The Championship FFP Thread (Merged)

[Mr Popodopolous]

One bit to add.

Huddersfield could surely give it a bit of a go if they saw fit. I expect they have a reasonable amount of headroom, remember the O'Brien and Toffolo sales in 2022-23 (I expect that their income last year was £15-20m, substitute 3rd Year Parachutes for Solidarity Payments and general income a couple of million lower).

Wage bill and amortisation similar? Probably. It seems to me that they could give it a measured push across this and next year if they want to take FFP close to £39m.

They've never really shown much evidence of or inclination towards pushing against £39m adjusted losses though.

Edited July 11, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Davefevs]

13 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

One bit to add.

Huddersfield could surely give it a bit of a go if they saw fit. I expect they have a reasonable amount of headroom, remember the O'Brien and Toffolo sales in 2022-23 (I expect that their income last year was £15-20m, substitute 3rd Year Parachutes for Solidarity Payments and general income a couple of million lower).

Wage bill and amortisation similar? Probably. It seems to me that they could give it a measured push across this and next year if they want to take FFP close to £39m.

They've never really shown much evidence of or inclination towards pushing against £39m adjusted losses though.

Get the impression they are working to Lower Limit of £15m.

[Mr Popodopolous]

15 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Get the impression they are working to Lower Limit of £15m.

Feels that way yeah, new owner certainly has room to invest if he wants to go a big higher though.

Hoyle has usually run a tight ship, Hodgkinson did likewise, in part due to outstanding debt and his own lack of wealth (by football standards).

[Mr Popodopolous]

On the Academy Category stuff, also worth noting and I dunno if it is a surprise , that Derby managed to retain Category One during administration.

Now that they're being run sensibly we assume and Clowes is making up cash shortfalls again we assume, no issue but to retain during such an onerous time is unexpected? (Otoh Cashin, Bird, Knight, Sibley- very decent)!

Edited July 11, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Rob26]

 

[Davefevs]

Ta Rob.

They must be operating on lower limits of £15m v £39m, or they spent ridiculous amounts last season on wages.  Fees weren’t that high, but I guess signing on fees and wages might’ve been OTT to attract the players they did?

[Mr Popodopolous]

3 hours ago, Rob26 said:

 

Thanks Rob.

3 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Ta Rob.

They must be operating on lower limits of £15m v £39m, or they spent ridiculous amounts last season on wages.  Fees weren’t that high, but I guess signing on fees and wages might’ve been OTT to attract the players they did?

I recall an interview on Talksport last year whereby the Hull owner basically said he'd trebled the wage bill??

Albeit Hull under the Allams were quite low payers and definitely low spenders in their latter years.

More like hamstrung rather than in trouble, they did sell Lewis-Potter for £15-20m last summer too iirc, falling into 2022-23 as it did. Perhaps as you also say Dave the lower limit or somewhere between that and £39m is what they are targeting.

Edited July 12, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Rob26]

https://www.expressandstar.com/sport/football/wolverhampton-wanderers-fc/2023/07/11/wolves-secure-99m-government-loan/ 

wolves borrowing from the goverment, presumably to pay off current loans to the usual football vultures

would of thought football clubs be exempt from this, gonna be like opening up the flood gates now :laugh: 

 

[Davefevs]

33 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Thanks Rob.

I recall an interview on Talksport last year whereby the Hull owner basically aid he'd trebled the wage bill??

Albeit Hull under the Allams were quite low payers and definitely low spenders in their latter years.

More like hamstrung rather than in trouble, they did sell Lewis-Potter for £15-20m last summer too iirc, falling into 2022-23 as it did. Perhaps as you also say Dave the lower limit or somewhere between that and £39m is what they are targeting.

I’d forgotten the KLP sale.

[Mr Popodopolous]

One more thought.

Could Sheffield Wednesday be working at the £15m level? Or somewhere between £15-39m.

It would be quite a change of tack from Chansiri given his driving ambition in the past and the fact that they apparently only lost £10m x 2 on each of the last two seasons and their revenue will rise this year through a mix of ticket prices rising yet again and higher TV revenue.

Then lop off the £2.5m Covid allowance for 2021-22. Maybe £2.5-3m per year in allowables.

Chansiri seems not to have put in much equity at all lately.

[Mr Popodopolous]

I've been a big critic of Derby under Mel Morris but without knowing about it in detail, I applaud the governance!

Not strictly FFP related but seems positive all the same, very different to Mel Morris I assume.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Although is there a bit of revisionism from some Derby fans?

How strongly would they have raised concerns and sought to hold Mel Morris to account in 2019, 2020? Not releasing accounts post April 2019 will have limited this but what interventions would they have made or sought to make anyway.

Mel Morris poured a lot of cash in too, things went very badly wrong there but what attempted interventionism would we have seen?

Edited July 12, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

Now this surprises me. Given their strong line on FFP etc, this surprises me that they have ownership issues.

Although Birmingham didn't get particularly heavily punished over it, a fine and warning was it.

Barnsley claim to have instigated the review which took them to this point in which case they probably have little to worry about if true.

Edited July 13, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

Other news, Reading are also out of embargo.

Overdue tax bill has been paid.

Edited July 13, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

Oh eyebrow raising. One for you @Owl Visiting

Can't begin to unpick but read reports of a potential £30m loss in 2023-24?? Chansiri reportedly said this, guess Sheffield Wednesday have a blockbuster last 7 weeks before the end of the summer window lined up.

Until the accounts are out for last year:

Club Group:

Sheffield Wednesday (Club)

Sheffield 2 Limited (Parent or top co above club).

Stadium Group:

Sheffield 3 Limited (Stadium Company Owner of Hillsborough).

Sheffield 5 Limited (Company that owns the Stadium Company)

All due end of July.

Then it's really quite hard to say.

Edited July 13, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[W-S-M Seagull]

On 06/07/2023 at 23:39, Mr Popodopolous said:

Cardiff squad now at if not exceeding 30 if Meite joins.

Wjat do you think @Davefevs Their income is at or a bit above £26m per year, they are not seemingly selling players of note- us Semenyo, Stoke yes I criticise them Bursik, Collins, Souttar and a fair few so far released this summer, Birmingham Bellingham x 2 the main one a sell on and West Brom O'Shea.

Surely Cardiff are major candidates to fail given the £26m loss in 2021-22 also @Hxj .

I know there has been a churn but I don't see how exactly they are set to comply. They seem less hemmed in than we did.

Also heavily rumoured to be signing Ramsey.

[Mr Popodopolous]

6 hours ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

Also heavily rumoured to be signing Ramsey.

Yeah seen that. Ramsey given he started there maybe would take a very low wage.

Still don't see any cast iron confirmation from the Nice end that they've actually cancelled his contract- Cardiff cannot pay fees etc this window of course so would need to loan him without a loan fee or add him on a free which would need Nice to agree to cancel his contract.

10th July granted.

https://www.ogcnice.com/en/article/124940/the-first-international-players-return.html

If I was Nice, I'm sure I'd be looking to get a fee or loan fee from somewhere if he's not in the plans...or if he is because he played 34 times last year.

Edited July 14, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

Fined due to FFP.. 

Man United!?

By UEFA and it I assume is the period ending 2022-23...actually seems it is the period ending 2021-22!

However this was a favourable cycle for them, link in The Sun originally but the Daily Mirror now.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/breaking-man-utd-fine-uefa-30467784

This is pre-dating their £149m pre tax loss in 2021-22, ie includes Covid losses which were only allocated as €15m bizarrely and if that's the case then Stoke, and potentially Nottingham Forest and Fulham need looking at further. I'll have to find some kinda Settlement or judgement.

You could absolutely revisit Everton based on this, whereas Aston Villa, Leicester and Wolves are okay to 2022 and probably 2023. 

Implications for the EFL @Davefevs @Hxj   Looked at hsong this criteria, Stoke, Nottingham Forest and maybe Fulham would all look interesting.

Edited July 14, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Davefevs]

10 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Fined due to FFP.. 

Man United!?

By UEFA and it I assume is the period ending 2022-23...actually seems it is the period ending 2021-22!

However this was a favourable cycle for them, link in The Sun originally but the Daily Mirror now.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/breaking-man-utd-fine-uefa-30467784

This is pre-dating their £149m pre tax loss in 2021-22, ie includes Covid losses which were only allocated as €15m bizarrely and if that's the case then Stoke, and potentially Nottingham Forest and Fulham need looking at further. I'll have to find some kinda Settlement or judgement.

You could absolutely revisit Everton based on this, whereas Aston Villa, Leicester and Wolves look okay to 2022 and probably 2023.

Implications for the EFL @Davefevs @Hxj   Looked at hsong this criteria, Stoke, Nottingham Forest and maybe Fulham would all look interesting.

I don’t believe EFL nor PL clubs are subject to the UEFA FFP stuff unless they are competing in Europe….it’s why even the PL limits are different to UEFA.  I’m sure @Hxjwill correct me and make me look foolish!

[Mr Popodopolous]

7 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I don’t believe EFL nor PL clubs are subject to the UEFA FFP stuff unless they are competing in Europe….it’s why even the PL limits are different to UEFA.  I’m sure @Hxjwill correct me and make me look foolish!

Yeah it can just be for those ones, just wonder if the League might look again at some Covid claims in the wake.

I still query transfer market ones e.g. I don't like the Nottingham Forest £12m Projection for 2021-22 and I expect the Stoke one is suspect. Fulham have huge losses but moving between divisions can complicate.

Bournemouth I wonder to a small extent too.

Edited July 14, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Davefevs]

2 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Yeah it can just be for those ones, just wonder if the League might look again at some Covid claims in the wake.

I still query transfer market ones e.g. I don't like the Nottingham Forest £12m Projection for 2021-22.

Only if they read this forum!

[Mr Popodopolous]

This bit confuses the hell out of me, how on earth can PSG have complied to 2022 given the size of the breach.

Yes I know, their owner Ceferin ties but what sort of target were they given?? 

They lost €375m pre-tax in that year...I think they hit through it by €200-250m when you consider past profits, Covid add-backs and the €30m limit.

I will try to start to unpick the past PSG nonsense again..they're miles and miles and miles beyond to 2022.

This was it to 2021. The 2022 is behind a substack and of course they're a multi club so maybe some wages and amortisation can be offset to that but I mean..words (almost) fail me.

Edited July 14, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Owl Visiting]

18 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Oh eyebrow raising. One for you @Owl Visiting

Can't begin to unpick but read reports of a potential £30m loss in 2023-24?? Chansiri reportedly said this, guess Sheffield Wednesday have a blockbuster last 7 weeks before the end of the summer window lined up.

Until the accounts are out for last year:

Club Group:

Sheffield Wednesday (Club)

Sheffield 2 Limited (Parent or top co above club).

Stadium Group:

Sheffield 3 Limited (Stadium Company Owner of Hillsborough).

Sheffield 5 Limited (Company that owns the Stadium Company)

All due end of July.

Then it's really quite hard to say.

It's all very worrying at the moment, the club announced yesterday that they're introducing 10 year season tickets again, cash up front. Whilst it's a good deal for any individual fan that's lucky enough to be able to afford it, it's just more kicking the can down the road and spending tomorrow's money. 

As for the 30 million losses I haven't a clue why it's that much, I know Hillsborough is an expensive old stadium to run but I'm not sure how that is a factor. I imagine the wage bill is pretty modest by Championship standards too, only really Bannan on high wages left at the club.

Rumours have been around for a while that Chansiri has little money left to put in, and his behaviour over the last few weeks looks very much that way. 

Only one signing so far, and that's a loan player from last season, as it stands we're actually weaker than when in League One when you take into account the players that were released. 

Edited July 14, 2023 by Owl Visiting

[Mr Popodopolous]

7 minutes ago, Owl Visiting said:

It's all very worrying at the moment, the club announced yesterday that they're introducing 10 year season tickets again, cash up front. Whilst it's a good deal for any individual fan that's lucky enough to be able to afford it, it's just more kicking the can down the road and spending tomorrow's money. 

As for the 30 million losses I haven't a clue why it's that much, I know Hillsborough is an expensive old stadium to run but I'm not sure how that is a factor. I imagine the wage bill is pretty modest by Championship standards too, only really Bannan on high wages left at the club.

Rumours have been around for a while that Chansiri has little money left to put in, and his behaviour over the last few weeks looks very much that way. 

Only one signing so far, and that's a loan player from last season, as it stands we're actually weaker than when in League One when you take into account the players that were released. 

I'm sorry to hear that, 10 year season tickets is good for cash flow short term maybe for planning long term but smacks of gambling really. What sort of take up was there in the past and this before Covid and inflation etc. Borrowing against the future.

Agreed. I don't believe the £30m figure for one moment. Makes no sense whatsoever.

Unless he is going to have a late late splurge and put it all on red for a **** or Bust promotion push. That would be a fairly disastrous idea IMO and seen no evidence but is it rhetorically possible.

That's worrying. Self sufficiency is a good thing on one level but at this level of football it can be a problem. Or at least consign a side to the bottom 3rd. The loan(s) against Hillsborough hopefully he can cover and clear. Accounts are due out at end of July for all 4 companies so not long now to get a handle on it.

I thought it looking at it, have a weaker squad so far than you came up with, certainly depth wise. I thought it to some extent when we came up in 2014-15 and had a quiet summer but nothing quite like that.

Edited July 14, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Davefevs]

2 hours ago, Owl Visiting said:

It's all very worrying at the moment, the club announced yesterday that they're introducing 10 year season tickets again, cash up front. Whilst it's a good deal for any individual fan that's lucky enough to be able to afford it, it's just more kicking the can down the road and spending tomorrow's money. 

As for the 30 million losses I haven't a clue why it's that much, I know Hillsborough is an expensive old stadium to run but I'm not sure how that is a factor. I imagine the wage bill is pretty modest by Championship standards too, only really Bannan on high wages left at the club.

Rumours have been around for a while that Chansiri has little money left to put in, and his behaviour over the last few weeks looks very much that way. 

Only one signing so far, and that's a loan player from last season, as it stands we're actually weaker than when in League One when you take into account the players that were released. 

As you say good for Cashflow….but only gets distributed into the accounts as as when games are played, so only a 1/10 of the revenue goes into each year.

[Mr Popodopolous]

A genuine q on Chansiri btw.

Does he not have other ideas on revenue boosting. I know cash flow vs revenue etc but external commercial opportunities, corporate revenue etc. I know local economies may differ but he's got to do better than  he has surely? Matchday revenue, events?

His strength seems to be get as much as you can put of the fans especially through ticket prices, season ticket prices, and some of his own company sponsors at Fair Value of course.

[Owl Visiting]

31 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

As you say good for Cashflow….but only gets distributed into the accounts as as when games are played, so only a 1/10 of the revenue goes into each year.

Is that right? I didn't know that. There's an argument currently going on Owlstalk about the reason you can't pay with a credit card. One guy is adamant that it's because the credit card would likely expire during the 10 year period, and others calling it a cash grab.

For those that can afford it though it's a good deal because the 10 years don't start counting down until we reach the Premier League, so in theory if we didn't get there for another 10 seasons then it'll last for 20 years.

If you sit on the South stand it'll set you back 8 grand, and on top of that you'd be gambling that any future owner honours the details above.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Karlan Grant reportedly of interest to Cardiff on loan, how exactly is FFP being enforced for them. He won't be bargain basement.

I don't think it'll take them up hut I really question their upcoming 3 years to 2023-24.

Edited July 14, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

Leicester, although fair to say their fans on forum seem sceptical. How well they understand EFL FFP I question, £83m adjusted Upper Loss Limit to 2023-24.

They are also set to sign a GK for £6m..a £92.4m pre tax loss in Year 1 or the present cycle ie 2021-22 to now.

 

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, Owl Visiting said:

Is that right? I didn't know that. There's an argument currently going on Owlstalk about the reason you can't pay with a credit card. One guy is adamant that it's because the credit card would likely expire during the 10 year period, and others calling it a cash grab.

For those that can afford it though it's a good deal because the 10 years don't start counting down until we reach the Premier League, so in theory if we didn't get there for another 10 seasons then it'll last for 20 years.

If you sit on the South stand it'll set you back 8 grand, and on top of that you'd be gambling that any future owner honours the details above.