalas Kelly

Webster sitting in front with some licence to go forward.

Midfield four of O'Dowda Brownhill Dasilva Eliasson

Plus Diedhiou

[chinapig]

5 hours ago, Davefevs said:

That’s got to be the aspiration hasn’t it....build on the recent momentum (if a bit stop/start), and try to bridge the gap.  Like you I think play-offs unlikely, but I would like to see us at least trying to get closer.

Personally, as a test for LJ, I would like him to sign nobody this window and use what he’s got (he can recall Moore, Vyner, Bakinson etc).  As an extra stretch he should trim the squad at the same time.

I know that won’t happen, but would be interesting to see.  We aren’t going down, I don’t think 54 points will be needed, probably 51 to be safe.  We have Bolton, Ipswich, Reading and Wigan at home.

Absolutely agree but can you imagine the outrage on here if we make no signings in January?

In some quarters there will be anger if we do make signings but they are not so-called big names.

I wonder if Ashton has given LJ his approved list yet?