chinapig Posted May 1, 2023 Report Share Posted May 1, 2023 On 30/04/2023 at 12:55, Mr Popodopolous said: If West Brom stay down it's more succinctly put than me. Worth remembering too that they were in the PL in 2003-04. I would say though, I am sure there was something even pre the formal introduction as if you look at relegated clubs accounts you will see higher TV revenue in the season following relegation than their regular Championship peers. Perhaps there was always something in the PL era but it used to be far, far lower and not exceeding 2 years. Plus they have a dodgy owner taking money out of the club to fund his other businesses and took out a £20m loan to cover costs for this season. Some Albion fans are fully expecting Administration if they aren't promoted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted May 1, 2023 Author Report Share Posted May 1, 2023 Sorry my post should have been written 2004-05. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted May 1, 2023 Author Report Share Posted May 1, 2023 10 minutes ago, chinapig said: Plus they have a dodgy owner taking money out of the club to fund his other businesses and took out a £20m loan to cover costs for this season. Some Albion fans are fully expecting Administration if they aren't promoted. Oe maybe they will try and gamble and do a Sheffield United, delaying, deferring bills instalments, hoping something turns up etc. That's completely wrong but that seemingly formed part of Sheffield United's strategy albeit possibly linked to takeover and use PL money to resolve all issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chinapig Posted May 1, 2023 Report Share Posted May 1, 2023 8 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said: Oe maybe they will try and gamble and do a Sheffield United, delaying, deferring bills instalments, hoping something turns up etc. That's completely wrong but that seemingly formed part of Sheffield United's strategy albeit possibly linked to takeover and use PL money to resolve all issues. I think that would only delay the inevitable. Though I do wonder if they are keeping up payments on the loan from (I think) MSD. But there is no prospect of a takeover since the owner is allegedly asking for £150m to sell! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted May 1, 2023 Author Report Share Posted May 1, 2023 (edited) 9 minutes ago, chinapig said: I think that would only delay the inevitable. Though I do wonder if they are keeping up payments on the loan from (I think) MSD. But there is no prospect of a takeover since the owner is allegedly asking for £150m to sell! Default on the MSD loan given how secured it is could trigger bad and swift consequences. I stick by my view about Sheffield United, clubs allowing other clubs to rework instalments their decision but it doesn't sit well really. Edited May 1, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted May 1, 2023 Author Report Share Posted May 1, 2023 Kieran Maguire analysis of Swansea. Not yet been able to find them myself but anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted May 1, 2023 Author Report Share Posted May 1, 2023 In respect of the Parachute Payments and whether they existed pre 2006-07 I found this comparative TV distributions to be of interest. Sunderland, West Brom and West Ham in 2003-04 then Sunderland and West Ham in 2004-05 Vs I dunno Nottingham Forest and Preston across those two seasons but it could be any non yoyo, non Parachute Payments club. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted May 1, 2023 Author Report Share Posted May 1, 2023 Sunderland, West Brom and West Ham Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted May 1, 2023 Author Report Share Posted May 1, 2023 Vs I dunno, Burnley and Nottingham Forest. The first 3 were relegated clubs, the other two were not. Huge disparity, cannot be just down to match fees. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted May 1, 2023 Author Report Share Posted May 1, 2023 (edited) One more note, Blackburn. Saw that they are losing to Luton and it reminded me. Not that they are anywhere near it yet but if they don't get up via the playoffs. Lost £10-11m last year pre tax despite the sale of Armstrong. Lost Nyambe, Lenihan and Rothwell on frees. Then Brereton-Diaz will be out the door for free..suddenly unable to reinvest for most of the spine of a team, Kaminski had he not signed a new deal would make it the full spine. Still sometime left, plus they go to Millwall on the final day so not out of it but interesting to see... Edited May 1, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted May 1, 2023 Author Report Share Posted May 1, 2023 (edited) Millwall and Preston for a long time models...their losses are potentially steadily creeping up, Preston in particular. It has to still be enforced rigorously the next couple of years, these clubs entering the cycle- we made some major sacrifices and or sales. In varied ways additionally, any or all of Birmingham, Cardiff, QPR, Swansea, West Brom, maybe more- including some relegated clubs potentially. £20m loss for Preston lat year pre tax is startlingly high for them! Norwich and Watford will also see headroom shrink. Edited May 1, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W-S-M Seagull Posted May 2, 2023 Report Share Posted May 2, 2023 7 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said: In respect of the Parachute Payments and whether they existed pre 2006-07 I found this comparative TV distributions to be of interest. Sunderland, West Brom and West Ham in 2003-04 then Sunderland and West Ham in 2004-05 Vs I dunno Nottingham Forest and Preston across those two seasons but it could be any non yoyo, non Parachute Payments club. Wasn't that around the same time that Boltons Phil Gartside was proposing a Premier League two? Parachute payments in a way do kind of create a Premier League two. I don't see the point of them. I understand its to protect a club from a huge drop in income but If a club gets relegated then they could just sell the valuable players that they purchased. What parachute payments do is allow clubs to keep those players and to then challenge for promotion again. So essentially creating a Premier league closed shop because its the same clubs going up and down. In my opinion the money the Premier League pays out in parachute payments should just be split equally between the 24 clubs. Combine that with a salary cap and it creates a more level playing field in the Championship. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledAjax Posted May 2, 2023 Report Share Posted May 2, 2023 @Mr Popodopolous I went for £13m(ish) yes. Rough as you like calculations and a lot of unfounded assumptions, but yeh I think that were headed for £(20)m before player trading, then the balance of trading in January probably gave us approximately a £7m profit. So yep £(13)m is my rough estimate. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted May 2, 2023 Author Report Share Posted May 2, 2023 7 hours ago, W-S-M Seagull said: Wasn't that around the same time that Boltons Phil Gartside was proposing a Premier League two? Parachute payments in a way do kind of create a Premier League two. I don't see the point of them. I understand its to protect a club from a huge drop in income but If a club gets relegated then they could just sell the valuable players that they purchased. What parachute payments do is allow clubs to keep those players and to then challenge for promotion again. So essentially creating a Premier league closed shop because its the same clubs going up and down. In my opinion the money the Premier League pays out in parachute payments should just be split equally between the 24 clubs. Combine that with a salary cap and it creates a more level playing field in the Championship. From memory that was the late 2000's the PL 2 stuff but the two may have coincided. Tend to agree. The Solidarity Payments part of the equation filters down the 3 divisions so could complicate but my proposed solution at one level was: One Pot 1) Parachute Payments 2) Solidarity Payments Aggregated and then split by division based on EFL TV revenue distribution. ie if it's a 70-20-10 split the Championship gets that 70 pct. Then obviously that 70 pct is split evenly between the 24 clubs in the division. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob26 Posted May 2, 2023 Report Share Posted May 2, 2023 (edited) 17 hours ago, chinapig said: Plus they have a dodgy owner taking money out of the club to fund his other businesses and took out a £20m loan to cover costs for this season. Some Albion fans are fully expecting Administration if they aren't promoted. administration is probs a stretch, saying that i've not looked into any numbers but you know what fans are like, they always over egg every situation good or bad, and when its back the vocal parts often go full on doom and gloom. might be forced into a flash sale tho that makes the team very uncompetitive and then put the club up for sale, think the owner might want to avoid administration since it will no doubt mean he has to pay his loan back :laugh:, could be a load of re-structuring their finances as well Edited May 2, 2023 by Rob26 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted May 2, 2023 Author Report Share Posted May 2, 2023 7 minutes ago, Rob26 said: administration is probs a stretch, saying that i've not looked into any numbers but you know what fans are like, they always over egg every situation good or bad, and when its back the vocal parts often go full on doom and gloom. might be forced into a flash sale tho that makes the team very uncompetitive and then put the club up for sale, think the owner might want to avoid administration since it will no doubt mean he has to pay his loan back :laugh:, could be a load of re-structuring their finances as well Kieran Maguire did a breakdown a while ago. I am unsure if administration is so likely but they face a double if not triple whammy of interest payments on MSD, Parachute Payments dropping to Solidarity Payments and wages alone probably exceed income. MSD loan is repayable over 4 years but at 13-14 pct interest. Maybe they'll try to sell the bare minimum that is enough to keep the ship afloat and give it one more year attempting to go up, how feasible I dunno. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted May 2, 2023 Author Report Share Posted May 2, 2023 (edited) Burnley by the way, still have not released their accounts. Either on the website or to CH. The League seem not to have received them for last sesson either. As I recall they all said it would be sorted by mid April. They however have received Projections for this season, the League that is as that charge has been removed. Edited May 2, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chinapig Posted May 2, 2023 Report Share Posted May 2, 2023 8 minutes ago, Rob26 said: administration is probs a stretch, saying that i've not looked into any numbers but you know what fans are like, they always over egg every situation good or bad, and when its back the vocal parts often go full on doom and gloom. might be forced into a flash sale tho that makes the team very uncompetitive and then put the club up for sale, think the owner might want to avoid administration since it will no doubt mean he has to pay his loan back :laugh:, could be a load of re-structuring their finances as well You may be right but this is not an owner who appears to put the interests of the club first, hence him taking money out of the club and not repaying it. He may be unlikely to put the club into administration himself but should they not keep up the payments to MSD they might force the issue for instance. And as I posted before he is said to want £150m for the club, way beyond any sensible value. One way or another though they will be in trouble if they aren't promoted. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chinapig Posted May 2, 2023 Report Share Posted May 2, 2023 14 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said: Kieran Maguire did a breakdown a while ago. I am unsure if administration is so likely but they face a double if not triple whammy of interest payments on MSD, Parachute Payments dropping to Solidarity Payments and wages alone probably exceed income. MSD loan is repayable over 4 years but at 13-14 pct interest. Maybe they'll try to sell the bare minimum that is enough to keep the ship afloat and give it one more year attempting to go up, how feasible I dunno. Maguire also interviewed a guy from the Albion fans group, who was very clued up. Their fears are not unfounded for sure. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted May 2, 2023 Author Report Share Posted May 2, 2023 35 minutes ago, chinapig said: Maguire also interviewed a guy from the Albion fans group, who was very clued up. Their fears are not unfounded for sure. Plus the question of the 3 year loss limit for West Brom gets very little analysis but. I believe they are aok to this season and before. To next and beyond though. 1) Their headroom to next year assuming still a Championship club shrinks to £39m plus allowables. 2) Their accounts last year showed a £2m pre tax profit iirc bit that was in Year 1 of Parachute Payments and included £16m of Player Sale Profits. That was shown as a £5m loss due to the Loan Write off but whether that should be included in FFP or treated ad a £2m profit who knows. 3) Nobody of note seems to have been sold this year, the odd player sure and some costs down but no 8 figure fees e.g. Parachute Payments also down £5-10m in 2ns year iirc. 3) Next year at best core income will be £25-30m, maybe even as low as £20-25m. Parachute down to Solidarity money... Hmm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted May 2, 2023 Author Report Share Posted May 2, 2023 The other thing. I see increasing chatter by Cardiff fans that they need to spend more. How exactly do they square this with P&S when an £11-12m average pre tax loss with Parachute Payments is replaced by a £26m pre tax loss without in the upcoming cycle to 2023-24. They are now in a Post Parachute Payments era and the Covid add-backs which predominantly will have been in the main 2 seasons. Plus the requirement in Future Financial Information and Projections to stay within over the next year if not 2 if the 3 year adjusted loss is between £15-39m. What am I missing here. @Montpelierblue how do you square that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hxj Posted May 2, 2023 Report Share Posted May 2, 2023 Football finance related, but not Championship FFP, but probably makes more sense here than anywhere else. A small insight into the huge sums of cash sloshing through football came out at a recent Tax Tribunal case: SPORTS INVEST UK LIMITED v Revenue & Customs (place of supply of football agent services - transfer of player from Sporting Lisbon to Inter Milan in 2016) Anything but paragraph 8(1) to 8(48) is for the diehards only. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W-S-M Seagull Posted May 2, 2023 Report Share Posted May 2, 2023 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob26 Posted May 3, 2023 Report Share Posted May 3, 2023 https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/may/03/oligarch-funded-everton-football-club-while-barred-from-uk-alisher-usmanov?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other more fun for the toffees :laugh: 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob26 Posted May 3, 2023 Report Share Posted May 3, 2023 aww poor barca :9 https://www.sport.es/en/news/barca/bad-news-for-barca-no-deal-reached-with-la-liga-8670847 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted May 3, 2023 Author Report Share Posted May 3, 2023 Their model of FFP which is over and above the UEFA one ie La Liga clubs operate under both, may restore a bit of sanity. Could you imagine if PSG e.g. were under that? Who incidentally appear to get a free pass from the French authorities and not that much from UEFA. They intervened ie La Liga on RPT related issues and readjusted budgets accordingly albeit for a smaller club. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Geoff Posted May 3, 2023 Report Share Posted May 3, 2023 On 02/05/2023 at 01:32, W-S-M Seagull said: Wasn't that around the same time that Boltons Phil Gartside was proposing a Premier League two? Parachute payments in a way do kind of create a Premier League two. I don't see the point of them. I understand its to protect a club from a huge drop in income but If a club gets relegated then they could just sell the valuable players that they purchased. What parachute payments do is allow clubs to keep those players and to then challenge for promotion again. So essentially creating a Premier league closed shop because its the same clubs going up and down. In my opinion the money the Premier League pays out in parachute payments should just be split equally between the 24 clubs. Combine that with a salary cap and it creates a more level playing field in the Championship. That is exactly why they were introduced and Premier League clubs are keen to keep them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted May 3, 2023 Author Report Share Posted May 3, 2023 (edited) 23 minutes ago, Sir Geoff said: That is exactly why they were introduced and Premier League clubs are keen to keep them. Although I'm sure there was something before namely a £7-8m TV revenue difference in 2003-04 between Championship regulars and freshly relegated clubs, it seemed to last for 2 years. ie if a club relegated from PL they got £8-9m in Year 1, a bit less in Year 2 then down to Championship money thereafter. Sunderland, West Brom and West Ham in 2003-04 vs say Burnley and Nottingham Forest are a food case study. Also in the case of Sunderland and West Ham in 2004-05 vs typical Championship sides. Edited May 3, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob26 Posted May 3, 2023 Report Share Posted May 3, 2023 10 minutes ago, Sir Geoff said: That is exactly why they were introduced and Premier League clubs are keen to keep them. I don't think it makes a closed shop, only feel its common that only 1 of the 3 teams that go down usually bounce back at first time of asking. but do think they should be phased out and force clubs to make provisions for if the worst happens, by either making rules or letting them deal with it the hard way, if a club can't plan for however unlikely scenario of relegation then they deserve to get stuck in the championship or worse for not having a contingency in their club. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted May 3, 2023 Report Share Posted May 3, 2023 Since they announced the change of PPs from £48m to £90m+ in summer of 2015 (PPs came in at end of 2006-07), here are the clubs that went up: Dark green - straight back up (8 in 8 seasons) Light green - promoted whilst still getting PPs (6 in Pink - relegated straight away (9 in 7 seasons, this season tbc) Definitely as you say (@rob26) 1 team bouncing straight back up. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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