The Championship FFP Thread (Merged)

[Mr Popodopolous]

Cesare Casadei to Reading on loan.

Wonder what kind of Chelsea subsidy this is- it makes a bit more sense as he's a young player but he's an Italy U21 international midfielder Chelsea to Reading from Inter's academy to Chelsea, £12m plus £4m in add-ons.

Blah blah backstory, has massive promise but should a team under FFP restrictions having already failed it in 2021 be able to sign a player such as this on loan from Chelsea?

Some of the business there- Rahman and Drinkwater season loans, followed by Rahman and possibly this half season loan feels like unfair subsidy. Especially when Reading last season we're restricted to £8.5k per week on new signings, total player wage remuneration £21.2m last year was the cap, this year £16m.

Should such deals be included at a good chunk of their actual rate for FFP purposes even if the actual books show a massage subsidy- being younger this player maybe on a lower wage but the profile I'd think not that tiny. Much like Watford and Udinese in particular, this doesn't seem right.

A club with a £39m pre tax loss in 2020-21, whose likely income this season won't be much above £20m I expect.

Edited January 30, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

I will say I've given them flak and scrutiny but if Souttar goes for £15m then thst is FFP also well and truly netted off for Stoke I'd have thought.

Edited January 31, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

Sheffield United.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-11714809/Questions-raised-wealth-potential-new-Sheffield-United-owner-huge-stock-market-drop.html

Wasn't there some stipulation about 30 days to settle debt or further transfer related sanctions? Granted if loan taken our that can cover and all debts settled if promoted.

https://www.sheffieldunited.news/news/sheffield-united-facing-18-month-transfer-ban-with-takeover-held-up/

Seem to recall that the embargo kicked in 20th January or somesuch.

[Davefevs]

Here you go Mr P (et all), Stoke’s Technical Director Ricky Martin explaining their winter window.

He’s very careful on his wording of the Souttar deal and what can be spent going forward, but talks about using the early weeks on the window to get players out to bring them inside FFP.

Some useful pics I grabbed too.

All Champ clubs:

I didn’t go much on his five pillars - cultural architects -

 

[ExiledAjax]

21 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Here you go Mr P (et all), Stoke’s Technical Director Ricky Martin explaining their winter window.

He’s very careful on his wording of the Souttar deal and what can be spent going forward, but talks about using the early weeks on the window to get players out to bring them inside FFP.

Some useful pics I grabbed too.

All Champ clubs:

I didn’t go much on his five pillars - cultural architects -

 

Retruned.

One question - how do you think returning loanees help them clear FFP? I'd have thought that returning loanees cost you more wages no?

Also yeh noticed on Souttar he carefully said that "any excess money will be reinvested". The 5 pillars seems a bit too rigid, but ultimately he's describing squad balance, which yeh of course you want.

I'd not twigged that Swansea brought no one in.

Hope we get something similar from Tinnion or Alexander soon.

[Mr Popodopolous]

29 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Here you go Mr P (et all), Stoke’s Technical Director Ricky Martin explaining their winter window.

He’s very careful on his wording of the Souttar deal and what can be spent going forward, but talks about using the early weeks on the window to get players out to bring them inside FFP.

Some useful pics I grabbed too.

All Champ clubs:

I didn’t go much on his five pillars - cultural architects -

 

Cheers Dave should be an interesting watch.

 

6 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

Retruned.

One question - how do you think returning loanees help them clear FFP? I'd have thought that returning loanees cost you more wages no?

Also yeh noticed on Souttar he carefully said that "any excess money will be reinvested". The 5 pillars seems a bit too rigid, but ultimately he's describing squad balance, which yeh of course you want.

I'd not twigged that Swansea brought no one in.

Hope we get something similar from Tinnion or Alexander soon.

Depends on how the deals are structured? Remember all loaning clubs are equal but some seem to be more equal than others.

Perhaps Stoke paid by the week for them or in two tranches and thst plus Bursik took them safe, netted off by cheaper future loans.

Edited February 7, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[ExiledAjax]

2 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Depends on how the deals are structured? Remember all loaning clubs are equal but some seem to be more equal than others.

Ah he means those 4 players on loan at Stoke going back to their parent club doesn't he! I'd first thought he meant players Stoke had out on loan coming back to them.

Edited February 7, 2023 by ExiledAjax

[Davefevs]

3 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

Ah he means those 4 players on loan at Stoke going back to their parent club doesn't he! I'd first thought he meant players Stoke had out on loan coming back to them.

Yes, the Delap’s and the like going back.

[Davefevs]

8 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Perhaps Stoke paid by the week for them or in two tranches and thst plus Bursik took them safe, netted off by cheaper future loans.

That won’t really matter, that’s Cashflow….they’ll have budgeted for Delap (example) for the whole season…and then realised they needed to claw some money back for FFP, so will then have worked out how much they save by sending him back.  It might be less than 50% though!!!

[Mr Popodopolous]

Just now, Davefevs said:

That won’t really matter, that’s Cashflow….they’ll have budgeted for Delap (example) for the whole season…and then realised they needed to claw some money back for FFP, so will then have worked out how much they save by sending him back.  It might be less than 50% though!!!

Yeah true, what I mean is maybe it wasnt an upfront fee for the season, wasn't really aware loan deals were structured in that way.

[Mr Popodopolous]

One for @Hxj

Before I forget, IIRC unless I imagined it wasn't it said that Stoke's Covid add-backs were being investigated? Presumably that has all been rubber stamped or is that still a live issue. Sure you mentioned it once but maybe I was mistaken.

Edited February 7, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Davefevs]

20 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Yeah true, what I mean is maybe it wasnt an upfront fee for the season, wasn't really aware loan deals were structured in that way.

To be fair the6 can be structured however you like.  A loan fee, wage contribution, penalties for not playing, etc…and combos of all of them , including payment terms.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Should probably add too, think Stoke are compliant now in any event owing to Bursik, Collins, Souttar- all academy, all profit and didn't Souttar have a sell on clause roo- Fulham made major losses, £161m across 2018-19, 2019-20 and 2020-21 with 2021-22 still to come...we know at minimum they sought to add £20m impairment as a Covid cost in 2020-21.

[Davefevs]

24 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Should probably add too, think Stoke are compliant now in any event owing to Bursik, Collins, Souttar- all academy, all profit and didn't Souttar have a sell on clause roo- Fulham made major losses, £161m across 2018-19, 2019-20 and 2020-21 with 2021-22 still to come...we know at minimum they sought to add £20m impairment as a Covid cost in 2020-21.

I see what you did there

[NcnsBcfc]

4 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Should probably add too, think Stoke are compliant now in any event owing to Bursik, Collins, Souttar- all academy, all profit and didn't Souttar have a sell on clause roo- Fulham made major losses, £161m across 2018-19, 2019-20 and 2020-21 with 2021-22 still to come...we know at minimum they sought to add £20m impairment as a Covid cost in 2020-21.

Think Dundee Utd had a 20% sell on for Souttar. Decent money for them up in Scotland.

[downendcity]

23 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Here you go Mr P (et all), Stoke’s Technical Director Ricky Martin explaining their winter window.

He’s very careful on his wording of the Souttar deal and what can be spent going forward, but talks about using the early weeks on the window to get players out to bring them inside FFP.

Some useful pics I grabbed too.

All Champ clubs:

I didn’t go much on his five pillars - cultural architects -

 

Asked how he feels about getting in £15m from the Souttar sale after struggling to sort out their potential ffp issues, he said it's like Livin' La  Vida Loca.

[Hxj]

Not sure Stoke are sorted yet for previous years - Bursik move simply enabled a few moves in January - Souttar sorts to 2022/23 with little left on the assumption that PYs are agreed.

2023/24 is a new year ....

[Mr Popodopolous]

12 minutes ago, Hxj said:

Not sure Stoke are sorted yet for previous years - Bursik move simply enabled a few moves in January - Souttar sorts to 2022/23 with little left on the assumption that PYs are agreed.

2023/24 is a new year ....

Stoke fans are reasonably bullish and from the bits I've been reading they didn't need to sell Souttar for FFP, indeed their technical director has implied this? 

When their final accounts are out for last season, Stoke City Holdings a clearer picture will emerge- SwissRamble also had suggested their usual FFP allowances (academy etc) are £9m per sesson which certainly helps.

What about Fulham and Nottingham Forest sorted do you think or still a live issue?

I now have full confidence that we are clear to 2023, Semenyo sale has dome the job.

Reading must have gone some really gone some given their likely turnover to fall in line with the Business Plan.

Edited February 8, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Davefevs]

14 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Stoke fans are reasonably bullish and from the bits I've been reading they didn't need to sell Souttar for FFP, indeed their technical director has implied this? 

When their final accounts are out for last season, Stoke City Holdings a clearer picture will emerge- SwissRamble also had suggested their usual FFP allowances (academy etc) are £9m per sesson which certainly helps.

What about Fulham and Nottingham Forest sorted do you think or still a live issue?

I now have full confidence that we are clear to 2023, Semenyo sale has dome the job.

Reading must have gone some really gone some given their likely turnover to fall in line with the Business Plan.

I guess there’s a subtlety in didn’t need to sell Souttar to pass FFP this year, but that’s not to say subsequent years might not be an issue.  Again careful wording used, ie control our own destiny in the summer.  That could mean they don’t have to sell to buy, but lots of mentions of free transfer / OOC players, suggesting they are still gonna be constrained to some extent.

[Hxj]

22 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I guess there’s a subtlety in didn’t need to sell Souttar to pass FFP this year

More like didn't need to sell in January.

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

I guess there’s a subtlety in didn’t need to sell Souttar to pass FFP this year, but that’s not to say subsequent years might not be an issue.  Again careful wording used, ie control our own destiny in the summer.  That could mean they don’t have to sell to buy, but lots of mentions of free transfer / OOC players, suggesting they are still gonna be constrained to some extent.

A lot out of contract which may help, perhaps they can pay decent wages for said free agents. If course the new 90-80-70 rule will affect clubs but in different ways..

1 hour ago, Hxj said:

More like didn't need to sell in January.

Wondered thst myself. Have until end of May/June as with all clubs.

Under what circs would an FFP deduction for the existing season be activated during said season around April- are there any?

Based on the strength of the Projection and the two actual I mean.

Edited February 8, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

Two bits of football finance news. Both involving the top two.

1) Appears that Burnley may have paid off MSD.

2) 30 day rule for embargo to he settled or it may progress. Sheffield United depending of when it begun, ie was it two Business days before or the day that it appeared on EFL website?

Anyway it still shows Sheffield United as under embargo- first report of this was 20th January 2023, 6 or 7 days to get it removed...ie resolve. Does the clock start two days before or from the day it is 'live' on the EFL site.

Edited February 13, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

It also raises an interesting issue because if they (Sheffield United) get promoted still under embargo- well past the 30 days I mean- then they go up in breach of obligations.

One potential sanction is unable to sign anyone for a fee for 18 months so presumably summer 2024 but if promoted that no longer holds?? That'd be an appalling message to send but otoh Sheffield United going up would instantly see it resolvable via PL cash but again a terrible message to send.

[Mr Popodopolous]

As for the here and now, the following accounts are due at the end of the month- to last season!

This will include clubs who were and remain Championship clubs, ones who were promoted from the Championship last season and ones who were relegated last season from the Championship plus promoted to the level and relegated from the PL in 2021-22. These are accounts made up to end of May 2022.

1. Barnsley

2. Cardiff

3. Coventry

4. QPR

5. Stoke- although maybe a little can be extrapolated.

We of course released back in November after an early nod at the Fans Forum.

The following are due at the end of March or so...

1. Birmingham- although the BSH segmented results give us a fair idea.

2. Blackburn- although VLL gives us  fair idea.

3. Blackpool

4. Bournemouth

5. Fulham

6. Huddersfield

7. Hull

8. Luton

9. Nottingham Forest

10. Peterborough

11. Reading

12. Rotherham

13. Sheffield United

14. Watford

15. West Brom

16. Wigan

Middlesbrough, Millwall, Norwich and Preston, all due end of March have already released.

Burnley, Sunderland and Swansea all due at end of April.

Some of the above will include Holding companies, subsidiaries etc.

Derby due to Covid and insolvency issues etc didn't release any accounts in 2019-20, 2020-21,  2021-22 (for 2018-19, 2019-20, 2020-21) and the same applies here- nothing due until next year for this season.

Maybe Sheffield Wednesday also worth a look as quite large losses in 2019-20.and 2020-21...how woukd the £39m carry over with the combined Covid season as T-2 and T-3 average. They too are end of April.

All can release to the EFL and indeed their fans whenever they want so long as it's not later than 1st March 2023 and 9 months after reporting period respectively but a huge lack of candour to date!

See also PL clubs still there from last season. Only Arsenal, Man City, Man United, Tottenham and West Ham have released to date! Man United release was due to US Stock Exchange rules and their 1st quarter for this season looks bad- 2nd due end of this month.

Plus Norwich of those relegated.

Edited February 13, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

I go on about them a fair bit but a good article albeit in Italian about PSG and their FFP.

https://www.ilfattoquotidiano.it/2023/02/14/paris-saint-germain-i-numeri-di-una-presa-in-giro-dal-fair-play-finanziario-alla-sostenibilita-ecco-cosa-la-uefa-fa-finta-di-non-vedere/7064003/

It's in Italian, Google Translate etc but I've been a critic of them for some time. Rightly so.

It's in Euros and as per Swiss Ramble they appear to be fine to 2021 but...

That €59m drops off to 2022 to be replaced by the starting point of €59m in 2018-19. Which means in theory that they require a €20m FFP profit just to hit the level.

Reportedly lost €369m pre tax!! In that one year.

Yet a fine of 'only' €65m, 80-85 pct of it to be paid only if they don't stick to agreement. Such fines have been traditionally excluded from FFP calculations too. I guess a mix of Covid and the change of system helped but them and Juventus had losses that were off the charts.

Their wage bill alone last season was reportedly 109 pct of turnover.

Edited February 14, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

Sheffield United, reckon their embargone soon! If there are still any instalment embargo issues I'd be surprised.

[Hxj]

Technically someone gave Sheffield United £27.6 million for some almost worthless pieces of paper.  Probably to clear FFP funding to access the £13 million loss limit plus other cash losses.

A quick guess would be that it was Blades Leisure Limited the current owner.

So entirely routine for a Championship football club.

Edited February 14, 2023 by Hxj

[bcfc01]

I see that Reading, with all their Chelsea loanees/connections, are currently 0-1 against Rotherham and in 18th position...

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

2-1 up now!

PL loanee (Fornah) and Carroll-- two Chelsea loanees at a massive discount under a business plan still doesn't sit well.

1 hour ago, Hxj said:

Technically someone gave Sheffield United £27.6 million for some almost worthless pieces of paper.  Probably to clear FFP funding to access the £13 million loss limit plus other cash losses.

A quick guess would be that it was Blades Leisure Limited the current owner.

So entirely routine for a Championship football club.

Oh yeah I get that, the FFP consideration and such but embargo to he cleared as a result?

[Mr Popodopolous]

Seeing the stuff about equity etc reminded me.

What relationship between losses and updates to equity etc can be drawn? Fulham and their numbers in recent years are quite something- using Fulham Football Leisure as my baseline here.

£499.5m (give or take) put in from 2016-17 to 2021-22. £116.5m of that last season- some will be forward looking.

Fulham Football Leisure losses pre tax in the 1st 5 of those seasons are as follows- we are still awaiting 2021-22.

2016-17 £21,317,000

2017-18 £45,241,000

2018-19 £20,180,000

2019-20 £48,112,000

2020-21 £93,483,000

2021-22 ??? Still to be decided.

Just trying to extrapolate their potential losses last season and in an FFP context. Starting point is:

2018-19 £20,180,000

2019-20 and 2020-21- £48,112,000 and £93,483,000...the aggregate of this is £141,595,000 and therefore the average is £70,797,500.

Their Upper Loss Limit through dint of yoyoing and Covid average is £72m. Just trying to work out their max pre tax and then FFP Loss before last sesson kicks in as an issue.

Edited February 15, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous