The Championship FFP Thread (Merged)

[Hxj]

4 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Out of interest, How is Kalas’s inbound transfer (01.07.2019 - 19/20 accounts - summer 2019 window) from Chelsea linked / connected to Kelly’s outbound transfer (18.05.2019 - 18/19 season - summer 2019 window) to Bournemouth…other than by date / window?

The question is, would you have signed Kalas if Kelly had stayed?  Is he not a replacement?

This isn't an accounting issue, but an FFP issue.  As I said I have no idea where this view comes from but it persists in my head.

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong.

 

[Davefevs]

7 hours ago, Hxj said:

The question is, would you have signed Kalas if Kelly had stayed?  Is he not a replacement?

This isn't an accounting issue, but an FFP issue.  As I said I have no idea where this view comes from but it persists in my head.

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong.

 

Ah, that’s the angle you’re looking at it from.

[NcnsBcfc]

11 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

 

I do agree although vanity not just with Ashton IMO but also SL spoke of his pride didn't he about finally turning a profit.

Bonus considerations a good point too.

I wonder if too if a factor could have been to fall below the £15m Lower Loss future monitoring limit, that bit is pure speculation on my part but the monitoring could have been reduced further if adjusted losses in a given period fall below £15m.

All the same it did seem oddly rushed. Would have reduced FFP pressure a lot last season had the Kelly sale been in 2019-20 rather than 2018-19.

100% this @Davefevs

Ashton wanted to portray himself as the first CEO to produce a profit in over 20 years, through his amazing wheeler dealing and talent spotting .

There was no other reason for the Kelly money to be included in the 2018-19 accounts other than this in my opinion. Really messed us up FFP wise in the following years.

[Bristol Rob]

8 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Out of interest, How is Kalas’s inbound transfer (01.07.2019 - 19/20 accounts - summer 2019 window) from Chelsea linked / connected to Kelly’s outbound transfer (18.05.2019 - 18/19 season - summer 2019 window) to Bournemouth…other than by proximity of date / window?

The transfer profit stated looks to include the full amount for Kelly, whilst the intangible assets looks to include the full cost as an “addition”.

Transfer profit in 18/19 accounts is £38m (Reid, Bryan, Flint and Kelly)

Additions in 19/20 accounts is £26m (Kalas, Bentley, Massengo, Nagy, Dasilva, Palmer, Wells etc)

And would Webster have developed in to the player he became if playing alongside someone who wasn't Kalas?

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 hour ago, NcnsBcfc said:

100% this @Davefevs

Ashton wanted to portray himself as the first CEO to produce a profit in over 20 years, through his amazing wheeler dealing and talent spotting .

There was no other reason for the Kelly money to be included in the 2018-19 accounts other than this in my opinion. Really messed us up FFP wise in the following years.

Whatever the main reason, SL certainly would have been on board.

From 2019, the year of the Profit.

https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/every-word-steve-lansdown-bristol-3481090

 

Edited July 5, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[chinapig]

33 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Whatever the main reason, SL certainly would have been on board.

From 2019, the year of the Profit.

https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/every-word-steve-lansdown-bristol-3481090

 

Why talk about sustainability then allow Ashton to double the wage bill? Actions speak louder than words.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Just on other clubs. These 3 made similar losses in 2021-22.

Birmingham as we know got £9-10m for Bellingham and £1.5m minimum for his brother plus maybe selling Chong so we can perhaps push them down the list somewhat but not entirely.

QPR sold Dickie but haven't really sold anyone else yet. There was chatter of a £10m FFP hole but no major sale(s) yet. Unsure how far they have got as far as clearing the hole is concerned.

If West Brom had any issues and I doubt they did by tbis point, selling O'Shea for £7m as an academy product will certainly help. They can't go on a spending spree but I don't think they'll fail either .

Cardiff are the ones that interest me most currently. Like the first 2 they lost in the ballpark of £24-27m before tax. Sure they will have brought costs down last year but nobody has been sold and nobody of note since the few million profit for Moore mainly in January 2022- they've just signed two players albeit free and loan.

Those players they added last season won't have come cost free, all about the net fall in wages and amortisation not just the cost savings from departures. Even if we assume a reported wage cap of £12k for new signings I expect a lot will have been in the £5-10k per week bracket.

Wiki says their squad now has 30 players.

Leicester too might be interesting but if and when Barnes sold for £30-40m, academy product pure profit that could change it again. Hard to say with them at present.

Edited July 5, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

Are they banking on big Sala compensation or partial or full reversal of Impairment I wonder as part of their strategy.

[BLRed]

Still think we should take advantage of QPR financial position and take Iliad chair off their hands. Then know they need to sell him this summer and he has worked well with wells before. Would be a top signing for this level so maybe one on our list should Scott go

[Mr Popodopolous]

Think we have £2-3m left of headroom that includes wages, amortisation etc.

How much were you thinking? E.g. a £3m fee 3 year deal for £10k a week would be £1.52m added to the cost base.

We in theory if was a 4 year deal could splash up to £10m in a fee if our headroom £3m or £6m if our headroom £2m, assuming £10k per week wages of course.

Or £4.5-7.5m on fee if 3 year deal.

Clearly if we sell Scott that changes entirely.

Actually found a reference to FFP on a Cardiff forum.

Basically says they're assured not to fall foul again.. could be talking about the period ending 2022-23 obvs or perhaps they're conflating issues.

Edited July 5, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

To take it to its logical extreme however were they to win the Sala case they could spend untold amounts strengthening this season.

Was €110m they are arguing for, £94.25m!! This would clear FFP and leave an enormous unhindered budget for this level. Stratospheric, maybe unprecedented even with the prior losses.

The advantage that it could give them if it goes their way...

They could subject to amortisation increase their likely wage bill by £50m this season were that case to be won. May also mean they could keep it around that next year too if they didn't go up..they could have two huge bites.

Edited July 5, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, BLRed said:

Still think we should take advantage of QPR financial position and take Iliad chair off their hands. Then know they need to sell him this summer and he has worked well with wells before. Would be a top signing for this level so maybe one on our list should Scott go

Only performs at Loftus Road, rubbish away, fans say he is a bit of a “Homer”.

[chinapig]

27 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Only performs at Loftus Road, rubbish away, fans say he is a bit of a “Homer”.

Something... something... Troy Deeney.

[PHILINFRANCE]

6 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

To take it to its logical extreme however were they to win the Sala case they could spend untold amounts strengthening this season.

I don’t think there is any chance whatsoever that the Sala case will be settled this season and, even if it was, there is little chance of Cardiff winning the case, even less chance of being awarded €100M.

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 hour ago, PHILINFRANCE said:

I don’t think there is any chance whatsoever that the Sala case will be settled this season and, even if it was, there is little chance of Cardiff winning the case, even less chance of being awarded €100M.

Yeah, agreed. In which case Cardiff surely have an FFP issue but they don't seem to be acting like it.

[Rob26]

https://www.footballinsider247.com/revealed-sheffield-united-hit-by-48m-blow-as-documents-filed/

[chinapig]

19 minutes ago, Rob26 said:

https://www.footballinsider247.com/revealed-sheffield-united-hit-by-48m-blow-as-documents-filed/

£80m in liabilities to be paid in the next year puts a big hole in their Premier League money! Who knows what state they would be in if they hasn't been promoted?

[Mr Popodopolous]

Seen it suggested thst their transfer budget for this season is only £20m plus money generated from sales of course.

It'll be due to cash flow and debt liabilities not FFP which I believe they have few if any issues with.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Rare bit of good news or not wholly had news for Reading.

Their embargo list is down to one. Bad news, it's the HMRC stuff but the Loan Wage one was a new one.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Cardiff squad now at if not exceeding 30 if Meite joins.

Wjat do you think @Davefevs Their income is at or a bit above £26m per year, they are not seemingly selling players of note- us Semenyo, Stoke yes I criticise them Bursik, Collins, Souttar and a fair few so far released this summer, Birmingham Bellingham x 2 the main one a sell on and West Brom O'Shea.

Surely Cardiff are major candidates to fail given the £26m loss in 2021-22 also @Hxj .

I know there has been a churn but I don't see how exactly they are set to comply. They seem less hemmed in than we did.

[Davefevs]

32 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Cardiff squad now at if not exceeding 30 if Meite joins.

Wjat do you think @Davefevs Their income is at or a bit above £26m per year, they are not seemingly selling players of note- us Semenyo, Stoke yes I criticise them Bursik, Collins, Souttar and a fair few so far released this summer, Birmingham Bellingham x 2 the main one a sell on and West Brom O'Shea.

Surely Cardiff are major candidates to fail given the £26m loss in 2021-22 also @Hxj .

I know there has been a churn but I don't see how exactly they are set to comply. They seem less hemmed in than we did.

If they lost £20m in 22/23 and the same this season…then they would bust FFP this season.

Simplistic excel below:

I don’t see where a large sale comes from either.

[Mr Popodopolous]

15 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

If they lost £20m in 22/23 and the same this season…then they would bust FFP this season.

Simplistic excel below:

I don’t see where a large sale comes from either.

The Holdings seemed to have a loss of £26m for 2021-22, but still even with that in mind it feels like thete is a deificit to be made up still.

[Davefevs]

GA touches on FFP on 3:15 in.

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

Huddersfield Town accounts submitted but not yet available. Next couple of days maybe?

[Rob26]

On 06/07/2023 at 10:48, chinapig said:

£80m in liabilities to be paid in the next year puts a big hole in their Premier League money! Who knows what state they would be in if they hasn't been promoted?

is that in the latest accounts? because they have restructured all their loans in june to make them more manageable, so I doubt they have to pay 80m if thats the figure in the accounts. 

if they never went up I think they would of just got sold and the owner gets less to avoid funding cashflow or a sell off to drag them down the league

I'm guessing they have to pay back faster if go down though, but club is looking to be sold still, last I heard some other saudis were looking at them for 140m, so I'm thinking they get a take over this year as the risk of going down is too high and your looking at around 90m again in the championship

 

Edited July 10, 2023 by Rob26

[Rob26]

On 08/07/2023 at 19:59, Davefevs said:

GA touches on FFP on 3:15 in.

 

we just dropped 2m on their keeper

[Mr Popodopolous]

Huddersfield final year of Parachute Payments and Play-off Finalists made a small loss.

Albeit their wage bill was around £20m and their amortisation around £1.1m so they outperformed a fair number of sides financially vs performance on pitch wise. Income when its Parachute Payments down to Solidarity Payments will take a further hit but selling Toffolo and O'Brien will eat into some of that.

In short they'll be fine for FFP for the foreseeable IMO.

Edited July 11, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Davefevs]

 

Quite surprised by this.  Thought PL were trying to stop any clubs not in the PL having cat 1 status.

[Rob26]

4 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

 

Quite surprised by this.  Thought PL were trying to stop any clubs not in the PL having cat 1 status.

well if they want to spend money on players this is probs their only option until they fix ffp ,

im sure we (boro) have a cat 1 

Edited July 11, 2023 by Rob26

[Mr Popodopolous]

If they're going for Category One again it is a sign of commitment by the owners perhaps.

Although the EFL Embargo site still shows the HMRC Reporting issue so who knows.

Elsewhere, Sheffield Wednesday are or will be the last ones to release but if Chansiri was correct about £10m x 2 losses only in League One then they truly have nothing to fear FFP wise. Income will rise this season for one and they'll be fine for a while yet on current evidence.

Surprised they haven't released yet assuming they are all on the level and the loss claim was accurate. ie Maybe they were reduced markedly by cash injection which doesn't count at this level, purely guessing but the accounts when released will as ever reveal all..3 weeks left to do so to Companies House.

Edited July 11, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous